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[Skeptics] Is religion still relevant ?

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Liquid Gardens
31 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Do you think that if people saw their religious beliefs as personal and not something to project on others as a standard of acceptance that things would change for the better. 

I would think so, and in all fairness many religious people do this already.  The only drawback I could see is if they went too far and their beliefs were too hidden from other people; if those personal religious beliefs were bad but the justification for them unknown, maybe someone believes in one of the many -isms for example, then those ideas may be more difficult to combat and potentially change.

40 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I agree that the aspects of good living promoted in religions is a good thing and is very personal but if you see someone that lives up to the same standard of humility should you reject them just because they do not believe in god?

No, nor do I think you should reject them just because they believe in god.  To repurpose a quote I usually weaponize I'll admit, "we shall know them by their fruits", and I think that applies to everyone.  With a few exceptions, I don't really care how they got there.  

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Liquid Gardens
31 minutes ago, odas said:

As a skeptic. Every organized beliefsystem is accomodating only the likeminded but excludes the others.

In order to move forward towards a just and inclusive society we have to move away from organized religion. The emphasys is on "organized".

Is it only a factor of 'organization' though?  Are skeptics also accommodating only our likeminded and excluding others?  To me it's tough to evaluate as the populations are so out of balance, and I can't deny that there are whole denominations/'organizations' of believers that emphasize this exclusion that has no counterpart in the relatively small skeptic communities. However these believers would likewise be excluded by a decent number of skeptics too, despite our lack of organization.  This may circle back to what Jay mentioned earlier, that maybe the degree to which you are going to impose your personal beliefs as standards for other people to live up to has more impact, and would apply to everyone, religious and non-religious.

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8 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I would think so, and in all fairness many religious people do this already.  The only drawback I could see is if they went too far and their beliefs were too hidden from other people; if those personal religious beliefs were bad but the justification for them unknown, maybe someone believes in one of the many -isms for example, then those ideas may be more difficult to combat and potentially change.

Hi Liquid Gardens

 Yes that is true and I was not discounting them and was only suggesting that if all believes were as open about how others that do not share their beliefs whether they are non-believers of people of different religious are a part of this world that they depend on as a whole. I would never ask someone to abandon their or suppress what they believe only that it is their personal belief in a world that may not share their belief.

15 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

No, nor do I think you should reject them just because they believe in god.  To repurpose a quote I usually weaponize I'll admit, "we shall know them by their fruits", and I think that applies to everyone.  With a few exceptions, I don't really care how they got there.  

I don't, I can respect and appreciate someone because they live their live constructively with others that do not share their belief nothing more.

jmccr8

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Is it only a factor of 'organization' though?  Are skeptics also accommodating only our likeminded and excluding others?  To me it's tough to evaluate as the populations are so out of balance, and I can't deny that there are whole denominations/'organizations' of believers that emphasize this exclusion that has no counterpart in the relatively small skeptic communities. However these believers would likewise be excluded by a decent number of skeptics too, despite our lack of organization.  This may circle back to what Jay mentioned earlier, that maybe the degree to which you are going to impose your personal beliefs as standards for other people to live up to has more impact, and would apply to everyone, religious and non-religious.

I agree that organization does play a big role, because once there is an organization the goal shifts from religion to ensuring the survival of the organization.   But it is true that exclusion and division are not practiced only by religious organizations.  It spans any subject, science organizations, political organizations, etc.   And so the skeptics that are not organized as far as religion is concerned could belong to an exclusive organization of some other sort.   So, even if we removed all religious organizations (which would be unconstitutional in the U.S) there would be other means of divisiveness that could be used against us as a whole by any who live by the "divide and conquer" mentality.

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odas
39 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Odas

Yes exactly and because the Christian faiths teach acceptance and love your neighbor then I would expect to see less turmoil than I do even within just the divisions of the Christian faiths and would expect them to lead by example which is why I am asking if religion is relevant if it cannot resolve without expectations of conversion.

jmccr8

Jmccr8, teachings and practises are not the same. In every religion you will find the same or simmilar teachings but what is practised is very different. Not one religion that is organized, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism...cannot lead with example. Only a human unit, that is free of any kind of organization, can do that.

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2 minutes ago, odas said:

Jmccr8, teachings and practises are not the same. In every religion you will find the same or simmilar teachings but what is practised is very different. Not one religion that is organized, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism...cannot lead with example. Only a human unit, that is free of any kind of organization, can do that.

Hi Odas

That is an interesting position, teaching and interpretation s fundamentally the institutes prime manner of maintaining its followers so if there are a few of their members that fall to the roadside of life the numbers are not great enough to make an impact on the organization itself. We have been speaking mostly in terms of the Christian faith up to this point because that is what was brought up and not that I am not recognizing the others. All religions have ,faithful, all religions have fanatics and these are aspects that we will discuss from the view of the skeptic in this thread. 

jmccr8

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odas
19 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Is it only a factor of 'organization' though?  Are skeptics also accommodating only our likeminded and excluding others?  To me it's tough to evaluate as the populations are so out of balance, and I can't deny that there are whole denominations/'organizations' of believers that emphasize this exclusion that has no counterpart in the relatively small skeptic communities. However these believers would likewise be excluded by a decent number of skeptics too, despite our lack of organization.  This may circle back to what Jay mentioned earlier, that maybe the degree to which you are going to impose your personal beliefs as standards for other people to live up to has more impact, and would apply to everyone, religious and non-religious.

Organisation is not the only factor but the leading cause. And yes, you are right, even skeptics are not free of it. Even atheists basicly form an organisation in which you either fit in or you are out. Belonging to club is human nature. You belong to a club or organisation that calls itself Christianity, Islam, England, France, Tennis Club, Real Madrid...and you have to obey to their rules, ideology and do everything that the others do, a daily ritual.

Now, I always aks myself, as a member of the Islamic faith, how sincere is my relationship with God if I pray 5 times a day? It becomes a ritual, a habbit without a personal and deeper meaning.

I have the same issues with other religions.

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psyche101
24 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

Thanks for joining in yes exactly I don't see why there has to be conflict based on religious ideologies at this time in history when we as a world full of people should strive for acceptance and growth of all men(women) which I would tend to think would be the glorification of personal growth.

jmccr8

Third world countries change the dynamic. The more difficult life is, the more people wish for a saviour, less literacy results in greater belief in that cultures diety. That's where we see the greatest inequalities and the most devout religious people. 

The world's not on the same page, we have to be to recognise equality. 

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8 minutes ago, odas said:

Organisation is not the only factor but the leading cause. And yes, you are right, even skeptics are not free of it. Even atheists basicly form an organisation in which you either fit in or you are out. Belonging to club is human nature. You belong to a club or organisation that calls itself Christianity, Islam, England, France, Tennis Club, Real Madrid...and you have to obey to their rules, ideology and do everything that the others do, a daily ritual.

Hi Odas

Why would a member of a religion have to be more responsible than the institute that they belong to the organization should lead the way not hinder acceptance of all men no matter what they believe?

11 minutes ago, odas said:

Now, I always aks myself, as a member of the Islamic faith, how sincere is my relationship with God if I pray 5 times a day? It becomes a ritual, a habbit without a personal and deeper meaning.

Are you really a skeptic?

I am not asking to create friction I am asking because the requirement for this thread is to be a skeptic if you have religious beliefs please go to the other threadand I will still read your comments but will not respond in that thread.

jmccr8

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HandsomeGorilla

I've said it before, but in my view, religion is now irrelevant and outdated. It was a way of explaining things we didn't know at the time, things that were seemingly magic. Create a God and magic story book and bam...

Also became an incredibly effective way of oppressing and controlling certain groups of people. And still can be, unfortunately 

 

Edited by HandsomeGorilla
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Tatetopa

Interesting thread.

I wonder if religion is just one manifestation of  the natural variation in the formation of our individual brains?

I bet most of us have taken a Meyers-Briggs or some other personality test that claims to reveal some basic operating characteristics of one's personality.  The may be no more than corporate astrology and a search for the newest management  technique.  Or those sorts of tests may accurately reflect some differences in how we process the world and how we approach problems and uncertainty.

So I wonder if religion is only one manifestation of personality type, and the circumstances one was born in?  An infant exposed to want, privation, and uncertainty might develop a very different outlook as an adult to one who has not experienced those things.   Are some people by their very nature more inclined to seek and accept religion for various reasons?

I have been thinking about this in relation to our current situation in the US. It is not solely belief in a  a supreme being that divides us. Coronavirus, climate change, cult politics are all things that seem to be to require a parallel ability to accept ideas without proof or question and perhaps the need to have those certainties in life.

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9 minutes ago, HandsomeGorilla said:

I've said it before, but in my view, religion is now irrelevant and outdated. It was a way of explaining things we didn't know at the time, things that were seemingly magic. Create a God and magic story book and bam...

Also became an incredibly effective way of oppressing and controlling certain groups of people. And still can be, unfortunately 

 

Hi Handsome

I am still inclined to entertain that religion has a value to individuals and if it guides them to be accepting of others and living a good fair life for all then it has a place and would not desire to take that from anyone.

jmccr8

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odas
18 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Odas

Why would a member of a religion have to be more responsible than the institute that they belong to the organization should lead the way not hinder acceptance of all men no matter what they believe?

Are you really a skeptic?

I am not asking to create friction I am asking because the requirement for this thread is to be a skeptic if you have religious beliefs please go to the other threadand I will still read your comments but will not respond in that thread.

jmccr8

Thanks J. You are acctualy proving my point about "organized".

I am a skeptic. I am skeptical of religion as an organisation, institution.

But, I am also a believer in God, just in a different way than what is common in any religion including Islam.

That puts me in neither one thread.

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Just now, odas said:

Thanks J. You are acctualy proving my point about "organized".

I am a skeptic. I am skeptical of religion as an organisation, institution.

But, I am also a believer in God, just in a different way than what is common in any religion including Islam.

That puts me in neither one thread.

Hi Odas

I appreciate you frankness in answering and welcome you to continue on in this thread please do understand why I asked for clarification as it was not meant to be personal.:tu:

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HandsomeGorilla
13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Handsome

I am still inclined to entertain that religion has a value to individuals and if it guides them to be accepting of others and living a good fair life for all then it has a place and would not desire to take that from anyone.

jmccr8

 

13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

 

 I agree, of course, but that hasn't been historically true, unfortunately. Being religious absolutely does not make one a bad person, I've known amazing folks from all religions. I don't intend to paint all followers in any sort of light at all. 

However, religion and I have Irreconcilable differences in regard to how they've treated anyone 'different', along with the very clear oppression of women; much of it still pervading to this day. I'm speaking mostly of Christianity and Judaism, for what it's worth, my knowledge of Islam isn't so great. 

That's sort of where it falls short for me. I work in a fairly 'liberal' environment and many of my friends are gay (and Christians, ironically) and only recently have they even been given the right to wed. Why? Because those big, dusty old tomes still say the same old ****. 

 

 

Edited by HandsomeGorilla
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8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Interesting thread.

I wonder if religion is just one manifestation of  the natural variation in the formation of our individual brains?

I bet most of us have taken a Meyers-Briggs or some other personality test that claims to reveal some basic operating characteristics of one's personality.  The may be no more than corporate astrology and a search for the newest management  technique.  Or those sorts of tests may accurately reflect some differences in how we process the world and how we approach problems and uncertainty.

So I wonder if religion is only one manifestation of personality type, and the circumstances one was born in?  An infant exposed to want, privation, and uncertainty might develop a very different outlook as an adult to one who has not experienced those things.   Are some people by their very nature more inclined to seek and accept religion for various reasons?

I have been thinking about this in relation to our current situation in the US. It is not solely belief in a  a supreme being that divides us. Coronavirus, climate change, cult politics are all things that seem to be to require a parallel ability to accept ideas without proof or question and perhaps the need to have those certainties in life.

Hi Tatetopa

Yes there are many factor involved with govt and covid and they are also influenced by religious thinking for some people so cannot be excluded as an influence in some ways.

We have a member here that believes that children are making god constructs before they are born using a language of the mind although I have not seen reasonable documentation that supports his premise.

To me if there was a god then all men would see the same figure and that god would have given one way not a bunch of different gods having each their own path that divides the whole rather than unifying it.

jmccr8

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odas
6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Interesting thread.

I wonder if religion is just one manifestation of  the natural variation in the formation of our individual brains?

I bet most of us have taken a Meyers-Briggs or some other personality test that claims to reveal some basic operating characteristics of one's personality.  The may be no more than corporate astrology and a search for the newest management  technique.  Or those sorts of tests may accurately reflect some differences in how we process the world and how we approach problems and uncertainty.

So I wonder if religion is only one manifestation of personality type, and the circumstances one was born in?  An infant exposed to want, privation, and uncertainty might develop a very different outlook as an adult to one who has not experienced those things.   Are some people by their very nature more inclined to seek and accept religion for various reasons?

I have been thinking about this in relation to our current situation in the US. It is not solely belief in a  a supreme being that divides us. Coronavirus, climate change, cult politics are all things that seem to be to require a parallel ability to accept ideas without proof or question and perhaps the need to have those certainties in life.

Tate, good post.

The way I see religion religion is something private, not to be shared or imposed onto anyone. Two people who have never done it before,  will read a paragraph from the Bible, or the Quran and they each will have a different understanding. What they understand is the direct reflection of their inner being. I would call it a personification of a free will.

However, if we listen to what someone else says about the paragraph before we read it, our perception of the paragraph is already destorted by influence, hence our free will is compromised. 

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Dejarma
2 hours ago, odas said:

When it comes to religion I am a believer and a skeptic at the same time.

you can't be both

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47 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Third world countries change the dynamic. The more difficult life is, the more people wish for a saviour, less literacy results in greater belief in that cultures diety. That's where we see the greatest inequalities and the most devout religious people. 

The world's not on the same page, we have to be to recognise equality. 

Hi Psyche

That is true but of those people in those counties how many are just using it as a means of hoping/coping with the dictators that they fear and keeps them in poverty and is it a means of keeping them for standing up and opposing the conditions that they live in?

jmccr8

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psyche101
24 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Handsome

I am still inclined to entertain that religion has a value to individuals and if it guides them to be accepting of others and living a good fair life for all then it has a place and would not desire to take that from anyone.

jmccr8

That's a method. Methods can be improved upon. 

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odas
Just now, Dejarma said:

you can't be both

Yes I can and I already explained my views.

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1 minute ago, Dejarma said:

you can't be both

Hi Dejarma

Odas has made a choice to participate as a skeptic and will take his word on that and as you can see he has made good points as a skeptic so am content to let things be as they are:tu:

jmccr8

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8 minutes ago, odas said:

Yes I can and I already explained my views.

Hi Odas

I have spoken on your behalf and would ask members to respect that and not start making defenses not that I saw you were but thought that if I am going to mediate here to set things out for clarity.:tu:

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's a method. Methods can be improved upon. 

Hi Psyche

Exactly is it a tool for living if it is taken as inclusive of all others.

jmccr8

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

That is true but of those people in those counties how many are just using it as a means of hoping/coping with the dictators that they fear and keeps them in poverty and is it a means of keeping them for standing up and opposing the conditions that they live in?

jmccr8

None in my opinion. 

With a saviour one is putting ones eggs onto one basket.

Last night, by coincidence I was watching a documentary on Jewish persecution by the Nazi regime. During terrible conditions many kept asking where is god, why does he allow this. Some did what many here do and said it's not god, that's man 

I'm honestly not sure how that works, however

Then there were those who figured god had forsaken them. The majority of those threw themselves under trains or ran at guards in a suicide bid.

Then some came to the conclusion that there is no god. 900 tried to escape, of those 200 made it. 

We are at our best when we see our worst. I don't think gods really all that much help in a crisis situation. 

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