[Believers] Is religion still relevant ?

[Dejarma 5,322]

are you suggesting only the religious are capable of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity?

[jmccr8 22,106]

6 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

are you suggesting only the religious are capable of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity?

Hi Dejarma

You can copy/paste the comment and bring it to the other thread but cannot identify the author of the post this thread is for believers only

Thanks

jmccr8

[Crazy Horse 2,589]

12 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

are you suggesting only the religious are capable of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity?

No.

What I am suggesting is that when one has a belief system that encourages the practice and refinement of the ideals of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity, then a world with less conflict is possible.

Of course beliefs can be used to divide humanity as well.

As always, it boils down to personal responsibility.

[Dejarma 5,322]

9 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

No.

What I am suggesting is that when one has a belief system that encourages the practice and refinement of the ideals of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity, then a world with less conflict is possible.

Of course beliefs can be used to divide humanity as well.

As always, it boils down to personal responsibility.

oh right

[Mr Walker 6,725]

I really can't see how religion is relevant today. It's a comfort, a safety blanket. 

From other thread

I think this says a lot about some people 

if the y cant see how/why so many modern humans  desperately  NEED comfort and security, then of course the y cant see the relevance of religion 

The idea that suffering is natural,  good, and strengthening, is false and dangerous 

Religious beliefs have generally evolved to reduce suffering and offer hope.

That is their appeal to the human mind and why 90% of modern humans continue to believe in something greater than themselves or the material world  

It doesn't matter if such a being or thing exists.

Belief, in itself, helps people 

Insanity might be defined as choosing psychological  pain and suffering, rather than evolving a belief which relieves it.

If humanity ever rid itself of fear, pain, loss, grief etc., then religions and beliefs might slowly disappear  That is not likely to happen for millenia,   if it ever does 

Edited January 28 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker 6,725]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

From the perspective of a believer reading the other thread, it seems a lot of posters seem fixated on critiquing the believer and not the religion. They think believers are stupid, deluded, ignorant, crazy, brainwashed--anything but ordinary, reasonably intelligent people, like themselves, who made a cognitive choice in life philosophy. That the religious are happy and project an aura of contentment bewilders, even enrages them. They think there just has to be something wrong with them. Some--not all--but some seem unaware of the image they project of themselves as unhappy, broken and shattered people who--by sheer strength of will--managed to put most of the pieces back together, however imperfectly, and got on with their lives, but not particularly happy or contented with their lot. They almost always seem in emotional crisis mode about something. As I said, some, not all.

I guess we are all a bit lik tha t in everything, not just religious beliefs 

ie when we construct a world view, or part of one, which is comfortable safe and constructive for us, we find it hard to see how anyone else could disagree with it  But, given our different backgrounds and thus different needs, individuals  use a variety of secondary needs to met their primary needs

. Eg a person needs self  respect (primary need)

They might gain that by belonging to a supportive  religion, OR by denying the existence of gods 

[Mr Walker 6,725]

Hi Walker

You argue from the Christian perspective all the time and proclaim to have a 50+ year relationship with your god so that pretty much puts you in the other thread and would like to see you stimulate some activity in that thread as a personal favor.

I will read your posts in the other thread and will not answer personal requests unless it has something to do with the thread itself. I will leave this post as a remind but please do work with your group in the appropriate thread.

I know that many think that atheists are their problem but what I would like to see is how differing religions interact as I have seem plenty of Christians make slurs against Muslims and yet this is an aspect that needs to be addressed by religious communities atheists are not going to fix that for you. How is religion going to relevant in the future as mankind moves on to great challenges like space if they cannot resolve their problems. I am not suggesting war but am looking a how would believers try to resolve these issues on their own

Thank you

jmccr8

I respect your intent and wishes, but this illustrates the difficulties and limitations with your idea 

First, not every one is a believer/disbeliever.

Some have an open mind 

I have chosen to continue in this thread with some concern ie that it will validate your belief that i am a believer or relgious  

I am NOT a believer.

I know gods exist.

I am not. however. a  very sceptical person in the true sense Ie i dont disbelieve anything until its proven to be false (then i dont disbelieve it is false either. I know it is ) Everything has a potential to be true 

So I will try and post here, because while not a believer nor religious I am NOT really skeptical(but i am not credulous either) 

Second despite what you think I have no belief   in any religion 

i see religion as a unifying and divisive force, like nationalism   or race

ie it unifies some people  and divides others.

I live a  life based on christian moralities because  historically and even today Our(my)  society is based on Christian values 

If i lived in any  other  society i would follow their values and ethics and laws UNLESS they clashed with my own personal ones 

Eg Id be very happy living a pagan life or a liberal jewish muslim hindu one. I live a part jainist/ buddhist life and like many of their beliefs 

Some parts of christianity   produce more constructive results than others  But, IMO, a person should choose a belief which brings them greatest benefit in mental and physical wellbeing  (and tha t includes disbelief) 

Our abilty to destroy ourselves is our greatest threat but it is inseparable from  our abilty to leave the planet 

Our destiny and survival lies in our own hands 

We dont have to be united to survive, but we do need some tolerance of our differences 

[Hammerclaw 29,461]

11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I am NOT a believer.

I know gods exist.

Yes, Mr. Walker, you and Job have much in common.

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: ²⁶And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: ²⁷Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another's; though my reins be consumed within me.  Job

Yet you and Job's knowledge are from personal, perceptual experience, which others can in nowise perceive. They can only take you at your word, or not, as the case may be. At most, I can believe you believe, Mr. Walker, reserving judgment on whether or not your words are in anywise testament of factual proof.

[Mr Walker 6,725]

Bubble gum 

Take it to your thread Will you are deliberately trying to derail and have been reported, no one insists that you be a part of any thread.

jmccr8

 

Again this illustrates one problem.

Will says he does not believe in god but knows god.

That makes him a nonbeliever. but by your criteria (largely i suspect  because you don't believe gods are real and thus that humans can encounter them ) you say he must be a believer.

While i respect your opinion i dont accept your your right to define /label  who or what Iam.  Iam what i am, not what you believe i must be .  

I dont know Will's experience, and cant speak for him, but if he says he knows the reality of a god then i can accept that. It is more than possible. 

Edited January 29 by Mr Walker

[Hammerclaw 29,461]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Bubble gum 

Take it to your thread Will you are deliberately trying to derail and have been reported, no one insists that you be a part of any thread.

jmccr8

 

Again this illustrates one problem.

Will says he does not believe in god but knows god.

That makes him a nonbeliever. but by your criteria (largely i suspect  because you don't believe gods are real and thus that humans can encounter them ) you say he must be a believer.

While i respect your opinion i dont accept your ur right to define /label  who or what Iam  Iam what i am, not what you believe i must be .  

I dont know wills experience and cant speak for him but if he says he knows the reality of a god then i can accept that. It is more than possible. 

No it is not. Let's expand upon the OP's intent: believers and knowers this thread. Disbelievers and non knowers, the other thread. Anything you might want to say in the other thread, you knowers can say here. 

Edited January 29 by Hammerclaw

[Dejarma 5,322]

Quote

does not believe in god but knows god.

Quote

 

I am NOT a believer.

I know gods exist.

 

Here's my own one:

I do not believe in ducks. Ducks do not exist.

I fed the ducks over the park this morning!!

 What the fek is going on here!?

[Mr Walker 6,725]

14 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No it is not. Let's expand upon the OP's intent: believers and knowers this thread. Disbelievers and non knowers, the other thread. Anything you might want to say in the other thread, you knowers can say here. 

OK BUT that is not the criteria given

 Knowledge is far different from  belief, and generally only a person who believes gods  do  not exist lumps the two together Ie the y say, " Well gods don't exist, so your knowldge is (can be)  no more than a belief"  

Imagine 2 threads One for people who believe their partner exists/is real.

The other for those who believe they do not  exist, and are only a belief construct. 

 

Most people, with some thought, would reject both threads.

Ie the y KNOW their partner is real.

Belief  does not enter into it.

I've chosen this thread for my responses, but with the caveat that it does NOT mean I am a believer.

I am not.

I dont actually believe in anything, except belief constructs i deliberately build about people   

However i dont  actively  disbelieve anything is  possible, either. That would be ignorant, in my opinion   Eg I don't believe or disbelieve tha t the speed of light cannot be exceeded or at least circumvented 

I am happy to wait until anything is proven to me by evidences, or disproven by evidences (not lack of evidences, which  is not the same as evidences) 

[jmccr8 22,106]

Hi Guys

The treads are open again and we will be self moderating so I am asking for your help in making this work.

I noticed that I have been quoted in this thread and will remind everyone that I will not respond to answer to a quote unless it is specifically due to a problem in the thread. I would like some of you to take time to think about how we will become a global community with common ends to resolve differences in religion to create that unity. Now I know that some of you would rather argue with and atheist than discuss this with other believers but think you should take time to refect on this because there are problem between religious groups that and atheist can not and will not fix and in the end all off us will have a part to play but am interested in how you see the issue and what recommendations you can agree on.

jmccr8

[Hammerclaw 29,461]

Other than fringe fanatics, I know of no major issues among Christian denominations--even Catholic and Easter Orthodox have reconciled and lifted their mutual excommunications. Anti-Zionism is a problem that drags the larger Jewish Diaspora into it and exacerbates Jewish-Islamic tensions. In fact, practically every Islamic country with borders with a non Islamic country has some sort of issue or conflict with their neighbor and visa versa, The major worldwide issues are the historic ones between Islam and Christianity. 

Edited January 29 by Hammerclaw

[Hammerclaw 29,461]

It would seem, from the disparity of posts in this forum compared to the other one, that the overwhelming interest in the relevance of religion, is among those for whom religion is irrelevant. That is to say, the people who posit the question of it's relevance are overwhelmingly irreligious. Basically, this thread model generates a closed discussion along the lines of people who don't play golf, discussing the relevance of the sport, but excluding golfers from the discussion. It was not, of course, the intention of the OP, but for all intents and purposes, what seems to have occurred. It's understandable, as self-segregation is not typically practiced here.

Edited January 30 by Hammerclaw

[Guyver 5,068]

On 1/27/2021 at 1:17 PM, jmccr8 said:

We see a lot of turmoil in the world today can religious perspectives overcome the divisions that exist or do we need to evolve past personal beliefs to give everyone a decent life and move past the conflict?

In this thread if you are a skeptic you must respond in the skeptics thread and not in this one. If you post in a thread and are not a believer I will ask you to go to the other thread and ask for your post to be removed from his one.

You know what bothers me more than religious differences?  Political ones.  There was a time when religion had the power, but those days are long gone.

[Guyver 5,068]

On 1/28/2021 at 2:21 PM, Dejarma said:

are you suggesting only the religious are capable of forgiveness, compassion, kindness and generosity?

Religious people are capable of that?  Yes.  They are, but so is everyone else.  I helped my neighbor live not more than a week ago, and I didn’t do it for religious reasons.  I did it because it needed to be done.  The man is my neighbor.  Ironic isn’t it?  Neighbor care is something that Christians are supposed to be good at but the fact is that they are the only people in the world who are good to their neighbors.

[Guyver 5,068]

I meant, they are not the only people who help their neighbors.  Sigh.

[Guyver 5,068]

Anyway, to answer the question about whether religion is still relevant?  The answer, like everything else, is subjective.  If a person believes in religion because it helps them, and they are a better person for it, then that’s fine.  But if the religion teaches you that you should to kill the weak others, I say no.  Live and let live is what I believe in, that is my religion.

[Mr Walker 6,725]

22 hours ago, Guyver said:

Anyway, to answer the question about whether religion is still relevant?  The answer, like everything else, is subjective.  If a person believes in religion because it helps them, and they are a better person for it, then that’s fine.  But if the religion teaches you that you should to kill the weak others, I say no.  Live and let live is what I believe in, that is my religion.

I guess its partly because I've lived in small communities most of my life, but also how I was raised But i go further.

I believe each of us has duty to strengthen  help and educate those who are weaker or less powerful and to constrain the rights and privileges of these too powerful Ie in a community, it is not enough to just live your own life, without causing harm.

You need to contribute to the strength and abilty of your community to benefit all, including yourself

Eg during covid we had 

People bringing round home made frozen meals 

People giving us new,hand knitted, rugs 

Gifts of emergency foods with a long shelf life.

People dropping in home cooked biscuits for christmas 

A neighbour who gave us a home cooked christmas pudding  Another neighbour who used some of our mulberries to make us half a dozen delicious Mulberry pies 

A young woman and her partner who brought us around free firewood in the winter so we wouldn't run out. 

People  offering to do our shopping etc if it became too dangerous for us  to go out.

A free coffee/cappuccino, every day

People bringing us books and magazines to read 

People dropping in fresh fruit,  veggies, and eggs.

People who came and did the annual pruning and firewood  cutting  up, for free, and others who took us out to  their farm and cut a trailer load of firewood from  dead falls for us 

People and organisations who gave us vouchers to the bakery, local take away etc.

People messaging us or phoning us if we didn't go out for  couple of days, to make sure we were OK 

And of course we gave back, as and when, we could  

I probably missed a few.

I am happy, however, that these people chose to do more than JUST live their lives and let us live ours. 

Were these people all religious?

Probably about a third were. 

Another third definitely were not, and the final third  I dont know well enough to say 

 

Edited January 31 by Mr Walker

[Sherapy 31,543]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:09 PM, Guyver said:

I meant, they are not the only people who help their neighbors.  Sigh.

I am grateful for the opportunity to help and for the help I get, ones faith or lack of faith is immaterial. 
 

My Dad a Catholic once told me that for him opportunities to help others are truly gifts from god and when the situations present themselves he is honored to be of service. Personally, I think this is a great way to look at helping others. 
 

How is your friend doing? 

[Guyver 5,068]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I am grateful for the opportunity to help and for the help I get, ones faith or lack of faith is immaterial. 
 

My Dad a Catholic once told me that for him opportunities to help others are truly gifts from god and when the situations present themselves he is honored to be of service. Personally, I think this is a great way to look at helping others. 
 

How is your friend doing? 

He seems to be recovering nicely now.  Last week not so much.  Thank you for asking.