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Hammerclaw

Spiritualism, Secularism, Atheism

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Mr Walker
On 1/30/2021 at 6:53 PM, Hammerclaw said:

We have nothing God needs, Will, certainly not the arrogance and hubris of pride in declaring allegiance. We exist only at the sufferance of the Universe, Will, and whatever God's there be. 

Not a philosophy I can accept or abide by,  although i can understand it.

  We have no say about coming into this universe.

But, from the time we are born, we   exist as our own masters, and in control of our own lives and destiny. 

We are not here on the sufferance of anything, from  god to universe.

  WE are here because we  choose to BE here, and to make all we can of life 

Even where our choices are curtailed by circumstance, the ultimate freedoms of choice exist Ie how we respond to and perceive those circumstances 

if we have nothing which a god requires of us, then why is a being a god to us.? Ie why would a  god deign to be a god to us, if it had nothing it required from us.?

   Any god and worshipper form a symbiotic partnership, with each serving some need of the other.

Every one of us, from  the least to the most powerful, is a part of this,  with a role  to play, and something to contribute.  

 

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, Guyver said:

Aren’t we not equipped to answer that?  Many people think they have the answer to that and claim a certain “knowing” about God, but they don’t do anything except make claims.  For example, I was watching a PhD who got “enlightenment “ on YouTube yesterday and considering what he had to say.  He made many claims about God, and what (it) is like, and also that all of us have a “guardian” angel.  But, he never stated HOW he knows this.  What good does that do?  It only appeals to those who already believe it, or want to, in the first place.  
 

I would love to believe that I have a guardian angel, as does everyone who lives, but I would consider it foolish to believe that just because someone says it.  At the same time, I have had experiences that could be attributed to a guardian angel, but it could be that or something else since I have no way of knowing.  Something saved me a time or two, I’m sure of that, but what it was and why it did it, I have no idea.  

I find tha t interesting but sad

Could you expand a little?  In what way did he fail to explain to you how he knew 

Ive spent 16 years here  trying to explain how " I know", to people They either accept it on faith or outright reject that it is possible 

I dont know how he could claim to know tha t everyone has a guardian angel

Even if he has one it doesn't mean everyone does 

The cosmic consciousness(god) does surround and inhabit all of us and indeed it does act as a guardian angel to many. BUT one must be able to sense it, accept it, and act on it's presence.

  SOme people are so blind to its presence  and disconnected from  it, that it just cant help them, or make contact with them.

  Sometimes it may physically help, or save them, but the y dont realise what happened to them The y think it was luck or a 6th sense   That sounds a little like your own experiences.  Is there any way you can open yourself up to it any more?

Some  people are god blind and dont see the presence of god, just as a colour blind person may not see colours or a blind person may not see anything around them  even though others can

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

And I said you can reject the truth even when you know it's true.

 

 

Will, I have to agree with Guyver on this one 

Once one knows, then one knows, and it is clear 

but until then, one can GENUINELY not know The y may suspect, but many things in a person's llfe can condition  them to not hear, sense, or respond to, the presence of god,   and some people just aren't able to take things on pure faith 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Guyver said:

One big happy disfunctional family here.  Would it be helpful to have new people discussing the same things?

Don't know if it would be helpful, but it would be refreshing :) 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, lightly said:

I was raised by a Methodist minister's daughter (who took me to church sometimes and went about her housework singing Hymns). and a dad who spent most of his childhood in a Catholic orphanage..(and never mentioned it or God...but did confide to me ,on his deathbed more or less, that he would silently say Hail Marys...while at work to time various work activities...this many Hail Marys= this giant gear box was now Full of grease..etc.).    

Anyway, so, as for me I grew up as a believer of one sort or another...and still am.   I cannot express my belief without sounding ridiculous...but , I just have this KNOWING that there is something all inclusive about the Existence..and Being of Everything.  The universe is not some purely mechanical and therefore, DEAD thing.   That's about all I know.   I don't see God as the old man in the sky God of my youth..I see God as EVERYTHING. ( I told you it sounds ridiculous..when put into words). But in my heart/being..it is as obvious as the sun in the sky.   :).    

It seems the closest thing to religion my belief resembles are some of the most basic and oldest beliefs of Hindhuism...wherein....all things are some sort of aspect of God... Physicality is sort of like the Body of God...and all life is the life of God.. and all else is sort of the thoughts and dreams and Being of God.   God  ,and therefore all else,  just. IS.     Before and after time... And ,actually, All is illusory except GOD.   ALL IS ONE.   I like my belief because of it's Simplicity.     But I guess I just complicated it nearly beyond recognition by trying to put it into words.      To each his own huh?  ..thanks for asking Hammerclaw..I hope this is sort of what you had in mind.  ?    :P

 

 

seriously enlightened.

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Those who are certain about the existence or non-existence of "god" are equally foolish. As we have no real standard for what we need to look for. All that we do have comes from books created by people, wrapped in their own expectations and desires. People will believe whatever they wish to believe because they want to believe in it. If their beliefs harm none, does it even matter?

Unless the y have encountered "god' themselves (or an aspect or avatar of a god)  (which is quite possible if one (or more) exists) 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

If God gives you the light of truth then he gives everyone the light of truth.

Yet there are those who will seek to deny it. 

Why is that?

 

 

IMO some are blind to it.  Those of us lucky enough to be able to see shouldn't condemn them for a  disability beyond their control 

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Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Guyver said:

Because God is invisible and silent.

Then it is a useless god, and not worthy of our connection to it 

If it was invisible and silent to everyone, then   no one would ever know it was there.  

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only thing we can hope for is to choose to do the best with the time allotted us in life.  whatever is after life won't do us a damn bit of good in the here and now. It's up to us because we're here and nobody else, just us Thinking is hard--that's why so many people judge, instead. You need to stop judging and start thinking instead. No one and no thing, no politician, no priest no religion and no ideology is going to do it for you. Some people hate free will and want someone to drive the car for them. Yet, in the end, we're all in the driver's seat, with no one else to hold accountable if we go off the road.

Several people have said this (bolded bit)in the last few days 

Do some people really find this to be true? 

Thinking, clearly, logically and rationally, and being able to see consequences and make comparative judgements about choices of behaviour, is  simple and easy.

it requires no effort at all, unlike   physical work     It is  something I've been doing all my life, and consciously so since the age of 3 or 4 

I was raised from infancy to think like that.

BUT I hadn't realised others found it actually hard or challenging to think.   I guess it is a bit like reading

For me tha t a breeze and requires no effort a t all, yet i see some people struggle to read a sentence, and then never read a book in their lives because it is so hard to do.

Now, i can comprehend people finding reading hard, but thinking? HOW can it be difficult? It is a simple process , although some skills are required, and practice improves those skills  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Xeno-Fish
13 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think you said it well, as I also feel that way.  There is no judgmental being sitting around decreeing humans must...  or deciding who belongs to it and who doesn't (because that really is what judaic religions are about, who belongs and who doesn't, what rules the deity insists on - that no two people can agree on, etc.)  Existence is inclusive and I have had that Knowing as well since I can remember.  I consider myself an atheist because I am not on the fence about whether there is a "god" or not, there isn't.  And saying that I also have to say that I have a natural moral compass that is part of who I am in this experience of being human on planet earth.   

When spirituality becomes religion the human element becomes dominate. The can do's can't do's. It becomes more ritualistic and controlling. Where ideology replaces common sense and in some ways decency. 

Spirituality can run a variety of beliefs. Though I feel the common view is some universal belonging. Once you give it a name, identity and opinion a god is born. Overlaying a human persona and desire onto something unknown. 

Religion ruined Christianity for me. Though I suspect some of the positive philosophy became unconscious in me. 

Faith to me is about trust, a form of optimism. Not super powers or regrowing limbs, instant healing of the blind or 99 year old great aunt ruth is miraculously healed of death. 

May be it's about trusting things can get better and having the will to act in confidence towards that belief.

Faith without works is dead? 

Edited by XenoFish
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Crazy Horse
18 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

If God gives you the light of truth then he gives everyone the light of truth.

Yet there are those who will seek to deny it. 

Why is that?

 

 

In my opinion Will, this, and a lot of other things too, boil down to free will.

The parable of the prodigal son springs to mind, where the young man left his Father, did a bunch of crazy stuff, realised that it wasn't working, and went home. His Fathers love was always there, yet the young man thought he knew better and it wasn't until he came to his senses and decided to make amends that things got better.

Free will cuts both ways, but every action has its consequence and those actions born of self-interest have a very different out-come to those engendered from love.

I guess at some point, folk just have enough of suffering and seek answers elsewhere!

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Crazy Horse
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

IMO some are blind to it.  Those of us lucky enough to be able to see shouldn't condemn them for a  disability beyond their control 

Some are blind to it, some are deliberately ignoring it, some have been brainwashed, and so on and so forth.

But to say that this is "a disability beyond their control" is way too pessimistic.

As I mentioned in the above post, free will works both ways and anyone can change their mind in a heartbeat, and decide to try another path..

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Sherapy
On 1/30/2021 at 10:14 AM, Will Do said:

 

He isn't silent at all.

He speaks volumes in how he is reflected in our lives.

And you can see it in the lives of some of the posters right here in this thread.

 

 

Can you expand on this?

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Sherapy
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

IMO some are blind to it.  Those of us lucky enough to be able to see shouldn't condemn them for a  disability beyond their control 

Interesting that you conclude that others that do not agree with you subjectively are disabled, unlucky and afflicted.

Wow, this is a projection of a superiority complex have you explored this in any depth, do you feel like a failure in some way? 

 

 

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Will Do
50 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Can you expand on this?

 

"You shall know them by their fruits"

I haven't been a member here very long but long enough to see God speaking through the lives of some of the posters right here in this thread in very striking ways regarding their spiritual growth. 

In my opinion, amongst others, you are one of them and so is XenoFish.

 

On 1/30/2021 at 10:08 AM, XenoFish said:

That's the problem. I have opened my eyes. Which is why I wonder what need is there to attack beliefs that really do no harm and amount nothing in another person's life. I've begun to heavily question my intentions. For years I ripped apart beliefs, why I asked. I was afraid. Afraid to have hope, afraid of having no stability nor control in my life. So I started toying with belief again. My mood shifted. I started to get better. Yet never shaking that demon of despair. And here I am. Engaging in a bit of faith. Finding my life getting better very slowly. Yet I know full well the view of such a mental framework. I can't claim I know for certain. But I do know that sometimes faith, a bit of hope is what people need. Even if it's foolhardy.  

 

To expand on what I see here, I'll just refer to Crazy Horse's comment about it.

 

7 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The parable of the prodigal son springs to mind, where the young man left his Father, did a bunch of crazy stuff, realised that it wasn't working, and went home. His Fathers love was always there, yet the young man thought he knew better and it wasn't until he came to his senses and decided to make amends that things got better.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Will Do
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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

"You shall know them by their fruits"

I haven't been a member here very long but long enough to see God speaking through the lives of some of the posters right here in this thread in very striking ways regarding their spiritual growth. 

In my opinion, amongst others, you are one of them and so is Xenofish.

 

 

To expand on what I see here, I'll just refer to CH's comment about it.

 

 

 

What do you observe in others specifically, that lead you to conclude god? 
 

What is it about me, I ask as I find it interesting that your examples are so diverse. 
 

And, I am asking you because I am interested in your thoughts on the matter. I think there is a lot more to you than meets the eye. 

I appreciate that one is known by their fruits, or patterns of behavior. 
 

I can see a parallel in that you and Xeno in the sense you are seekers, meaning looking for a path that vibes for you at this point in your respective growth. 

Your thoughts?

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Unfortunately very few humans actually do grow up (although most grow out of childhood and a reasonable number grow out of adolescence)

Few evolve the wisdoms and disciplines  of maturity :)  They think with their emotions and respond irrationally, using their  primate biological drivers  The y do things which hurt themselves and others, often despite KNOWING their behaviors are likely to hurt 

Adult humans can predict the outcomes of their behaviors, and are thus responsible for those outcomes, yet many refuse to accept  accountability for their behaviours  and many even try to avoid this by using things which reduce their control and discipline 

Iwas thinking and planning for "70 years old me" when  i was a child,  although my  written plans generally  only went for a couple of decades at  a time, to  allow for adjustment 

I am now almost exactly who and what  I planned to be in my "old age," as a preschooler, and then as an adolescent  Of course, initially, i had a lot of help from my parents and grandmother  developing the skills  required

I tend to agree that the young sometimes . look foolish to the elderly, but that is caused by  a lack of experience. it is why we are more tolerant of the young than of the mature in our society The young are a reflection of their parents, but as adults they take responsibility for their own behaviours.

  Anyway ,the previous post was my answer to the questions you raised in your thought provoking OP 

Yeah, when we consider how our younger selves put our older selves smack dab in the middle of conflicts and conflagrations.

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Hammerclaw
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not a philosophy I can accept or abide by,  although i can understand it.

  We have no say about coming into this universe.

But, from the time we are born, we   exist as our own masters, and in control of our own lives and destiny. 

We are not here on the sufferance of anything, from  god to universe.

  WE are here because we  choose to BE here, and to make all we can of life 

Even where our choices are curtailed by circumstance, the ultimate freedoms of choice exist Ie how we respond to and perceive those circumstances 

if we have nothing which a god requires of us, then why is a being a god to us.? Ie why would a  god deign to be a god to us, if it had nothing it required from us.?

   Any god and worshipper form a symbiotic partnership, with each serving some need of the other.

Every one of us, from  the least to the most powerful, is a part of this,  with a role  to play, and something to contribute.  

 

You're just a little cosmic bug, Mr. Walker. You live breath, suffer, age and die, just like all us other little bugs. To no one but yourself do you display anything resembling a spark of divinity; you give not and neither do you receive. The one thing you do well, is talk a good act--but your performance is lacking.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Xeno-Fish
13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I can see a parallel in that you and Xeno in the sense you are seekers, meaning looking for a path that vibes for you at this point in your respective growth. 

Your thoughts?

Sure I'm seeking, but it has nothing to do with 'knowing' or the illusion of 'knowing'. Because no amount of knowledge and certainty I might every obtain I will forever be ignorant.

Edited by XenoFish
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Will Do
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

What do you observe in others specifically, that lead you to conclude god? 
 

What is it about me, I ask as I find it interesting that your examples are so diverse. 
 

And, I am asking you because I am interested in your thoughts on the matter. I think there is a lot more to you than meets the eye. 

I appreciate that one is known by their fruits, or patterns of behavior. 
 

I can see a parallel in that you and Xeno in the sense you are seekers, meaning looking for a path that vibes for you at this point in your respective growth. 

Your thoughts?

 

 

I added and then deleted the following that's bolded from my previous post after I saw your reply.

It's obvious to me that the occurrence of these kinds of things are rooted in coming to terms with the realization that no one is responsible but themselves for an explanation of the truth.

Since the truth of God is always self-evident; in my opinion, it isn't until one releases themselves from the need to have someone explain God's truth to them that a real sense of assurance and happiness can begin.

 

 

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Hammerclaw
9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Several people have said this (bolded bit)in the last few days 

Do some people really find this to be true? 

Thinking, clearly, logically and rationally, and being able to see consequences and make comparative judgements about choices of behaviour, is  simple and easy.

it requires no effort at all, unlike   physical work     It is  something I've been doing all my life, and consciously so since the age of 3 or 4 

I was raised from infancy to think like that.

BUT I hadn't realised others found it actually hard or challenging to think.   I guess it is a bit like reading

For me tha t a breeze and requires no effort a t all, yet i see some people struggle to read a sentence, and then never read a book in their lives because it is so hard to do.

Now, i can comprehend people finding reading hard, but thinking? HOW can it be difficult? It is a simple process , although some skills are required, and practice improves those skills  

To read, one must first have the intelligence to comprehend abstraction. At least half of humanity is deficient in that regard and are only practical literalists who rarely read on their own time. Five to ten percent of the adult population, even with twelve years of public school behind them, are virtually illiterate. So, Mr. Walker, 'though it pains me to have to tell you, you are exceptional.

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Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Sure I'm seeking, but it has nothing to do with 'knowing' or the illusion of 'knowing'. Because no amount of knowledge and certainty I might every obtain I will forever be ignorant.

Quite the contrary, Xeno. Your not ignorant--far from it. You know a little too much and it makes you miserable.

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Xeno-Fish
2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Quite the contrary, Xeno. Your not ignorant--far from it. You know a little too much and it makes you miserable.

The burden of intelligence.

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Will Do

 

*

 

Edited by Will Do

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Hammerclaw
Just now, XenoFish said:

The burden of intelligence.

Exactly, Xeno. One has the choice to stop and be content in one's misery, or keep searching for surcease from sorrow. In my humble opinion, for me, at least, it's better to keep searching and die with my boots on.

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