Spiritualism, Secularism, Atheism

[Guyver]

35 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

Since the truth of God is always self-evident; in my opinion, it isn't until one releases themselves from the need to have someone explain God's truth to them that a real sense of assurance and happiness can begin.

I just disagree that the truth of God is self evident.  I think that if a person wishes to see God in things, then they will.  So, that makes it more of subjective valuation based on expectation rather any kind of self evident fact.  I offered you an analogy but you didn’t give any indication that you even read it.  If the truth of God were self evident, no one would deny it.  That’s not the case.

Since you believe that God exists and has revealed himself to you, you expect to see things from him and this confirms your belief.  But, to another person,  say an atheist, they don’t believe God exists and therefore do not expect to see evidence or occurrences that confirm their belief.  Both views are subjective in nature and simply represent opposite sides of the spectrum, IMO.

In any event, you made many one-liner type statements yesterday regarding God and/or truth and presented your opinions as if they were factual, yet it seems they are just opinion.  You said I know the truth but reject it and I disagreed with you.  You were never able to state what truth is, or demonstrate how I know it but choose to reject it.  So, I don’t appreciate that at all and it makes me thing you’re just playing some type of head games.

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I just disagree that the truth of God is self evident.  I think that if a person wishes to see God in things, then they will.  So, that makes it more of subjective valuation based on expectation rather any kind of self evident fact.  I offered you an analogy but you didn’t give any indication that you even read it.  If the truth of God were self evident, no one would deny it.  That’s not the case.

Since you believe that God exists and has revealed himself to you, you expect to see things from him and this confirms your belief.  But, to another person,  say an atheist, they don’t believe God exists and therefore do not expect to see evidence or occurrences that confirm their belief.  Both views are subjective in nature and simply represent opposite sides of the spectrum, IMO.

In any event, you made many one-liner type statements yesterday regarding God and/or truth and presented your opinions as if they were factual, yet it seems they are just opinion.  You said I know the truth but reject it and I disagreed with you.  You were never able to state what truth is, or demonstrate how I know it but choose to reject it.  So, I don’t appreciate that at all and it makes me thing you’re just playing some type of head games.

It comes down to self-validating his reality tunnel. While expecting others to see what he sees.

[XenoFish]

40 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Exactly, Xeno. One has the choice to stop and be content in one's misery, or keep searching for surcease from sorrow. In my humble opinion, for me, at least, it's better to keep searching and die with my boots on.

I just want rest from the inner turmoil.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

I just disagree that the truth of God is self evident.  I think that if a person wishes to see God in things, then they will.  So, that makes it more of subjective valuation based on expectation rather any kind of self evident fact.  I offered you an analogy but you didn’t give any indication that you even read it.  If the truth of God were self evident, no one would deny it.  That’s not the case.

Since you believe that God exists and has revealed himself to you, you expect to see things from him and this confirms your belief.  But, to another person,  say an atheist, they don’t believe God exists and therefore do not expect to see evidence or occurrences that confirm their belief.  Both views are subjective in nature and simply represent opposite sides of the spectrum, IMO.

In any event, you made many one-liner type statements yesterday regarding God and/or truth and presented your opinions as if they were factual, yet it seems they are just opinion.  You said I know the truth but reject it and I disagreed with you.  You were never able to state what truth is, or demonstrate how I know it but choose to reject it.  So, I don’t appreciate that at all and it makes me thing you’re just playing some type of head games.

All these prodigies of divinity have one thing in common, they all try to talk a good act, some better than others. That's all you get out of them. None of them can walk on water or move a mountain. They're all just charlatans and snake oil peddlers.

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I just disagree that the truth of God is self evident.  I think that if a person wishes to see God in things, then they will.  So, that makes it more of subjective valuation based on expectation rather any kind of self evident fact.  I offered you an analogy but you didn’t give any indication that you even read it.  If the truth of God were self evident, no one would deny it.  That’s not the case.

Since you believe that God exists and has revealed himself to you, you expect to see things from him and this confirms your belief.  But, to another person,  say an atheist, they don’t believe God exists and therefore do not expect to see evidence or occurrences that confirm their belief.  Both views are subjective in nature and simply represent opposite sides of the spectrum, IMO.

In any event, you made many one-liner type statements yesterday regarding God and/or truth and presented your opinions as if they were factual, yet it seems they are just opinion.  You said I know the truth but reject it and I disagreed with you.  You were never able to state what truth is, or demonstrate how I know it but choose to reject it.  So, I don’t appreciate that at all and it makes me thing you’re just playing some type of head games.

 

Are you able to recognize truth?

If you are then live by it.

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I just want rest from the inner turmoil.

You can't. Your stomach is always with you. Try walking it off.

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

Are you able to recognize truth?

If you are then live by it.

 

 

To you, Will, truth is a dog-eared paperback. Forgive us all if we don't follow you into the wilderness.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Guyver]

I used to be a Christian who believes in God, Jesus, and the Bible.  I don’t believe those things anymore, but my wife still does.  Sometimes we have a little conflict over this, but it’s usually only if I say something.  If I’m just quiet, and nod in approval as she’s telling me something, we don’t have a problem.  But inside my own mind, I’m screaming at myself - SHE GETS To BELIEVE anything she wants just as you do.  But, if I say something in response, like....I don’t believe any of that anymore because it doesn’t actually work....and I provide examples, then I think it hurts her feelings.  So, I try not to do that.  But the fact is, that people who believe in God often believe in the power of prayer, you know, prayer changes things.  But does it?  If you try it for yourself, you will have that answer for yourself, just as I did.  Prayer doesn’t change anything that I can see except for things that a person could change for themselves with the power of their mind. fWIW.

[Guyver]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It comes down to self-validating his reality tunnel. While expecting others to see what he sees.

Exactly.

[Guyver]

9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

All these prodigies of divinity have one thing in common, they all try to talk a good act, some better than others. That's all you get out of them. None of them can walk on water or move a mountain. They're all just charlatans and snake oil peddlers.

More and more, I’m beginning to agree with this completely.

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I used to be a Christian who believes in God, Jesus, and the Bible.  I don’t believe those things anymore, but my wife still does.  Sometimes we have a little conflict over this, but it’s usually only if I say something.  If I’m just quiet, and nod in approval as she’s telling me something, we don’t have a problem.  But inside my own mind, I’m screaming at myself - SHE GETS To BELIEVE anything she wants just as you do.  But, if I say something in response, like....I don’t believe any of that anymore because it doesn’t actually work....and I provide examples, then I think it hurts her feelings.  So, I try not to do that.  But the fact is, that people who believe in God often believe in the power of prayer, you know, prayer changes things.  But does it?  If you try it for yourself, you will have that answer for yourself, just as I did.  Prayer doesn’t change anything that I can see except for things that a person could change for themselves with the power of their mind. fWIW.

 

Guyver,

To me everything you just said says a lot more when the word 'prayer' is replaced with the word 'faith'.

 

 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

But the fact is, that people who believe in God often believe in the power of prayer, you know, prayer changes things.  But does it?  If you try it for yourself, you will have that answer for yourself, just as I did.  Prayer doesn’t change anything that I can see except for things that a person could change for themselves with the power of their mind. fWIW.

You're right though. it appears to only change the individual. I suppose a lot of prayers are superficial as well. 

[Guyver]

10 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

Are you able to recognize truth?

If you are then live by it.

 

 

If I smash my hand with a hammer, it hurts.  That is truth.  I live by it by doing my best to avoid smashing my hand with a hammer.  This has nothing to do with God and everything to do with common sense IMO.

[+Hammerclaw]

12 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I used to be a Christian who believes in God, Jesus, and the Bible.  I don’t believe those things anymore, but my wife still does.  Sometimes we have a little conflict over this, but it’s usually only if I say something.  If I’m just quiet, and nod in approval as she’s telling me something, we don’t have a problem.  But inside my own mind, I’m screaming at myself - SHE GETS To BELIEVE anything she wants just as you do.  But, if I say something in response, like....I don’t believe any of that anymore because it doesn’t actually work....and I provide examples, then I think it hurts her feelings.  So, I try not to do that.  But the fact is, that people who believe in God often believe in the power of prayer, you know, prayer changes things.  But does it?  If you try it for yourself, you will have that answer for yourself, just as I did.  Prayer doesn’t change anything that I can see except for things that a person could change for themselves with the power of their mind. fWIW.

Prayer is like chanting and singing, or meditation. Sometimes, it's the only thing we can do about something we really can't do anything about. It's spiritual therapy. It a positive way of easing one's own emotional suffering.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Will Due]

Just now, Guyver said:

If I smash my hand with a hammer, it hurts.  That is truth.  I live by it by doing my best to avoid smashing my hand with a hammer.  This has nothing to do with God and everything to do with common sense IMO.

 

Everything that has to do with common sense has something to do with God.

Faith being at the top of the list.

 

 

[Guyver]

2 minutes ago, Will Do said:

Everything that has to do with common sense has something to do with God.

Faith being at the top of the list.

OK.  I give.  I’m just getting tired of going around in circles with you.  If faith works for you then that’s great and I wish you well.

[Will Due]

42 minutes ago, Guyver said:

OK.  I give.  I’m just getting tired of going around in circles with you.  If faith works for you then that’s great and I wish you well.

 

And I wish you well too.

There's so much more I'd like to say but just like you described what goes on between you and your wife, I also think it's best to not say anything sometimes. At least then, it will not add to the already long list of things that become something else to be misunderstood.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Will Do

[+Nuclear Wessel]

 

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

OK.  I give.  I’m just getting tired of going around in circles with you.  If faith works for you then that’s great and I wish you well.

Yeah, no point. He's just using flowery parlance in an effort to seem profound.

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Some are blind to it, some are deliberately ignoring it, some have been brainwashed, and so on and so forth.

But to say that this is "a disability beyond their control" is way too pessimistic.

As I mentioned in the above post, free will works both ways and anyone can change their mind in a heartbeat, and decide to try another path..

 i liked your post above this one, and to some extent I agree, but I am not sure you can will yourself to sense "god", any more than you can will yourself to see, if you are blind 

I don't know enough to be certain, but I think that, while it is relatively easy for some minds to connect with god it is very hard for others.

As you  say, this may be due to upbringing, personal experiences, or different needs of a person 

The question then is, how do you alter the minds of those people so the y CAN perceive god, and do you have a right to try and  do so

In my experience if god really needs a person who is blind to it, then god will open the eyes and senses of that person; and, if a person truly needs god, they will  voluntarily open their senses to it. 

I think god is all around us and inside of us.

It is a part of us, and we are a part of it.

However, many humans have problems integrating their physical minds and bodies to operate safely, effectively, and productively,   let alone connecting to,  and integrating,  god in their mind 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Interesting that you conclude that others that do not agree with you subjectively are disabled, unlucky and afflicted.

Wow, this is a projection of a superiority complex have you explored this in any depth, do you feel like a failure in some way? 

 

 

It is the only logical conclusion IF my experiences are real and genuine,  and IF connection to "god"empowers a person and gives them extra strength ability and empowerments/gifts

its not about superiority /inferiority. A blind peronis not inferior to a sighted person, the y just cant use one of their senses  and have restrictions on their abilities which must be overcome by effort. and using other senss 

You judge me and thus see my words as judging 

You dont want or need the empowerment "god"gives a person  That's OK, but it exists, and is available to those who need it 

Choosing not to access and use it could be seen as choosing to remain blind when this could be fixed 

I know myself very well 

Ive said before. Allowing for physical disabilities, every human is equal We are more than equal we are all actually one You aren't my sister you ARE me and I am you  When i see you hurting i also hurt  

If I should judge you ,this is a judgement on myself 

However, humans chose to use their abilities to greater or lesser extents Some sacrifice everything to become sporting stars others become  healers  or leaders Some choose to be carers or teachers  Some serve the community as hairdressers, cleaners, or groundspersons. Intrinsically every such person is of equal worth. 

  A few choose to be parasites, living off the efforts of others  (where a nation allows this to occur through its social welfare systems)  or thieves,  taking what they need from others  Unless their needs are genuine, and their society is not providing for them, then such people should face consequences like being required to work /do voluntary work for govt benefits,     or punished for theft 

Some just remain quietly in their communities, helping people wherever they can.

The y will never be rich or famous, but they are just as important as the rich and famous, and often more"worthy"   I admire people who use their gifts and talents, who work hard, and discipline themselves.  The y are no greater than anyone else, but they do more good, and thus, in one sense, are more valuable 

(philosophy 101) 

I only judge myself against my own potential, and the person  I could be. Thus, superiority/inferiority doesn't enter into my thinking 

I am very happy being the person i have chosen to be, and constructed myself to become 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, when we consider how our younger selves put our older selves smack dab in the middle of conflicts and conflagrations.

Well,  generally, I  personally  avoided most of those and the ones i couldn't avoid i came out of unscathed    That was in part luck, but also good management  

You cant blame the past   for who you  are, what you become, or your choices.

Those are down to us as individuals 

The best we can do is make the world a better place for the future and for future humanity  

In many ways we are doing this very well. In others we are failing miserably 

EG there is no time or place i would rather be born into than the time i was EXCEPT for now and in the future. The future, while imperfect,  will be better than the past, for most people 

[TashaMarie]

On 30/01/2021 at 2:49 AM, Hammerclaw said:

This an open discussion about the significance and impact of the choices we make of life philosophies, religions and spiritualism and their impact on each of our personal lives. What our choices mean to us, personally, how they color and compliment our existence. Why we each think our own choices are best for us. One may expect widely divergent viewpoints, deviating sharply from others, at times. This is meant to be an eclectic thread, not just for any particular viewpoint, open to all spiritual and secular, as not all all life philosophies are necessarily religious or spiritual. I ask that we be kind to one another and withhold harsh criticisms and judgment. All are welcome here.

I do not think I am as deep as some people here are.  I am certainly not religious and wouldn't say I'm spiritual either.  If I'm being totally honest I'm not 100% sure what the difference is.  

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're just a little cosmic bug, Mr. Walker. You live breath, suffer, age and die, just like all us other little bugs. To no one but yourself do you display anything resembling a spark of divinity; you give not and neither do you receive. The one thing you do well, is talk a good act--but your performance is lacking.

I see tha t as how you think about yourself  It is not how i see myself and my relationship to the real word both physically or spiritually 

There are thousands of human beings alive today who would not have been if not for me There are thousands more who are better educated and perhaps happier, healthier, and more empowered individuals, than the y would have been without me 

That is the power and privilege of being a teacher in a rich prosperous country and having the skills and resources to help others all over the world  and in my local community   

If i am a bug it is viral bug in the system  which strengthens, empowers, protects, and heals.

It isn't strong enough to heal the whole system but it does good work in a small part of the system 

if others also "went viral" then the whole system could be healed 

I give constantly but i leave others free to receive or not receive my gifts 

Of course, those around me often give of themselves in equal measure  (and some are able to give more than i do) and that is what makes a community strong and healthy 

Ps of course we all live breathe age  and die  

But suffer? 

No, suffering is a choice of response.

I choose not to suffer from  fear, pain, disability etc. I embrace life, and enjoy it all 

I will die with no regrets, no guilt, and nothing left undone which i could have done .

 

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

To read, one must first have the intelligence to comprehend abstraction. At least half of humanity is deficient in that regard and are only practical literalists who rarely read on their own time. Five to ten percent of the adult population, even with twelve years of public school behind them, are virtually illiterate. So, Mr. Walker, 'though it pains me to have to tell you, you are exceptional.

Two different things 

one can read in a concrete sense without comprehending abstraction. However, i agree that it seems to be the more complex skills of thinking which humans sometimes lack 

Unless disabled every child has the potential to learn. Ive taken teenagers who couldn't read or write their own name and given them good functional reading skills  (one of the most rewarding times of my career) 

Measuring intelligence is really just measuring how well children have been taught or have learned to fulfil that potential to learn 

Statistically indeed, when it comes to reading i am somewhat exceptional (but so is all my family, and my wife  )  

However,  in  innate /potential intelligence, and abilty to think,  I don't see myself as exceptional, just better trained   by exceptional parents and teachers 

I've taught teenagers who were smarter, more intelligent and quicker, than i was at their age 

(one got perfect scores in all of her pre university entrance courses,  something achieved by only one or two students in each year   ) 

Naturally some went on   to do great things 

On the other hand my niece has a double degree in law and environmental studies, but chose  to be an instructor at a riding school in the Adelaide Hills  for a basic wage, because she   simply loves horses and riding.   My nephew, who has a Phd in nuclear molecular biology, chose a job constructing chemical data sheets for products (a health and safety requirement for all chemical products) in Canberra because his partner , who is a psychiatrist,  got an excellent job there .

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

All these prodigies of divinity have one thing in common, they all try to talk a good act, some better than others. That's all you get out of them. None of them can walk on water or move a mountain. They're all just charlatans and snake oil peddlers.

What does walking on water or moving a mountain have to do with truly god- like powers ?

I agree that there are many snake oil salesmen and charlatans. but those with the true gifts of a god can heal, empower and change a person's life  Thats more useful and powerful than walking on water  (been there done that) or moving a mountain (anyone can do this given enough machinery.)  I regularly drive past mountains where i used to fossick for amethysts, which no longer exist because the y were mined for iron ore .