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jmccr8

[Skeptics] Is religion still relevant ?

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jmccr8
4 hours ago, joc said:

So...jmccr8...I apologize for things I said earlier...I was just expressing anger...a normal function...in the wrong place, at the wrong time, to the wrong person, because if we search our psyche for the sources of our anger, we often find that anger seldom originates from the source we think it does. 

That being said...just one tiny, itsy, witsy rant...not to identify other posters but @psyche101, @Sherapy, @eight bits....and yes... @jmccr8...you guys are the very ones who agg on previously mentioned members by incessantly quoting them and calling them out.  You share equal partnership in the derailment of threads which  become totally about them...When really all you have to do is push that ignore button. ...then you experience bliss... Nuff said.  You know I love all you guys! 

Back to the topic...and I am not a skeptic...I am a non-believer.   Imho, it all really does come down to understanding the psychology of belief.  Believers ...believe...that what they believe is true.  One cannot believe something they think is false.  From personal experience...we know that the moment we tell another person that they are wrong...conflict is created.  Because no one likes to be invalidated and these religious beliefs are so incredibly personal.  

As to the question of relevancy?  There are 1.2 billion Catholics, 1.8 billion Muslims, and 800 million Protestant Christians on the planet.  That is roughly half of the planet.  The majority of the other half belief in something Spiritual that isn't defined by the mainstream religions. Most Catholics are not converted, they are born Catholic.  Same with most Muslims, and the same with most Protestant Christians.  So, belief is quite relevant in our world.  Belief is generational, it is personal.   Therefore...it is relevant.  It isn't going away.  The best way, imo to 'get along' with that other half of the world is just to accept that people believe things which are not true...and let them.  And that really pretty much is all I  have to say on the subject. :)

Hi Joc

Thank for your response, Yes and many are affected by the disagreements within religions that are pushed by fanatics. Do you think a bomber gives a rats a$$ about what religion or from where the victims come from or if they have any belief yes I can see that it would be up to me to resolve that by myself.

The separate threads were to observe something and yes at least twice I admitted that I could have spent more time on the OP but have clarified that it is a starting point so sorry if it is offensive for you that I wanted to try something different to see if there is any way to discuss a topic and actually understand each others position without it getting personal.

I guess all I can say really is yes I get involved with discussions but if that is offensive I see your hands are unwashed as well no one is invisible here we all know what each other post.

Nuff said on the subject it is not required that anyone participate if they are uncomfortable and no matter what happens there is something to observe.

jmccr8

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jmccr8

I was reading in a couple of other threads and judging by the tone of some posters I wonder if they come here to moan and cry or are interested in looking at issues and the part we play in them and what the point is in joining a discussion forum. For me when I first joined I laughed all the time because people had wit and could make a point in a fun way

Yes I have empathy for some that struggle with life I have had my share of bad times and none of you were there or caused them so just like I wasn't there or caused theirs for them so I don't hold that on anyone even when some of the people hold similar attitudes to the challenges I faced, my life my challenge got nothing to do with anyone here.

Is the sole reason for coming here to vent frustration or to try and see all sides and maybe grow a bit in the process and most of the conflict here is about pointless BS that has nothing to do with what thread topics are about. Yes I will take someone to task for making unsubstantiated claims because this is a skeptics forum and that is what happens here and is not intended as personal and understand that it can be difficult for someone that thinks they are special or rules don't apply evenly across the board they do.

jmccr8

 

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Sherapy
6 hours ago, eight bits said:

I'll cop to junior partnership.

As a badge holder, as you are and I once was, I'm sure you'll appreciate that discussion of why this or that thread becomes the object of moderator or administrator action is ... discouraged ...

Which leaves me in the uncomfortable position of standing accused with some real constraints on what I might say in my defense.

So there it must stay, I think. One thing, though. I have at least the consolation of sharing the dock with some of the finest posters on this site.

There's a line in Band of Brothers, where decades after WW II, a grandchild asks "Were you a hero in the war, grandpa?" And grandpa answers, "No, but I served in a company of heroes."

Thanks, Joc. You made my day.

I too am guilty as charged of partaking in conversations with all posters, especially MW. 
 

My journey here is trifold, it is a gestalt exercise in embracing all aspects of myself, it has been healing, frustrating at times, freeing, inspirational and educational. 

MW probably not meaning to has provided many opportunities for my own personal and intellectual refinement and growth. He gives a genuine example of all the pitfalls along the way of becoming a good quality critical thinker, the pot holes we all can get stuck in if we get over confident

. And, how we show what we know regardless of how we spin things. I have nothing but gratitude for his contributions. 
 

And, I agree with eighty the counters and growth that have come from these exchanges have led to friendships and food for thought that quite frankly blow me away. I have taken college courses because of these posters examples, come on some posters really bring it, thank goodness for them. I came here with lots to learn too and I am a work in progress and enjoy this learning experience, immensely. Much gratitude and warm regards to all the posters. 

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jmccr8
15 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I too am guilty as charged of partaking in conversations with all posters, especially MW. 
 

My journey here is trifold, it is a gestalt exercise in embracing all aspects of myself, it has been healing, freeing and inspirational and educational. 

MW probably not meaning to has provided many opportunities for my own personal and intellectual refinement and growth. He gives a genuine example of all the pitfalls along the way of becoming a good quality critical thinker, the pot holes we all can get stuck in if we get over confident. And, how we show what we know regardless of how we spin things. I have nothing but gratitude for his contributions. 
 

And, I agree with eighty the counters and growth that have come from these exchanges have led to friendships and food for thought that quite frankly blow me away. I have taken college courses because of these posters examples, come on some posters really bring it, thank goodness for them. I came here with lots to learn too and I am a work in progress and enjoy this learning experience  immensely. Much gratitude and warm regards to all the posters. 

Hi Sherapy

Thanks and yes growth is why we should be here.

The point of these two threads is not to identify other members not involved in this thread as we are trying to address perspectives and not people, I know that can be difficult at times but that is why we exercise to get in better shape. We have to try and set an example even if the partner thread lacks activity at this point but that may( won't get my hopes up) change if they see we have and focus on what we see are some of the issues in progressing without inciting. I know that there are some that are following to see what we do and how we progress within this group.:D:tu:

jmccr8

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Sherapy
29 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Sherapy

Thanks and yes growth is why we should be here.

The point of these two threads is not to identify other members not involved in this thread as we are trying to address perspectives and not people, I know that can be difficult at times but that is why we exercise to get in better shape. We have to try and set an example even if the partner thread lacks activity at this point but that may( won't get my hopes up) change if they see we have and focus on what we see are some of the issues in progressing without inciting. I know that there are some that are following to see what we do and how we progress within this group.:D:tu:

jmccr8

 I do not see myself as better than or above anyone, I have been on UM for 17 years and have struggled with thinking that semantics is the be all end all to argumentation too, had to work through major resentments over religion, geez, as if a believer doesn’t come with hang ups about Atheism

 

. I wouldn't have known a heuristic if it bit me in the face, Cognitive bias, huh? I sucked at grammar, syntax and spelling at one time too, more than most. I once thought I would never be able to comprehend just one of Eightbits posts, let alone add anything, yet, I kept at it till I did. 

 

 I marveled at posters like Copasetic at how genius some brains are with some work. And, observing growth in the intellects of those who really work at it, well let’s just say I am a big cheerleader. My favorite posters are Psyche and Jay, in this regard.These posters have helped when I asked and have gone the extra mile including being supportive, patient and giving me the feedback that I needed to hear. I have been one of the few females on here too, I had to push thru insecurities too, and had to get back up and try again. Trying different things trying to find a way for us to get the most out of our exchanges is a good thing. 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

 I do not see myself as better than or above anyone, I have been on UM for 27 years and have struggled with thinking that semantics is the be all end all to argumentation too, had to work through major resentments over religion, geez, I wouldn't have known a heuristic if it bit me in the face, Cognitive bias, huh? I sucked at grammar, syntax and spelling at one time too, more than most. I once thought I would never be able to comprehend just one of Eightbits posts, let alone add anything, yet, I kept at it till I did. I marveled at posters like Copasetic at how genius some brains are with some work. And, observing growth in the intellects of those who really work at it well let’s just say I am a big cheerleader, my favorite posters are Psyche and Jay in this regard.These posters have helped when I asked and have gone the extra mile including being supportive, patient and giving me the feedback that I needed to hear. I have been one of the few females on here too, I had to push thru insecurities too, and had to get back up and try again. Trying different things trying to find a way for us  pro get the most out of our exchanges is a good thing. 

Thanks Sherapy:tu:

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eight bits
4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

what are the spiritual benefits of both your and spiritual activities that to me could make them spiritual?  That it provides meaning?  That it provides a meta-scaffolding to one's understanding of reality?  That it connects the person with the rest of reality and allows the ascertainment and acceptance of their place in it?  Simple peaceful activity?

What often occurs to me is that I am allowed to witness a different way to be conscious (to "do" consciousness?). I am grateful for that; I want to learn more about that way of being. It also makes me wonder sometimes, what did the ancient wild wolves see in us? Human + gray wolf is one of the great biological symbiotic success stories ever. I don't think it all began as some one-sided human "Oh, let's domesticate wolves ...," but more a treaty between sovreign species. We made a deal, or at least that's what I think.

In any case, a dozen millennia later, I walk with a beagle, and know there is a wolf beside me. I think that that is competitive with any zen koan I've heard.

I also think sometimes of Philip Pullman's fantastic multiverse trilogy, His Dark Materials. In the lead character's (Lyra Belacqua's) universe, humans have souls who take the form of companion animals. It is a startling image, but also one that gives me pause. That beagle? On my best day, I wouldn't deserve her being my soul. There's a meditation in that.

4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Doggos, still my top choice for species to inherit the earth after the demise of humans, are exemplars of so many otherwise spiritual fruits; few beings can provide empathy, patience, happiness, and the liberating focus on 'right now' as purely as them. 

I think dogs will work their butts off to prevent our extinction - gawdnose we could use some help with that.

But how often do we hear from some of the religious that we need to rise above our animal nature? Meh, if "animal nature" is the nature of dogs, better that we should achieve such a nature first.

Somewhere in all of that there must be something "sptiritual." :unsure2:

 

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Sherapy
43 minutes ago, eight bits said:

What often occurs to me is that I am allowed to witness a different way to be conscious (to "do" consciousness?). I am grateful for that; I want to learn more about that way of being. It also makes me wonder sometimes, what did the ancient wild wolves see in us? Human + gray wolf is one of the great biological symbiotic success stories ever. I don't think it all began as some one-sided human "Oh, let's domesticate wolves ...," but more a treaty between sovreign species. We made a deal, or at least that's what I think.

In any case, a dozen millennia later, I walk with a beagle, and know there is a wolf beside me. I think that that is competitive with any zen koan I've heard.

I also think sometimes of Philip Pullman's fantastic multiverse trilogy, His Dark Materials. In the lead character's (Lyra Belacqua's) universe, humans have souls who take the form of companion animals. It is a startling image, but also one that gives me pause. That beagle? On my best day, I wouldn't deserve her being my soul. There's a meditation in that.

I think dogs will work their butts off to prevent our extinction - gawdnose we could use some help with that.

But how often do we hear from some of the religious that we need to rise above our animal nature? Meh, if "animal nature" is the nature of dogs, better that we should achieve such a nature first.

Somewhere in all of that there must be something "sptiritual." :unsure2:

 

Wowza, great post.

I can relate, when I walk Zenny, I can’t help but think of his pure ID meeting life he just does him. His sweet basic nature is just that a beautiful mix of kindness, wonder, delight, peace and empathy, this dog never meets a stranger. Like you these moments add the spiritual to the ordinary moments. I learn more about mindfulness and meditation from my furry soul mate than anyone else. 
 

Apparently according to the mindful living practitioners, it is these awe inspiring moments that we are in the bliss of “now,” if so, it works for me.

 

Just my two cents. 

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Liquid Gardens
33 minutes ago, eight bits said:

What often occurs to me is that I am allowed to witness a different way to be conscious (to "do" consciousness?). I am grateful for that; I want to learn more about that way of being.

Well put! I went for a hike today and had a brush with the same flavor of insight, although it may have been more about a way to be conscious that I typically only get out in nature.  It's freezing here and there were a couple inches of hard snow, and kind of had a good fresh air buzz going after warming up from walking for a while.  I had turned a bend on the trail and there just happened to be several birds in the trees nearby; an eastern bluebird couple were nibbling on something on the tree and flapping their wings for some bird-only-knows reason, a couple titmice flying to the ground and then back up to the tree, oh there's a hairy woodpecker way up there.  All of them doing their thing just like I was, creatures just as evolved as I am but living so differently, likely experiencing more per second than I am with their accelerated metabolism.  And they can fly

It's all just so thankfully removed from some of the mindset many of us are in during our normal lives sometimes and fulfilling our roles as a member of society and all that other human mind clutter.  Looking out at a frozen lake, with the leafless tree branches highlighted with frost and snow and the sun just a lighter spot behind the clouds, and knowing it's all that way because I'm on a giant spinning sphere slowly going in a circle and right now I just happen to be tilted a little further away from the sun than normal.  I know some people despair a little at observations like this, the noting of how 'physical' everything is and especially if they do not resist the temptation to include the word 'just' or 'only' in that description, but for me those kind of observations are just doors to a 'spiritual-type' awareness; whether it's god or the universe, I'm part of something so much larger than me.  I see a lot of potential spirituality when you continue down that path of thinking and realization (emphasis on 'real'), I think recognition of the amazing can be very spiritual.

It may be something more specific to me though, I've only had a couple powerful 'transcendental' experiences in my life but they weren't god-related; although I had the common comfortable understanding of death and how it's not something to fear, instead of a divine loving presence it was more a glimpse of how the entire universe was connected and an intricate, balanced machine.  Not easy to explain, but I wonder if maybe I'm unusual in getting inspiration from the non-sentient, or if maybe I focus more on trying to get more out of these kind of insights in hopes I'll stumble across that elusive entry to those experiences again.

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Golden Duck
11 hours ago, joc said:

So...jmccr8...I apologize for things I said earlier...I was just expressing anger...a normal function...in the wrong place, at the wrong time, to the wrong person, because if we search our psyche for the sources of our anger, we often find that anger seldom originates from the source we think it does. 

That being said...just one tiny, itsy, witsy rant...not to identify other posters but @psyche101, @Sherapy, @eight bits....and yes... @jmccr8...you guys are the very ones who agg on previously mentioned members by incessantly quoting them and calling them out.  You share equal partnership in the derailment of threads which  become totally about them...When really all you have to do is push that ignore button. ...then you experience bliss... Nuff said.  You know I love all you guys! 

Back to the topic...and I am not a skeptic...I am a non-believer.   Imho, it all really does come down to understanding the psychology of belief.  Believers ...believe...that what they believe is true.  One cannot believe something they think is false.  From personal experience...we know that the moment we tell another person that they are wrong...conflict is created.  Because no one likes to be invalidated and these religious beliefs are so incredibly personal.  

As to the question of relevancy?  There are 1.2 billion Catholics, 1.8 billion Muslims, and 800 million Protestant Christians on the planet.  That is roughly half of the planet.  The majority of the other half belief in something Spiritual that isn't defined by the mainstream religions. Most Catholics are not converted, they are born Catholic.  Same with most Muslims, and the same with most Protestant Christians.  So, belief is quite relevant in our world.  Belief is generational, it is personal.   Therefore...it is relevant.  It isn't going away.  The best way, imo to 'get along' with that other half of the world is just to accept that people believe things which are not true...and let them.  And that really pretty much is all I  have to say on the subject. :)

Anyone who appeals to common sense believes something - right or wrong.

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Sherapy
49 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Well put! I went for a hike today and had a brush with the same flavor of insight, although it may have been more about a way to be conscious that I typically only get out in nature.  It's freezing here and there were a couple inches of hard snow, and kind of had a good fresh air buzz going after warming up from walking for a while.  I had turned a bend on the trail and there just happened to be several birds in the trees nearby; an eastern bluebird couple were nibbling on something on the tree and flapping their wings for some bird-only-knows reason, a couple titmice flying to the ground and then back up to the tree, oh there's a hairy woodpecker way up there.  All of them doing their thing just like I was, creatures just as evolved as I am but living so differently, likely experiencing more per second than I am with their accelerated metabolism.  And they can fly

It's all just so thankfully removed from some of the mindset many of us are in during our normal lives sometimes and fulfilling our roles as a member of society and all that other human mind clutter.  Looking out at a frozen lake, with the leafless tree branches highlighted with frost and snow and the sun just a lighter spot behind the clouds, and knowing it's all that way because I'm on a giant spinning sphere slowly going in a circle and right now I just happen to be tilted a little further away from the sun than normal.  I know some people despair a little at observations like this, the noting of how 'physical' everything is and especially if they do not resist the temptation to include the word 'just' or 'only' in that description, but for me those kind of observations are just doors to a 'spiritual-type' awareness; whether it's god or the universe, I'm part of something so much larger than me.  I see a lot of potential spirituality when you continue down that path of thinking and realization (emphasis on 'real'), I think recognition of the amazing can be very spiritual.

It may be something more specific to me though, I've only had a couple powerful 'transcendental' experiences in my life but they weren't god-related; although I had the common comfortable understanding of death and how it's not something to fear, instead of a divine loving presence it was more a glimpse of how the entire universe was connected and an intricate, balanced machine.  Not easy to explain, but I wonder if maybe I'm unusual in getting inspiration from the non-sentient, or if maybe I focus more on trying to get more out of these kind of insights in hopes I'll stumble across that elusive entry to those experiences again.

Wow, I appreciate these type of moments especially shared through your perspective. I felt like I was there. Thank you for sharing. :nw:

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jmccr8

Last night I finished watching "raised by wolves" a sci-fi about a religious war in the future and was surprised to see an android have an immaculate conception and give birth to a flying snake.:huh: And so ended season one not sure if there will be a season two.:lol:

jmccr8

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jmccr8

So once again I have been reading in other threads and noticed that a member seems to think that only they are in a position to determine what the others members should be doing or that they are refusing to listen to god. I guess that us observing their actions in other threads like being part of a lynching mob about Jodie Lynn and her choices not to mention other incidents of intolerances is insignificant in how some of us take the hollow god words of that individual. Will I take them as serious when they talk about spirituality? Not a chance if they do not actually atone and have remorse for their actions, the fact that they are politically correct now does not mean that they have changed their position only that they have the brains to keep their mouth shut about some things. These are some of the issues that people have with proclaimers and it does damage how others may relate to more conservative believers that do show that they are accepting of others.

jmccr8

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psyche101
On 1/30/2021 at 2:43 PM, Nuclear Wessel said:

Christ on a Cross... you get a lot of fanmail?

Hate mail? LOL

Just lazy

 

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psyche101
On 1/30/2021 at 4:09 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

Even though I laughed the rule is not to identify other posters.:tu:

jmccr8

I'm trying, a lot of people say that. 

Indeed but if I can offer an out here, they posted those grievances in this thread. So there wasn't much anonymity.

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jmccr8
3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'm trying, a lot of people say that. 

Indeed but if I can offer an out here, they posted those grievances in this thread. So there wasn't much anonymity.

Hi Psyche

I know it is difficult at times because it can be just a reaction due to so any years of challenging each other which is why that makes this an exercise that we can practice here and at this time it looks like only non-believers are willing to explore these types of discussions or ways to improve them. In the last 8 pages we have given plenty for them to discuss so we can see how they develop their unified consensus of how they see these issues so we can see how they got to those conclusions so we can include them in our discussion.

jmccr8

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psyche101
On 1/30/2021 at 4:19 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

I don't have to accept that any god is real or valid unless it becomes something that I have an experience with but I do accept that t is real and valid to the believer and do respect that. I have never asked anyone or tried to turn anyone away from their belief. I do question some of the concepts brought up here because questions arise and for a believer I am interested in why they came to believe and many times we are not even talking about religion it is interesting as to the positions they express.

I don't try to win anything here but some people get my sense of humor going.:D

jmccr8

I don't think getting someone to turn away from a belief is the best option. More often than not, when believers find themselves challenged they tend to pull that cloak of belief ever tighter about themselves. 

Rational discussion over religious ideologies I'd think a better way to make sense of what religion really is and us supposed to be. The only way to really see what is going on is to actually look at it yourself. One can't force an epiphany.

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psyche101
On 1/30/2021 at 10:03 PM, eight bits said:

Same "judge" (the exact form of the user name varied a little from place to place) as used to troll the old Randi forum?

I left when it changed ownership. There were some good arguments-discussions there, but I have no idea why the mods put up with the "judge's" hot and cold running crap.

I'd say it's the same silly fellow. 

On 1/30/2021 at 10:03 PM, eight bits said:

I'm glad to see you're deepening your position on spirituality, distinguishing it more from religion. I'm fairly confident that what I "get out of" going off in the woods, preferably with a dog or two (congenial humans are welcome, too) is very similar to what "spiritual people" get out of their practices.

As I've said in other threads, I, too, walk with angels, but the ones with me leave footprints. A feature, not a bug, IMO.

With all you great posters, my understanding constantly grows wider. I listen a lot, some things just take longer to sink in than others. 

There are ones that leave footprints, I've met one or two of those. It's the gods that don't know if they are imaginary or not that tend to derail these discussions. :innocent: 

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jmccr8
26 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I don't think getting someone to turn away from a belief is the best option. More often than not, when believers find themselves challenged they tend to pull that cloak of belief ever tighter about themselves. 

Rational discussion over religious ideologies I'd think a better way to make sense of what religion really is and us supposed to be. The only way to really see what is going on is to actually look at it yourself. One can't force an epiphany.

Hi Psyche

I have no intention of turning anyone from their belief as we know not all people within a faith have varying interpretations of that religion by both teachers and the individual themselves. A hundred years ago neighboring communities in the Americas had religions build on the perspectives of the preacher it was the word of god according who ever was thumping the bible for a living, I guess it's a job and somebody has to do but. As centers got larger there was a more unified interpretation within neighboring communities so some adaptation of their beliefs would have had to happen and that is just and example of one religion never mind the competition.

Books like the Bible or the Koran or the Tanakh do not have to actually need to be interpreted for intolerance or violence if people want to live a better life they look for the best principals to live by unfortunately some social/political/religious do not allow their people the same freedom we enjoy and cannot discont that when looking t some issues of how religions would integrate enough so that we are not going out in space with prejudice or bias from home affecting how we will interact with new life in space.

edited to add

I know that you do not tell people to give up their religion and it is not you intent to hurt anyone either, I understand your arguments and you make the well, but you and I share certain intolerances for people that do not read and argue the material that counters the opinion they hold but there we part, you get all serious and me I put a silk bag and my sledgehammer and use humor (well funny to me anyway), words we can use them in so many ways

jmccr8

 

Edited by jmccr8
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psyche101
On 1/30/2021 at 11:54 PM, joc said:

That being said...just one tiny, itsy, witsy rant...not to identify other posters but @psyche101, @Sherapy, @eight bits....and yes... @jmccr8...you guys are the very ones who agg on previously mentioned members by incessantly quoting them and calling them out.  You share equal partnership in the derailment of threads which  become totally about them...When really all you have to do is push that ignore button. ...then you experience bliss... Nuff said.  You know I love all you guys! 

I've actually refused to discuss topics with the long winded poster your referring to for a good couple months now, despite numerous attempts to goad me into nonsense discussions. The other doesn't get into long winded discussions but revives them every few months as if a new subject. You have missed a couple developments in your absence. 

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psyche101
37 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

I have no intention of turning anyone from their belief as we know not all people within a faith have varying interpretations of that religion by both teachers and the individual themselves. A hundred years ago neighboring communities in the Americas had religions build on the perspectives of the preacher it was the word of god according who ever was thumping the bible for a living, I guess it's a job and somebody has to do but. As centers got larger there was a more unified interpretation within neighboring communities so some adaptation of their beliefs would have had to happen and that is just and example of one religion never mind the competition.

Books like the Bible or the Koran or the Tanakh do not have to actually need to be interpreted for intolerance or violence if people want to live a better life they look for the best principals to live by unfortunately some social/political/religious do not allow their people the same freedom we enjoy and cannot discont that when looking t some issues of how religions would integrate enough so that we are not going out in space with prejudice or bias from home affecting how we will interact with new life in space.

jmccr8

jmccr8

That's where I strongly disagree. I just don't understand why religion itself is deserving of respect. I can understand a person's individual belief as that can arise through too many aspects to cover. But that's not perpetuating a falsehood. It's belief in religion. 

While it's true that the Bible's in question don't need to be interpreted violently, they are, and as long as considered "real" to some, they will continue to happen. Such is the nature of humankind. IMO, religion is a tempting distraction away from knowledge. In that sense, it's a menace. It breeds contempt of actual knowledge because knowledge erodes it. And offers string division. 

I suppose it depends on if one finds emotional security above real world knowledge. I think in that sense, emotional security is a narrow view that is somewhat selfish. It holds back people who want to move forward whilst the global population flounders on a resolved question. 

Space? Depends on if we are the discoverer or discovered. I could see stone age progression regarding religion, bit I can't see advanced species still floundering in mythology. 

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joc
43 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I've actually refused to discuss topics with the long winded poster your referring to for a good couple months now, despite numerous attempts to goad me into nonsense discussions. The other doesn't get into long winded discussions but revives them every few months as if a new subject. You have missed a couple developments in your absence. 

Yeah, I don't get out much...not on the religious threads anyway.   They are kind of boring actually.  But...I'm glad you are disengaged from some of the idiocy that passes for intelligence!   :w00t:

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jmccr8
16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That's where I strongly disagree. I just don't understand why religion itself is deserving of respect.

Hi Psyche

I respect people from all over the world every day in my personal life and for me that includes their choice to believe although if I saw that it was reflected in a bigoted or biased way that would affect the level of respect I have for that individual, we don't meet everyone in a country at once it's a one by one kind of thing and religion is no different. My opinion on the validity of their belief means nothing to any other person people have faith in what they believe in. I don't have to agree with their belief just accept that is what they believe no skin off my back unless their beliefs are a danger to others then the skin is in.

26 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

While it's true that the Bible's in question don't need to be interpreted violently, they are, and as long as considered "real" to some, they will continue to happen. Such is the nature of humankind. IMO, religion is a tempting distraction away from knowledge. In that sense, it's a menace. It breeds contempt of actual knowledge because knowledge erodes it. And offers string division.

I disagree to a point as I know many well educated people that have a religion and a belief(religion does not infer a specific personal belief) that satisfies both the material outer world and a emotional/psychological needs/demands. Many companies and management level govt agencies still look for people that fit a demographic so like to select married will religious affiliations neither aspect relies on love or belief just the fact that you have a religion and are married. I tend to think it is a minority that create all the problems like religious leaders and fanatics and the rest just go with the flow.

jmccr8

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psyche101
5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Psyche

I respect people from all over the world every day in my personal life and for me that includes their choice to believe although if I saw that it was reflected in a bigoted or biased way that would affect the level of respect I have for that individual, we don't meet everyone in a country at once it's a one by one kind of thing and religion is no different. My opinion on the validity of their belief means nothing to any other person people have faith in what they believe in. I don't have to agree with their belief just accept that is what they believe no skin off my back unless their beliefs are a danger to others then the skin is in.

I disagree to a point as I know many well educated people that have a religion and a belief(religion does not infer a specific personal belief) that satisfies both the material outer world and a emotional/psychological needs/demands. Many companies and management level govt agencies still look for people that fit a demographic so like to select married will religious affiliations neither aspect relies on love or belief just the fact that you have a religion and are married. I tend to think it is a minority that create all the problems like religious leaders and fanatics and the rest just go with the flow.

jmccr8

 

Hey J

 

I find most well educated people who do subscribe to a belief would be more along the lines of a personal but general spirituality. A moral compass or a background thought. I find most intelligent people don't waste a lot of time on the idea. There are some incredibly intelligent people like Simon Conway Morris who have found a middle ground in both camps, but I honestly don't think that's the majority of academics. To be honest, I find people who accept conflicting outcomes something of an enigma. 

With less academically orientated people I find the belief ideas more ingrained and directed. And the less academically orientated, the more they just have to save everyone in sight. 

Again, that bigger picture is what I find more a problem than the individual. The individual belief in turn validates fanatical beliefs in society. Westboro exists because it's a belief. Whabbism has place to practice out of reverence for belief in general. These factions are indeed smaller and miniscule next to major faith systems, but do significant damage when they do act. Religion I find is an excuse to behave badly for the few because the many validate it. That's why I introduced the belief of gun culture earlier. With that, the individual isn't really a problem either. But the culture arguably results in innocent deaths, children a notable portion of victims. People see it as punishment to reduce the number of weapons in circulation rather than considering the bigger community picture of no find for anyone who doesn't need one. The individual belief validating extreme beliefs results in excess death. It won't happen to me is the easy way to turn a blind eye to that scary aspect of what has become everyday life. We can't say someone's god is wrong, because then they can say the same about yours. It's like anything. One led light bulb won't make a difference unless everyone changes one light bulb. 

I would like to see a preacher stand up and say, OK, the guy in the sky stuff was wrong. Sorry about that. But how about we just keep coming along every Sunday without the promise of an afterlife or threat of a vengeful god, to give what we can to help those in need and maintain community.

If that happened unanimously, I don't think religion would last very long at all to be honest, and to be honest, I'm just not sure if that makes it relevant today or not. Maybe the species can ditch the myths by taking ownership of what God's job is expected to be. Or if we a look at the bigger picture and take responsibility for any part one has in it. 

I think that's why I have a lot of respect for Buddhists who seem to be in that middle ground. They take in the big picture and are more community orientated than Abrahamic beliefs. But from what I understand Buddhism is more a way of life than a Faith. And capable of revisions. That's a beautiful thing to me. 

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eight bits
6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Space? Depends on if we are the discoverer or discovered. I could see stone age progression regarding religion, bit I can't see advanced species still floundering in mythology. 

Maybe it depends on what that species does with its mythology. I could see spaceferers taking the Odyssey to heart, for example. Not because they believe it is historical, but because it models an ideal to learn from. Like what David Mamet's rabbi said when asked about the Jewish Bible as history, "It isn't what happened, it's what always happens."

Not always what should happen, which is why counterapologists have a field day with things like the commandment to dash the enemy's babies' heads on rocks. But what war is without its atrocities? And isn't there always somebody in authority who thought it was a good idea at the time? Or, a little closer to the individual responsibility, why we have a word like beserk.

Maybe the function of the myth is to remind us that war is never as simple as "the world would be better without this or that tin-horn dictator." It's easy to omit the babies' heads from the cost-benefit analysis; at least with the myth we recognize that just because nobody plans for it, babies' heads will be broken. Because that's what always happens.

Even the Christian myth might serve. It is at heart about a Jewish Hercules. I'm not sure why we need a Jewish version when we have the Greco-Roman originals, but OK. The great themes are there: the strong should give some thought to protedting the weaker, relieving suffering is a hero deed, but some achievements require suffering.

These are good things for us to know about ourselves and how the world works.

 

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