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Hammerclaw

Spiritualism, Secularism, Atheism

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White Crane Feather
On 1/29/2021 at 6:49 PM, Hammerclaw said:

This an open discussion about the significance and impact of the choices we make of life philosophies, religions and spiritualism and their impact on each of our personal lives. What our choices mean to us, personally, how they color and compliment our existence. Why we each think our own choices are best for us. One may expect widely divergent viewpoints, deviating sharply from others, at times. This is meant to be an eclectic thread, not just for any particular viewpoint, open to all spiritual and secular, as not all all life philosophies are necessarily religious or spiritual. I ask that we be kind to one another and withhold harsh criticisms and judgment. All are welcome here.

I never felt that it was a choice. Even back in my teenage years, when I was a Christian, I didn’t chose to believe. I just did. I realize now that it was an artifact of wanting be a good person, but I still wouldn’t call it a choice. Even to this day the positions that I currently hold are not choices. There are some things that I am unsure about, but anything that I would call a belief is not a choice at all. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that pretend to be religious, but I wouldn’t call those legitimate spiritual beliefs. If somone truely Beleives reguardless of the subconscious reasons why, it’s still not a choice. 

Edited by White Crane Feather
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Liquid Gardens
46 minutes ago, third_eye said:

It's hard to separate the myth from the legend I guess, Jimi was also very much in and around pool / snooker / billiard parlors during his rise in London too if I'm not mistaken. 

I think you are right about that, and it's especially hard to separate myth from legend from the facts in Jimi's case as there's a lot crammed into a short lifetime.

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Hammerclaw
50 minutes ago, White Crane Feather said:

I never felt that it was a choice. Even back in my teenage years, when I was a Christian, I didn’t chose to believe. I just did. I realize now that it was an artifact of wanting be a good person, but I still wouldn’t call it a choice. Even to this day the positions that I currently hold are not choices. There are some things that I am unsure about, but anything that I would call a belief is not a choice at all. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that pretend to be religious, but I wouldn’t call those legitimate spiritual beliefs. If somone truely Beleives reguardless of the subconscious reasons why, it’s still not a choice. 

We choose to take the straight and narrow road, rocky, lonely and difficult though it might be, because we believe it's the right one. When we sin--and everyone does--it's because we chose to stray off the road--it didn't just happen. You are in no position to judge whose beliefs are real and whose are not. Judge not lest you would be judged, as well and with the same measure. In my experience. people who loudly proclaim their piety are often anything but. To turn left or right, to do good or ill are always choices. We aren't saved by Faith, We are saved by God's grace and his grace only, not by anything we do ourselves.

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lightly

Forgive me for veering off topic, somewhat,...this talk about prayer has me thinking .   If God listens to prayer...I have a feeling God prefers a Thankyou Lord.....over begging.    'and when you pray..Believe you receive' .

I have long wondered about words having Power.    Obviously people worldwide have always believed so...it is in our nature. People everywhere have always believed words have power.  AlaKazam!    There is of course prayer, and chanting, but also curses, spells, jinxes, magic..and on and on.     

it's fascinating that the Bible begins with the words..(quoting from memory,so forgive any errors). ...'In the beginning was the WORD..and the word was with God ,and the word was God'.   Light was created by the word of God. As was all else...and then,as the story goes, later the WORD became flesh (in the form of Jesus). The living Word.    Hammerclaw mentioned mountain moving... The word says that 'if you had faith as that of a mustard seed ..you could SAY to that mountain... 'Be thou removed and thrown into the sea'.....it wasn't the faith that moved the mountain...it was the Word !  The  bible miracles were caused by the word... Jesus Said to the dead girl.  "Rise"   To the leper.."be Healed".. To the lame man "Walk" ...to the blind man "See"...and so on.   It was the Word which accomplished the miracle of faith.

  A  thought (although initiated by physical process) becomes truely Physical when put into Words!   It becomes sound which is Physical vibration ...     Physical vibration (movement) is what causes change in the physical realm?    Anyway...just something to think about...     Sorry for veering somewhat off topic Hammerclaw..it was important to me to share this idea. :)

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White Crane Feather
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

We choose to take the straight and narrow road, rocky, lonely and difficult though it might be, because we believe it's the right one. When we sin--and everyone does--it's because we chose to stray off the road--it didn't just happen. You are in no position to judge whose beliefs are real and whose are not. Judge not lest you would be judged, as well and with the same measure. In my experience. people who loudly proclaim their piety are often anything but. To turn left or right, to do good or ill are always choices. We aren't saved by Faith, We are saved by God's grace and his grace only, not by anything we do ourselves.

I never said whoes beliefs are real or not. I was making a point that belief is not a choice. If you say you believe but you do not, then you are lying. Likewise if you do believe but say you don’t, you are also lying. No one can choose to believe in anything. They either do or they don’t. Of course we are not talking about those that are conflicted. I know people that really really really want to believe, but they just can’t. 

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White Crane Feather
37 minutes ago, lightly said:

Forgive me for veering off topic, somewhat,...this talk about prayer has me thinking .   If God listens to prayer...I have a feeling God prefers a Thankyou Lord.....over begging.    'and when you pray..Believe you receive' .

I have long wondered about words having Power.    Obviously people worldwide have always believed so...it is in our nature. People everywhere have always believed words have power.  AlaKazam!    There is of course prayer, and chanting, but also curses, spells, jinxes, magic..and on and on.     

it's fascinating that the Bible begins with the words..(quoting from memory,so forgive any errors). ...'In the beginning was the WORD..and the word was with God ,and the word was God'.   Light was created by the word of God. As was all else...and then,as the story goes, later the WORD became flesh (in the form of Jesus). The living Word.    Hammerclaw mentioned mountain moving... The word says that 'if you had faith as that of a mustard seed ..you could SAY to that mountain... 'Be thou removed and thrown into the sea'.....it wasn't the faith that moved the mountain...it was the Word !  The  bible miracles were caused by the word... Jesus Said to the dead girl.  "Rise"   To the leper.."be Healed".. To the lame man "Walk" ...to the blind man "See"...and so on.   It was the Word which accomplished the miracle of faith.

  A  thought (although initiated by physical process) becomes truely Physical when put into Words!   It becomes sound which is Physical vibration ...     Physical vibration (movement) is what causes change in the physical realm?    Anyway...just something to think about...     Sorry for veering somewhat off topic Hammerclaw..it was important to me to share this idea. :)

If you think about what a word is. It’s actually quite amazing. When we speak we are manifesting something from deep in the mind to make it manifest in the physical to bring another mind into understanding. Higher intellegint communication is truely an incredible feat of nature. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, White Crane Feather said:

I never said whoes beliefs are real or not. I was making a point that belief is not a choice. If you say you believe but you do not, then you are lying. Likewise if you do believe but say you don’t, you are also lying. No one can choose to believe in anything. They either do or they don’t. Of course we are not talking about those that are conflicted. I know people that really really really want to believe, but they just can’t. 

Honey, I can choose to believe you or not to believe you--or anything else. It's nothing but vanity to think there's something mystical about one's own belief in deity. Belief, according to the Bible, is nothing without God's Grace.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Xeno-Fish
1 hour ago, White Crane Feather said:

I never said whoes beliefs are real or not. I was making a point that belief is not a choice. If you say you believe but you do not, then you are lying. Likewise if you do believe but say you don’t, you are also lying. No one can choose to believe in anything. They either do or they don’t. Of course we are not talking about those that are conflicted. I know people that really really really want to believe, but they just can’t. 

http://www.skilledatlife.com/how-beliefs-are-formed-and-how-to-change-them/

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Xeno-Fish

Biochemistry of Belief

What actually is a belief

Everyone has a reality-tunnel. Those beliefs we hold true, which shape our perception of the world around us. It's the way we filter the world around us. Choosing which information we consciously perceive.

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Nice tap dance on the head of a pin.:clap:

Sorry, but i don't get what you are inferring by this.

What I've written is completely true 

if  you  find difficulty believing it, that's understandable, if you don't have similar experiences, or haven't yet realised the difference between the physical condition we call pain, and the mental condition we call suffering 

 They aren't the same thing a t all 

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Mr Walker
18 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

All your deficiencies are directly attributable to genetics, Mr. Walker--and you admit you can't carry a tune.  The young women were the  victim of hormones, coursing through their young veins; nothing more.

Untrue (at least in my experience) 

I taught myself how to sing in tune  even though i am tone deaf clinically.

I simply modulated my voice to either  the musical notes available,    or to match the voices of those around me.  My mind then learned to repeat a song etc accurately from memory 

It is true that genes can influence our abilities, and definitely construct our physical characteristics, but we can overcome, compensate for, or find ways around  such genetic predispositions. We don't have to accept them or live with them.

(The following is based on a radio interview and i won't vouch for the exact details, but basically)   There was a professor studying psychopaths and he found tha t there are genes common to psychopaths  He had himself tested and found that the had the same genetic structure. He recognised that he had some of the traits of a psychopath but, in his words, perhaps because of a lucky upbringing they had never manifested Ie he had chosen not to act on, or even recognise in himself, that genetic predisposition

As to the young women.

  Maybe it was hormones.  although, especially back then, young women made choices far less based on their hormones than young men did .

Before  oral contraception a woman couldn't afford to let her hormones control her behaviours The introduction of reliable oral contraception (and free, legal, abortions in many countries )  made perhaps the biggest difference in women's attitudes ever occurring in history, and was the basis for the revolutions which liberated  women and gave them (at least the opportunity for)  sexual  and cultural equality   

Maybe they  read too much romantic fiction.

Maybe the y realised I was a kind, generous, young man.

Maybe (as some of their mothers certainly realised ) they could see that i was was going to have a good reliable job, and would be a good catch :) 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

You are simply delusional. I have zero interest in further discussion with you. 

One of us is delusional.

I am certified sane. How about you? :) 

Dont assume that people with life experiences different to (or more diverse than)   your own, are either lying or delusional  

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I never said whoes beliefs are real or not. I was making a point that belief is not a choice. If you say you believe but you do not, then you are lying. Likewise if you do believe but say you don’t, you are also lying. No one can choose to believe in anything. They either do or they don’t. Of course we are not talking about those that are conflicted. I know people that really really really want to believe, but they just can’t. 

In my exerince (which may be different  to others I only ever construct beliefs which i know will be beneficial to me or others 

 

I dont actually get how a person can "have a belief" which they didn't construct, or a t least maintain.  

Eg if a parent teaches a child any beliefs, the child always has a choice to accept or  reject those beliefs, depending on how THEY see the world, as separate from how their parents see the world 

The y will have to maintain the belief construct of their parents or it will fade away.  

I guess there are many degrees of belief.

At the lowest end, people say they have beliefs but don't really hold them.  IE they think they are believing something like a religious belief, but in reality the y are not.

This may only become apparent when the claimed belief is tested by circumstances  

At the highest end, the belief is so absolute that the person thinks they KNOW something to be true, but have no personal evidences that it is  

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Mr Walker
9 hours ago, White Crane Feather said:

I never felt that it was a choice. Even back in my teenage years, when I was a Christian, I didn’t chose to believe. I just did. I realize now that it was an artifact of wanting be a good person, but I still wouldn’t call it a choice. Even to this day the positions that I currently hold are not choices. There are some things that I am unsure about, but anything that I would call a belief is not a choice at all. I’m sure there are plenty of people out there that pretend to be religious, but I wouldn’t call those legitimate spiritual beliefs. If somone truely Beleives reguardless of the subconscious reasons why, it’s still not a choice. 

Again personally i cant understand this  although I accept  totally  that it is true for you  

Every value belief etc i hold is a conscious construct and has been since childhood 

Of course lack of knowledge/experience as a child  and belief in my parents shaped my early beliefs.

But i knew from  a few  years old how my mind was working, and how to chose a belief or value and how to discard one  So i evolved values principles and a few beliefs which were constructive and beneficial both for me but also for those around me Eg Never do violence (physical or verbal)  to an innocent but strike fast and fast when threatened and with no way to avoid conflict  :)  Both those values/beliefs were based on the underlying one of avoiding hurt /pain, both to myself and to others. 

The closest i can come to your pov is that, as child, I knew my parent's beliefs and values.

I chose to accept them at the time, because they worked in every way to benefit us and keep us well, happy and "prosperous" 

But i knew they weren't MY values and beliefs.

I evolved/chose those, through childhood and early adult hood 

Often they  were similar to my parents, but sometimes very different, as i lived a different life to them, and had difernt needs and  problems/opportunities 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

We choose to take the straight and narrow road, rocky, lonely and difficult though it might be, because we believe it's the right one. When we sin--and everyone does--it's because we chose to stray off the road--it didn't just happen. You are in no position to judge whose beliefs are real and whose are not. Judge not lest you would be judged, as well and with the same measure. In my experience. people who loudly proclaim their piety are often anything but. To turn left or right, to do good or ill are always choices. We aren't saved by Faith, We are saved by God's grace and his grace only, not by anything we do ourselves.

Interesting.

I agree with so much of this and disagree strongly with  some bits 

 

I wasn't raised religious and i think Catholics have a unique perspective on salvation

The way i read the bible and understand it,    faith without works wont save because true faith will RESULT in works ie true faith will cause us to choose thoughts and behaviours which accord with what we see to be god's will.

  But works, no matter how good, without faith/ belief wont save either  because "whosoever believeth in me shall not die but have everlasting life " 

Likewise forgiveness requires more than asking and receiving forgiveness.  It requires physical  restitution,  or making right the consequences of your sin

And indeed we have choices and its ONLY because we have choices tha t we can be judged and held responsible for our thoughts and actions. 

 You cant judge a being  who can't make free willed choices.

There is nothing to forgive, in the thoughts or actions of a being who has no choice what to think, or how to behave.

In my understanding of the bible  we are ALL already saved from  original sin by christ's sacrifice Washed in his blood and invested in new unblemished clothing .

BUT we can blow this  by individually choosing to sin, and not seeking  forgiveness for our individual sins.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry, but i don't get what you are inferring by this.

What I've written is completely true 

if  you  find difficulty believing it, that's understandable, if you don't have similar experiences, or haven't yet realised the difference between the physical condition we call pain, and the mental condition we call suffering 

 They aren't the same thing a t all 

What you write, my friend, is your usual, self indulgent, patronizing BS--but that's OK. No one expects more of you.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Untrue (at least in my experience) 

I taught myself how to sing in tune  even though i am tone deaf clinically.

I simply modulated my voice to either  the musical notes available,    or to match the voices of those around me.  My mind then learned to repeat a song etc accurately from memory 

It is true that genes can influence our abilities, and definitely construct our physical characteristics, but we can overcome, compensate for, or find ways around  such genetic predispositions. We don't have to accept them or live with them.

(The following is based on a radio interview and i won't vouch for the exact details, but basically)   There was a professor studying psychopaths and he found tha t there are genes common to psychopaths  He had himself tested and found that the had the same genetic structure. He recognised that he had some of the traits of a psychopath but, in his words, perhaps because of a lucky upbringing they had never manifested Ie he had chosen not to act on, or even recognise in himself, that genetic predisposition

As to the young women.

  Maybe it was hormones.  although, especially back then, young women made choices far less based on their hormones than young men did .

Before  oral contraception a woman couldn't afford to let her hormones control her behaviours The introduction of reliable oral contraception (and free, legal, abortions in many countries )  made perhaps the biggest difference in women's attitudes ever occurring in history, and was the basis for the revolutions which liberated  women and gave them (at least the opportunity for)  sexual  and cultural equality   

Maybe they  read too much romantic fiction.

Maybe the y realised I was a kind, generous, young man.

Maybe (as some of their mothers certainly realised ) they could see that i was was going to have a good reliable job, and would be a good catch :) 

Maybe you've been delusional for years. I swear, Mr. Walker, If a woman here, started a thread about choosing tampons, you'd jump in, pompously, with expert advice.:rofl:

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Hammerclaw
40 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Interesting.

I agree with so much of this and disagree strongly with  some bits 

 

I wasn't raised religious and i think Catholics have a unique perspective on salvation

The way i read the bible and understand it,    faith without works wont save because true faith will RESULT in works ie true faith will cause us to choose thoughts and behaviours which accord with what we see to be god's will.

  But works, no matter how good, without faith/ belief wont save either  because "whosoever believeth in me shall not die but have everlasting life " 

Likewise forgiveness requires more than asking and receiving forgiveness.  It requires physical  restitution,  or making right the consequences of your sin

And indeed we have choices and its ONLY because we have choices tha t we can be judged and held responsible for our thoughts and actions. 

 You cant judge a being  who can't make free willed choices.

There is nothing to forgive, in the thoughts or actions of a being who has no choice what to think, or how to behave.

In my understanding of the bible  we are ALL already saved from  original sin by christ's sacrifice Washed in his blood and invested in new unblemished clothing .

BUT we can blow this  by individually choosing to sin, and not seeking  forgiveness for our individual sins.  

If one buys into the Judeo-Christian Mythos completely. As I've said, I don't believe in damnation, judgement or hell, or that kind of God. One good look at the universe tells me there's no such deity so petty,  save for one created by man in his own image. 

 

 

 

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Hammerclaw
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Biochemistry of Belief

What actually is a belief

Everyone has a reality-tunnel. Those beliefs we hold true, which shape our perception of the world around us. It's the way we filter the world around us. Choosing which information we consciously perceive.

A lot of people have a reality bunker, too. Nothing outside it's walls, no matter how pertinent and substantial, is real.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Nuclear Wessel
29 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Maybe you've been delusional for years. I swear, Mr. Walker, If a woman here, started a thread about choosing tampons, you'd jump in, pompously, with expert advice.:rofl:

"Expert".

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White Crane Feather
8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Honey, I can choose to believe you or not to believe you--or anything else. It's nothing but vanity to think there's something mystical about one's own belief in deity. Belief, according to the Bible, is nothing without God's Grace.

I bet you can’t. You can choose to take action contrary to what you really believe about something, but in terms of whether you believe in something or not you will be victim to your internal biases and how you process information. I think it’s entirely possible to recognize that beliefs may be wrong and use metacognitiin so that belief in something can be fluid based on new information, but ultimately it is the new information and your process that determine the belief. You never actually made the choice. Ultimately even your (not you in particular... all of us) faith in new information is something that you were not in control of and therefore is not a choice. Acceptance isn’t the same thing as a choice. There are people that suffer from internal conflict when they know something Isn’t true or is true and yet they continue to choose to take action to hang on to their cognitive investment, but what they actually believe still isn’t a choice. I imagine everyone has a bit of a threshold for when their personal cognitive investments are overcome by new information, and I do think those thresholds can change for various reasons, but a simple choice? I will have to disagree with you on that. Just as a self observation, I don’t think I would be capable, and I don’t think anyone else is either, of actually changing the beliefs that I have at will. I could certainly seek more information and see how that may modify my beliefs, so maybe in that sense it’s a choice to refine ones beliefs, but they simply can’t change at will. 
 

I can prove it to you. Simply make a choice to beleive something contrary to what you do now. I bet you can’t do it. Of course there is no way for you to prove to me that you actuclaly changed your belief, but I wouldn’t believe you any way :devil 

Edited by White Crane Feather

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third_eye
1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

"Expert".

"Qualified Authority"

~

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Nuclear Wessel
1 minute ago, third_eye said:

"Qualified Authority"

~

Yep, those certificates were straight out of a cereal box.

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

A lot of people have a reality bunker, too. Nothing outside it's walls, no matter how pertinent and substantial, is real.

Exactly, there are those that think their mental states are reality and they tend them as if they are. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, White Crane Feather said:

I bet you can’t. You can choose to take action contrary to what you really believe about something, but in terms of whether you believe in something or not you will be victim to your internal biases and how you process information. I think it’s entirely possible to recognize that beliefs may be wrong and use metacognitiin so that belief in something can be fluid based on new information, but ultimately it is the new information and your process that determine the belief. You never actually made the choice. Ultimately even your (not you in particular... all of us) faith in new information is something that you were not in control of and therefore is not a choice. Acceptance isn’t the same thing as a choice. There are people that suffer from internal conflict when they know something Isn’t true or is true and yet they continue to choose to take action to hang on to their cognitive investment, but what they actually believe still isn’t a choice. I imagine everyone has a bit of a threshold for when their personal cognitive investments are overcome by new information, and I do think those thresholds can change for various reasons, but a simple choice? I will have to disagree with you on that. Just as a self observation, I don’t think I would be capable, and I don’t think anyone else is either, of actually changing the beliefs that I have at will. I could certainly seek more information and see how that may modify my beliefs, so maybe in that sense it’s a choice to refine ones beliefs, but they simply can’t change at will. 
 

I can prove it to you. Simply make a choice to beleive something contrary to what you do now. I bet you can’t do it. Of course there is no way for you to prove to me that you actuclaly changed your belief, but I wouldn’t believe you any way :devil 

You're welcome here and you may express any thought or belief you want to here. In turn, everyone else is free to comment on your posts. If you find that distasteful, all I can say is--if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. We each walk different paths, each in our own way, but don't be surprised if they all lead to the same destination.

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