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Roman Stone Cutting Machines


Thanos5150
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Very interesting. Being trained in mechanical engineering, I can easily see that this could represent a stone, or wood, saw system.

I also noted that it is believed this is from the early 3rd century AD. And those are Roman letters, I think. 

Thus, I think this could be just as advertised. I see no reason the Romans couldn't have built such a device.

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21 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Very interesting. Being trained in mechanical engineering, I can easily see that this could represent a stone, or wood, saw system.

You know that up in our neck of the woods there were some water powered sawmills in the early days. Water powered a saw or multiple saws and sometimes a ratchet system timed to advance the log timed with the saw stroke.  1500 years after the Romans, but they would have recognized the technology. 

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On 1/23/2021 at 11:51 PM, Thanos5150 said:

A stone relief of a water-powered stone saw at Hierapolis, Phrygia.

A relief of a water-powered stone saw mill on a sarcophagus at Hierapolis and its implications

 

Video: LOST ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY REVEALED! - MECHANICAL Granite Machine SAW - nearly 2000 yrs old!

Note the simple saw at the 3:49 mark and size of block just two men are cutting with it. I imagine the truss saws the Dynastic Egyptians used were very similar. 

Granite column at Ephesus (bottom picture above):

hqdefault.jpg

Granite column, Roman era Baalbek:

34.jpg

This granite column above is often cited a an example of the work of "advanced technology" yet it is no different than the cuts made on the granite column by the Ephesus saw.  

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Was wondering what the reason would be for cutting into a column towards the centre that way.  Would definitely make some nice granite sheets.

Regards,

MDagger

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4 hours ago, MDagger said:

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Was wondering what the reason would be for cutting into a column towards the centre that way.  Would definitely make some nice granite sheets.

Regards,

MDagger

Practice for a new crew, a contest perhaps or 'extra' duty for those who were undisciplined or worse - marred a good piece by doing something wrong. We had a tradition to have crews that failed their inspections to dig regulation perfect machine gun positions or place practice mines, etc, punish them while doing some useful practice.

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5 hours ago, MDagger said:

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Was wondering what the reason would be for cutting into a column towards the centre that way.  Would definitely make some nice granite sheets.

Regards,

MDagger

As mentioned by Hans, while cut too deep, it may be a practice piece for a Roman/Corinthian fluted column. Just a brief photographic reference:

https://quatr.us/greeks/what-is-a-fluted-column.htm

.

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11 hours ago, MDagger said:

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Was wondering what the reason would be for cutting into a column towards the centre that way.  Would definitely make some nice granite sheets.

You are welcome.

At this time the Romans produced large amounts of marble veneer, relatively thin sheets of marble they they used to cover brick or even concrete. These are not individual cuts but thought to be part of a 4 parallel blade saw that could cut multiple veneer slabs at once. They may have reused these scrap column drums make use of them as veneers or tiles. 

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There's a Russian Tube channel, they used copper tubing with corundum and water (all of which known the them at the time) to drill holes into granite. And the holes display all the same characteristics (tapered bore, concentric rings,etc) that all the conspiracy theory people seem to think could only be done by high technology. They did the same thing with copper saws using corundum and water, as well as using granite pieces to carve perfect vases,boxes etc that others claim to be alien tech.

Let's not forget that 99.9% of the pyramid is made out of easily split and sawn limestone. And was built upon an existing rock formation/hill, of which makes up a minimum of 20% and most likely well over 30% of the total volume of the Great Pyramid.

Edited by DaveAzi
Adding limestone
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4 hours ago, DaveAzi said:

There's a Russian Tube channel, they used copper tubing with corundum and water (all of which known the them at the time) to drill holes into granite. And the holes display all the same characteristics (tapered bore, concentric rings,etc) that all the conspiracy theory people seem to think could only be done by high technology. They did the same thing with copper saws using corundum and water, as well as using granite pieces to carve perfect vases,boxes etc that others claim to be alien tech.

Let's not forget that 99.9% of the pyramid is made out of easily split and sawn limestone. And was built upon an existing rock formation/hill, of which makes up a minimum of 20% and most likely well over 30% of the total volume of the Great Pyramid.

You shouldn’t lump all people that have questions into “conspiracy people”. I, myself, have questions as to the precision of cuts. And while I don’t consider myself a conspiracy person perhaps you guys would. I don’t know.

 

I do a lot of woodwork now that I’m older. I have so many modern tools it is crazy.... and I do understand a great deal of trigonometry, I still marvel at the precision of cuts. Do I think it was aliens? Not really; but I have tried to  never rule out possibilities after living a life as a researcher. 


I think this forum is usually too much of extremes.... people that think “aliens” and then the other side of people that think that the before mentioned people should be ridiculed and tormented and made fun of.

 

 

It has made for great reading over the years. Great entertainment. So for my part- I thank you all.

Edited by Nobu
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I do woodworking too. But looking at what was accomplished before we had all the fun and fancy tools I'm impressed and amazed and humbled... But I'm not left imagining the ancients had more than long developed skills and basic tools. 

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19th/early 20th century granite quarries:

wOL7EwKJ0pr8SkGAonK9YMkPV9m1QxqreSn5MDNX

9c61bad0bfdee445a7ba5f67d15fc3c3.jpg

SHM%2009726%20-%20Quarry,%20Rockville%20

ba3db22f3b617201aca2971c457828af.jpg

V4Nf9GeWK8xKEZ5VeOAUeQ9vGLltUc6O3-KSi7_Y

ZPYwdDYAypYW7WbP2MZITkOxedQ1GRp4aGTkUml0

ccd60a01e6d2682161cb223a17aa747f.jpg

Pick-axes, chisels, hammers. Simple cranes, rope. Ladders scaffolding.  

4709_900.jpg

None of the tools used in the 19th century are any different than what was used by the Romans or any other ancient culture for that matter. Pick-axe. Hammers. Chisels. Pry bars. Simple cranes. Rope. Ladders. Scaffolding. Pulleys. Sleds. Beasts of burden. Drills, lathes, saws. These are the tools that built our world of stone from the most ancient times to today. There is fundamentally ZERO difference from a 19th century quarry to a Roman or ancient Egyptian quarry. 

Roman granite bath tubs:

romanbathtub.jpg

a086ae1a7721d9d039af270f2fb2fe7e.jpg

 

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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Brihadisvara Temple c. 1000AD with its 80+ ton capstone:

Brihadeeswara+Temple.jpg

How did they get it almost 200ft in the air, nearly the height of G3, perfectly placed on top of this narrow "pyramid"? The temple in it's entirety is estimated to total 130,000 tons of granite moved over 50 miles with several other blocks weighing upwards of 20 tons and another 80 ton block used as a foundation piece. 

These are just a few of the amazing structures built by the Indians during this period, nearly 1,000yrs before the 19th century photos, all made of magical Lost Civilization granite: 

thanjavur.jpg?w=620

800px-Carved_pillars_in_the_Srirangam_te

Rameshwaram+Ramanathapuram+%2528Ramnad%2

 

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On 1/26/2021 at 10:31 PM, Tatetopa said:

You know that up in our neck of the woods there were some water powered sawmills in the early days. Water powered a saw or multiple saws and sometimes a ratchet system timed to advance the log timed with the saw stroke.  1500 years after the Romans, but they would have recognized the technology. 

Batsto still used water until they broke her back a few years ago. I'd take water over 3 phase or diesel any day. You can't stop a water powered saw. You can stall a 671 diesel or burn up a electric motor with sappy log.  

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1 hour ago, Piney said:

You can stall a 671 diesel or burn up a electric motor with sappy log.  

I have seen both of those.  I worked on a diesel powered mill set up on two trailers for a time.  When things were winding up or down, the deck would vibrate and it felt like being on a destroyer, sounded like a tank though.  Hope you brought some woo with you, it has been in short supply lately.

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I was just wondering what all those pretty pictures of the sites a couple of posts up have to do with saws never mind saws in Egypt as there was no documentation to suggest that there was a relationship. Nice pics though and thanks.:tu:

mccr8

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On 1/24/2021 at 4:51 AM, Thanos5150 said:

A stone relief of a water-powered stone saw at Hierapolis, Phrygia.

A relief of a water-powered stone saw mill on a sarcophagus at Hierapolis and its implications

ADbJRnfaykHN8-lQz3hyu4UlUN5_2cn7jZk3zEJS

img-4-small700.jpg

Video: LOST ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY REVEALED! - MECHANICAL Granite Machine SAW - nearly 2000 yrs old!

Note the simple saw at the 3:49 mark and size of block just two men are cutting with it. I imagine the truss saws the Dynastic Egyptians used were very similar. 

Granite column at Ephesus (bottom picture above):

hqdefault.jpg

Granite column, Roman era Baalbek:

34.jpg

This granite column above is often cited a an example of the work of "advanced technology" yet it is no different than the cuts made on the granite column by the Ephesus saw.  

Where did BAE Systems get the idea from for their advanced cutting machine? If you dont know about that one they use water to cut hard metal and diamond. High pressure water that is mixed with sand. 

Imagine a stone water vessel they fill with water, and then drop a heavy stone block onto to ramp up the pressure. Then they pull the stopper out causing water to shoot at high pressure down a narrow pipe while at the same time feeding sand into it.

Right there you have a way Egyptians or Aztecs could have cut hard rock without being technologically advanced.

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6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 

I have seen both of those.  I worked on a diesel powered mill set up on two trailers for a time.  When things were winding up or down, the deck would vibrate and it felt like being on a destroyer, sounded like a tank though.  Hope you brought some woo with you, it has been in short supply lately.

I use to love when we fired up the big 3 phase. The lights would dim and it sounded like a starship. Cobb's still runs a 671. They're sawyer got his hand stuck between the table and blade and he was lucky it stalled. Our Lane would of tore his hand off.

No woo. Been too busy running the flower and plant operation and helping my friend's widow with his, now her forestry business. 

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Basalt stonework from the Urartian site of Cavustepe in Turkey dating to the 8th century BC:

cavustepe1-1.jpg

6088966918_c945de922c_b.jpg

Basalt, c. 1200BC Hittite temple of Ain Dara in Syria:

1438606695_800_600_1438606694.jpg

efed1455f791156d17c6ada8e163f463.jpg

640px-Ain_Dara_Alp1.jpg

This lion weighs upwards of 30 tons and is the only one remaining of a pair. 

177867e46ab26b31e3f61a94538b8a51.jpg

Dating of this site isn't exact ranging from the 13th-10th centuries. Given the substantial nature of the site, however, it would stand to reason it was built closer to the height of the Hittite empire which would have been the 14th-13th centuries. Of note is that the 13th century was also a period of significant and well documented conflict with Egypt, particularly the time of Ramses II.

Both basalt and granite rate about a 6-7 on the mohs scale meaning there is no difference in the tooling and effort required to carve these statues and blocks, yet there they are. More handiwork of the Lost Civilization? Other than iron, which at the time was often poorly made and inferior to bronze, there was no difference in stone working technology in 1200BC compared to the 3rd millennium BC.

Edited by Thanos5150
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On 1/30/2021 at 8:42 AM, Thanos5150 said:

Brihadisvara Temple c. 1000AD with its 80+ ton capstone:

Brihadeeswara+Temple.jpg

 

One thing I would say about Indian stone working is that it is absolutely stupefying in scope, volume, complexity and difficulty of work. A wonder of the ancient world on par with the accomplishments of the Dynastic Egyptians. 

Barabar Caves c. 3 century BC.

Ellora and Ajanta caves, late BC early AD times:

ellora-caves-india-mountain-temples-17.j

10.jpg

On and on it goes for a solid 1000+yrs.  

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  • 1 month later...

I’ve re-read all of this tonight. Wish you guys would post more threads like this. I learned a lot. A lot of you take your knowledge for granted and think a thread like this is dull. It isn’t.  Thanks

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  • 1 year later...
 

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

How a backyard pendulum saw sliced into a Bronze Age mystery.

hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEWCMQBEG5IWvKriq

 

Pendulum Saw in Action

Example of cutting limestone using bronze blades: 

pendulum-saw_04.jpg

Ancient Egypt:

 bild6-5.jpg

Here

Here

Making the Lion Gate Relief at Mycenae: Tool Marks and Foreign Influence:

Quote

This article considers the stoneworking techniques and implements that were employed in the production of the Lion Gate relief at Mycenae, as deduced from tool marks preserved on the sculpture. Examination of these traces has revealed previously undetected details while highlighting the indispensable roles of tubular drills and saws—especially a large pendulum saw and a smaller convex blade—in the manufacturing process. A new illustration of the relief depicts the location of all discernible tool marks and other minute features, most of which are hidden to the on-ground viewer. The analytical conclusions from this investigation substantially advance our understanding of the monument’s construction. The date of the relief and sequence of its production, as well as unexpected evidence for repair during the Bronze Age, are now clear. Moreover, evaluation of the extant tool marks suggests that the relief’s composition should be reconstructed as heraldic lions turning their now-missing heads backward. Finally, this article argues that specific stonecutting methods evident on the relief have strong parallels in central Anatolia, so the prospect of Hittite and Mycenaean interaction, particularly on a technological level, is appraised.

With minor modifications this simple pendulum saw could also be used for drilling akin to a bow drill.

Estimates of the larger saw sizes used in Egypt for some of the more enigmatic stonework range from 13-30ft which would be significantly less if recalculated substituting the arc of the swing. 

This is a paper by archaeologist Jurgen Seeher cited in the article of his experiments with a pendulum saw and drilling: HERE
Unfortunately in German and Google translate is butchering it. From the article, however:

Quote

 

In a 2007 paper published in German, Seeher concluded that there was a better option than his pendulum saw: a long, curved saw attached to a wooden bar and pulled back and forth by two people, like a loggers’ saw. A loggers’ saw could have produced curved marks on palace stones of ancient Hittite society, which existed at the same time as the Mycenaeans in what is now Turkey.

Unlike their Greek neighbors, Hittites did not construct pillars and gateways out of conglomerate. But a handheld, two-man saw would have enabled something a pendulum saw could not: precise cutting of conglomerate blocks from different angles, Seeher says.

A handheld saw moved by two men is much more under control than a free-hanging pendulum,” he says.

Seeher has archaeological evidence on his side. Double-handled loggers’ saws have been excavated at sites from the Late Bronze Age Minoan society on Crete. Hittites and Mycenaeans, contemporaries of the Minoans, could easily have modified that design to cut stone instead of wood, Seeher proposes. They would have had to substitute rock-grinding straight edges for wood-cutting serrated edges.

Blackwell disagrees. He is convinced that Mycenaean craft workers trained for years to operate pendulum saws, just as skilled artisans like his dad go through a long apprenticeship to learn their trade. Mycenaeans may have worked in teams that took turns using pendulum saws to cut conglomerate into palace structures, he speculates. Those workers probably used highly abrasive emery sand from the Greek island of Naxos to amplify the grinding power of their swinging saws, Wright adds.

 

Personally, I think the pendulum saw is on the right track and would have given the greater mechanical advantage for the harder stones.

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