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jmccr8

[Skeptics] Is religion still relevant ?

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jmccr8

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

In this thread if you are a believer you must respond in the believers thread and not in this one. If you post in a thread and are not a skeptic I will ask you to go to the other thread and ask for your post to be removed from his one.

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XenoFish

One of your threads got nuked.

I was going to go up to bat for the believers for a change.

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jmccr8

Hi Xeno

I see that so I guess this will be skeptics only then.:lol: I thought it would be worth a shot to see how people with similar positions inter-act with each other and if they can stay in the appropriate thread to discuss a topic, guess we will never know.:huh:

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Saru

I've renamed the threads to make the titles/intention clearer - not sure if this will work but we can give it a go.

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jmccr8
Just now, Saru said:

I've renamed the threads to make the titles/intention clearer - not sure if this will work but we can give it a go.

Thank you Saru much appreciate your willingness to explore this avenue of thought.:tu:

jmccr8

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Desertrat56

 

15 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

In this thread if you are a believer you must respond in the believers thread and not in this one. If you post in a thread and are not a skeptic I will ask you to go to the other thread and ask for your post to be removed from his one.

My opinion that any kind of ism is divisive, so yes a lot of turmoil in the world today could be overcome by evolving past attachment to everyone insisiting one's personal beliefs are the only "truth".  I don't agree with the way you worded your OP, we are always going to have personal beliefs, it is part of being human, but we can evolve past the point of needing to be right or needing to control others.  We can also evolve into self responsibility that is lacking in a lot of people with a religious mindset.

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jmccr8
Just now, Desertrat56 said:

 

My opinion that any kind of ism is divisive, so yes a lot of turmoil in the world today could be overcome by evolving past attachment to everyone insisiting one's personal beliefs are the only "truth".  I don't agree with the way you worded your OP, we are always going to have personal beliefs, it is part of being human, but we can evolve past the point of needing to be right or needing to control others.  We can also evolve into self responsibility that is lacking in a lot of people with a religious mindset.

Hi Desertrat

Thanks for joining in. Yes my wording may have been been lacking but I think that it is sufficient for our purposes. Personally I think that if differing religions could set aside their differences that mankind in general would benefit greatly and see religion in much the same sense as national pride. 

jmccr8

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spartan max2

I'm not quite sure of the question. Are you asking if we can progress as society with religion or if we need to remove religion to truly progress?

Edit: might be useful to provide the link to the threads in the OP for each. 

Edited by spartan max2

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zep73

Belief/faith is the rejection of knowledge. At least it has been so for the last hundred years or two.

Edited by zep73
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odas
21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

In this thread if you are a believer you must respond in the believers thread and not in this one. If you post in a thread and are not a skeptic I will ask you to go to the other thread and ask for your post to be removed from his one.

Tough question and not an easy answer to it either way.

When it comes to religion I am a believer and a skeptic at the same time. Religious perspective will not contribute to overcome any divisions. To move forward for equal standarts of life for everyone we do need to overcome personal beliefs. However, going towards this direction is actually confirming Karl and Friedrich.

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Desertrat56
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

Thanks for joining in. Yes my wording may have been been lacking but I think that it is sufficient for our purposes. Personally I think that if differing religions could set aside their differences that mankind in general would benefit greatly and see religion in much the same sense as national pride. 

jmccr8

I totally agree with that, specifically the Judaic religions that fight amongst themselves constantly and deny they all come from the same roots religion.

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jmccr8
5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I totally agree with that, specifically the Judaic religions that fight amongst themselves constantly and deny they all come from the same roots religion.

Hi Desertrat

So what would you suggest as a means of unifying people to step past their beliefs(not abandon) to create a world with less tension?

jmccr8

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jmccr8
7 minutes ago, odas said:

Tough question and not an easy answer to it either way.

When it comes to religion I am a believer and a skeptic at the same time. Religious perspective will not contribute to overcome any divisions. To move forward for equal standarts of life for everyone we do need to overcome personal beliefs. However, going towards this direction is actually confirming Karl and Friedrich.

Hi Odas

Thank you for speaking up and saying that you are both, but would like to know how you wish to identify with which thread as this is for skeptics so if you chose this thread you cannot use an argument based on belief or discuss from that position. If you choose to post in this thread then you cannot respond in the other thread seeing as how we are just starting out I would like to make it clear that people should select a thread that reflects your personal position.

jmccr8

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Liquid Gardens
26 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

I'm not sure that it ever can, but there are a lot of 'religious perspectives' that include in them great ideas, maybe the only ideas, that might work.  Not the supernatural stuff, but the good parts of how should everyone view, feel about, and treat other people.  If religious people really acted like they loved their enemies, as many have been specifically instructed, I really doubt we'd see the level of conflict as we do. Too many people understand what 'don't criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes' means only when it's referring to their own shoes, and I think that may be tough to do when you are part of a religion that has been around for centuries yet has evolved so glacially as our world has changed.

As far as religion being relevant, definitely yes, simply by virtue of the sheer number of believers if nothing else, so unfortunately the need to push back against the bad stuff isn't likely to end soon.  There's a semi-famous quote pointing out the potentially dangerous situation we find ourselves in as humans from an evolutionary perspective, it's something like, 'from a biological perspective, homo sapiens has barely evolved in the short time it's been around - this has resulted in incredible and destructive 21st Century technology being placed in the hands of humans with Stone age emotions'.  I think when you then glom onto that religious ideas that are centuries-to-millennia old that people are sometimes encouraged to be zealous about, you may compound that already existing issue.

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

So what would you suggest as a means of unifying people to step past their beliefs(not abandon) to create a world with less tension?

jmccr8

I think the forefathers of the U.S. tried to do that by separating church and state.  And making sure any religious group was not subject to discrimination.   The group that signed the constitution were a mixed group, not all of them practicing a religion.    I think there are a lot of things in this society that are designed for division, religion is just one.   There is divisiveness based on ancestry, looks, education, etc.   So eliminating religion in the mix would not solve all the problems.

I did notice something interesting watching a Fox television show called 911.  That show is pushing all the boundaries of prejudice, a white catholic man (who is an ex addict) in love with a black baptist woman (whose ex husband is gay), and the religion is mentioned in a way that says "we still believe in the same god".  Then there are other "groups" represented and all the characters treat each other like family.    Each show has a theme.  It is a totally different kind of programming than what is typical on network television where they have shows aimed at each group, with some random token character to represent some other group.   We all need to start thinking like the characters on the 911 television show, because the divisiveness is not working except for the corporations that like to take everything away from us all.

So did I leave anyone out?   We don't have to get rid of religion, we have to recognize divisive lies and address those, no matter what the subject is.

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not sure that it ever can, but there are a lot of 'religious perspectives' that include in them great ideas, maybe the only ideas, that might work.  Not the supernatural stuff, but the good parts of how should everyone view, feel about, and treat other people.  If religious people really acted like they loved their enemies, as many have been specifically instructed, I really doubt we'd see the level of conflict as we do. Too many people understand what 'don't criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes' means only when it's referring to their own shoes, and I think that may be tough to do when you are part of a religion that has been around for centuries yet has evolved so glacially as our world has changed.

As far as religion being relevant, definitely yes, simply by virtue of the sheer number of believers if nothing else, so unfortunately the need to push back against the bad stuff isn't likely to end soon.  There's a semi-famous quote pointing out the potentially dangerous situation we find ourselves in as humans from an evolutionary perspective, it's something like, 'from a biological perspective, homo sapiens has barely evolved in the short time it's been around - this has resulted in incredible and destructive 21st Century technology being placed in the hands of humans with Stone age emotions'.  I think when you then glom onto that religious ideas that are centuries-to-millennia old that people are sometimes encouraged to be zealous about, you may compound that already existing issue.

Hi Liquid Gardens

Do you think that if people saw their religious beliefs as personal and not something to project on others as a standard of acceptance that things would change for the better. I agree that the aspects of good living promoted in religions is a good thing and is very personal but if you see someone that lives up to the same standard of humility should you reject them just because they do not believe in god?

jmccr8

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jmccr8
9 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think the forefathers of the U.S. tried to do that by separating church and state.  And making sure any religious group was not subject to discrimination.   The group that signed the constitution were a mixed group, not all of them practicing a religion.    I think there are a lot of things in this society that are designed for division, religion is just one.   There is divisiveness based on ancestry, looks, education, etc.   So eliminating religion in the mix would not solve all the problems.

I did notice something interesting watching a Fox television show called 911.  That show is pushing all the boundaries of prejudice, a white catholic man (who is an ex addict) in love with a black baptist woman (whose ex husband is gay), and the religion is mentioned in a way that says "we still believe in the same god".  Then there are other "groups" represented and all the characters treat each other like family.    Each show has a theme.  It is a totally different kind of programming than what is typical on network television where they have shows aimed at each group, with some random token character to represent some other group.   We all need to start thinking like the characters on the 911 television show, because the divisiveness is not working except for the corporations that like to take everything away from us all.

So did I leave anyone out?   We don't have to get rid of religion, we have to recognize divisive lies and address those, no matter what the subject is.

Hi Desertrat

Agreed the intent of the constitution was to make men equal and free to practice their beliefs, so it is the individuals responsibility to live up to that goal of unity even if they do not share the same belief systems.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
the usual
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jmccr8
44 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm not quite sure of the question. Are you asking if we can progress as society with religion or if we need to remove religion to truly progress?

Edit: might be useful to provide the link to the threads in the OP for each. 

Hi Spartan

I am not suggesting that religion should be chucked in the bin but am asking if people could put aside their religious biases for the greater good of all men.

Not sure what link you are referring to as this is designed to see how each group discusses this without the input of the oppositions perspective. Each there is specific and Saru was good enough to make the title clear so that those who identify with one perspective or the other can select their choice. Members are not allowed to post in both threads just the one that identifies there position.

Added context

I can only post in this thread because of the position that I have taken and will only read the other thread and will enter it only to direct someone to the proper thread or to ask for a post to be removed if it is in the wrong one.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
added context

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spartan max2
7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Spartan

I am not suggesting that religion should be chucked in the bin but am asking if people could put aside their religious biases for the greater good of all men.

Not sure what link you are referring to as this is designed to see how each group discusses this without the input of the oppositions perspective. Each there is specific and Saru was good enough to make the title clear so that those who identify with one perspective or the other can select their choice. Members are not allowed to post in both threads just the one that identifies there position.

Added context

I can only post in this thread because of the position that I have taken and will only read the other thread and will enter it only to direct someone to the proper thread or to ask for a post to be removed if it is in the wrong one.

jmccr8

With the link I was just suggesting it could be useful to put the link to the religious thread in the OP post here. And the link to the skeptic thread to the OP post in the religious thread because it would make it easier to hop back and forth looking at each. Just a thought.

Edited by spartan max2
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jmccr8
1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

With the link I was just suggesting it could be useful to put the link to the religious thread in the OP post here. And the link to the skeptic thread to the OP post in that thread because it would make it easier to hop back and forth looking at each. Just a thought.

Hi Spartan

It is a little late now to change it so we will just live with it as it is and each tread is clearly marked so it can be found quite easily if one choses to look into the other thread.:tu:

jmccr8

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odas
34 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Odas

Thank you for speaking up and saying that you are both, but would like to know how you wish to identify with which thread as this is for skeptics so if you chose this thread you cannot use an argument based on belief or discuss from that position. If you choose to post in this thread then you cannot respond in the other thread seeing as how we are just starting out I would like to make it clear that people should select a thread that reflects your personal position.

jmccr8

As a skeptic. Every organized beliefsystem is accomodating only the likeminded but excludes the others.

In order to move forward towards a just and inclusive society we have to move away from organized religion. The emphasys is on "organized". 

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jmccr8
Just now, odas said:

As a skeptic. Every organized beliefsystem is accomodating only the likeminded but excludes the others.

In order to move forward towards a just and inclusive society we have to move away from organized religion. The emphasys is on "organized". 

Hi Odas

Yes exactly and because the Christian faiths teach acceptance and love your neighbor then I would expect to see less turmoil than I do even within just the divisions of the Christian faiths and would expect them to lead by example which is why I am asking if religion is relevant if it cannot resolve without expectations of conversion.

jmccr8

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psyche101
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

In this thread if you are a believer you must respond in the believers thread and not in this one. If you post in a thread and are not a skeptic I will ask you to go to the other thread and ask for your post to be removed from his one.

Without doubt life would be better with religion on a more honest basis as you suggested akin to national pride. Only knowledge will change that. The easy default is religion. It's hard work to educate oneself. People by large are naturally lazy and stick with the default. 

If knowledge was easy to access and made fun to learn, I doubt religion would survive much more than a fringe movement similar to flat earther's or creationists in two to three generations. Shock value is one draw card that such groups play on. That gets attention for people who crave it. I'd like to think that a world without religion can become a reality one day. It would definitely be a huge step forward for the species. As much a milestone as setting foot on the moon. 

I'd say to an extent it's happened. Many find the absurdity of the Bible too much to be expected to believe so we get personal interpretations of what *really* happened. To be straight I don't see too much difference in the people who do that and the people who wrote the UB. From what I can tell when religion sheds it's absurdities it becomes spirituality. It's already evolving. I don't think in a good way myself though. 

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Without doubt life would be better with religion on a more honest basis as you suggested akin to national pride. Only knowledge will change that. The easy default is religion. It's hard work to educate oneself. People by large are naturally lazy and stick with the default. 

Hi Psyche

Thanks for joining in yes exactly I don't see why there has to be conflict based on religious ideologies at this time in history when we as a world full of people should strive for acceptance and growth of all men(women) which I would tend to think would be the glorification of personal growth.

jmccr8

 

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jmccr8

I know it is early in the discussion but have noticed that people have been posting in the other thread without discussing with each other yet  so am interested as to how they will develop a discussion.jmccr8

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