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Orestes_3113

Astrotheology

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Kenemet
12 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

No they aren't but I am not saying astrology. Forum members are. They continually confuse the two. Saying that I am speaking astrology when I am not.

You are indeed using astrology and not astronomy.

You characterize planets as "male" and "female."  That is astrology.

Astronomers characterize planets as "rocky" and "gaseous."  Since they have no genitalia it is not possible to categorize them as male or female and therefore you are using astrology and not astronomy.

You focus on constellations.  Astrologers do that.

Astronomers focus on the entire sky and only use constellations when talking to the public (because the public doesn't easily connect with declination and right ascension and brightness and spectrum.

You are using astrology. 

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Orestes_3113
14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You characterize planets as "male" and "female."  That is astrology.

It is a conceptual frame. It is not astrology as in... for the purpose of divination, forecasting and the like. It is more like grammar.

Not astrology.

14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Astronomers characterize planets as "rocky" and "gaseous."  Since they have no genitalia it is not possible to categorize them as male or female and therefore you are using astrology and not astronomy.

Agreed. False dichotomy.

14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You focus on constellations.  Astrologers do that.

True, language is the same. But the goal is not.

14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Astronomers focus on the entire sky and only use constellations when talking to the public (because the public doesn't easily connect with declination and right ascension and brightness and spectrum.

Exactly. This is why astrological terms are easy to use. Using these terms does not mean divination or forecasting. Again not astrology.

14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You are using astrology.

No

Edited by Orestes_3113

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jmccr8
15 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

It is a conceptual frame. It is not astrology as in... for the purpose of divination, forecasting and the like. It is more like grammar.

Not astrology.

Agreed. False dichotomy.

True, language is the same. But the goal is not.

Exactly. This is why astrological terms are easy to use. Using these terms does not mean divination or forecasting. Again not astrology.

No

Hi Orestes

You have created a psuedo-science and are tying to explain it in psuedo-English and have failed on both counts. What you have succeeded at is finding something that is important to you for you within your perceptions.

jmccr8

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Kenemet
3 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

It is a conceptual frame. It is not astrology as in... for the purpose of divination, forecasting and the like. It is more like grammar.

Astrology doesn't have to be for divination.,  It's also for life stories and personality.  There are several branches of it, including historical astrology, medical astrology, etc, etc.

You are doing astrology.

Quote

True, language is the same. But the goal is not.

Nope.  This is astrology.  I can say this with confidence.  I was a professional astrologer (as folks here well know) as well as a professional palm and tarot card reader.

Quote

Exactly. This is why astrological terms are easy to use. Using these terms does not mean divination or forecasting. Again not astrology.

You appear to know very little about astrology.

There is nothing astronomically interesting or significant about an eclipse in or around any sign or any star.  Eclipses are studied by astronomers to find lunar acceleration, to study Earth's atmosphere, and to study solar coronas,  (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/The_science_of_eclipses)  Eclipses showed the shape of the moon, and the velocity of solar winds.  Eclipses and stars do not show stories.

You are doing astrology.  Astrology shows stories.  Here's a quote from an astrology website:  "In Astrology, solar and lunar eclipses signal major change in the sign that they are in."  https://www.lilithastrology.com/post/2020-2021-eclipse-dates#:~:text=In Astrology%2C solar and lunar eclipses signal major,same sign as your sun%2C moon%2C and rising.  You know; like death and Pisces.

 

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Orestes_3113
8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Orestes

You have created a psuedo-science and are tying to explain it in psuedo-English and have failed on both counts. What you have succeeded at is finding something that is important to you for you within your perceptions.

jmccr8

Yay something new. Still not astrology though you must agree, right?

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Astrology doesn't have to be for divination.,  It's also for life stories and personality.  There are several branches of it, including historical astrology, medical astrology, etc, etc.

You are doing astrology.

Those are all mundane matters. I am dealing with abstracts. I am not doing astrology.

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Nope.  This is astrology.  I can say this with confidence.  I was a professional astrologer (as folks here well know) as well as a professional palm and tarot card reader.

Then you should know that this is not astrology. Astrology tries to tell us something about the world. Not astrology.

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

You appear to know very little about astrology.

There is nothing astronomically interesting or significant about an eclipse in or around any sign or any star.  Eclipses are studied by astronomers to find lunar acceleration, to study Earth's atmosphere, and to study solar coronas,  (http://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/The_science_of_eclipses)  Eclipses showed the shape of the moon, and the velocity of solar winds.  Eclipses and stars do not show stories.

You are doing astrology.  Astrology shows stories.  Here's a quote from an astrology website:  "In Astrology, solar and lunar eclipses signal major change in the sign that they are in."  https://www.lilithastrology.com/post/2020-2021-eclipse-dates#:~:text=In Astrology%2C solar and lunar eclipses signal major,same sign as your sun%2C moon%2C and rising.  You know; like death and Pisces.

I agree, not astronomy. Although eclipses are interesting if you are tracking time, good for scribes.

You are mixing up reality and myth. For me eclipses do NOT signal a major change. Or real deaths like when occuring in Pisces. The occurence only gives an opportunity to structure a story that way and that story does not have to reflect an individual's life (it could be made up). See the difference?

Astrology claims to influence the world. Astrotheology does not!

Not astrology!

 

Example story.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster was born in Virgo and died in Pisces. The end.

How is this astrology? How would this story benefit your clients? How could your clients integrate this into their lives?

Also... if you would imply a likelyhood that the client could die in Pisces or that he could have a child in Virgo. Then it is you who would do the astrology. The text itself does not reflect this. The text does not go beyond the story, it is confined.

And imo from a Biblical point of view this is a reason why astrology is deemed sinful but observing signs is not. Astrology tries to read into things that simply are not there, it takes an additional subjective step that cannot be justified.

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Wepwawet
16 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

How is this astrology? How would this story benefit your clients? How could your clients integrate this into their lives?

Why then does Ted Peters in his paper here  Astrotheology differentiate between astrotheology applied to current times and it's application to ancient times, which as can be seen in the quote from his paper below, "is tied to astrology". Are you a schismatic in the muddy field of astrotheology, a heretic even.

Quote

This academic use of the term astrotheology is not the only one in contemporary parlance. The term also stimulates considerable excitement in the occult, among neo-pagans and New Age enthusiasts. For many astrotheology is tied to astrology, especially ancient astrology. Allegedly, looking to the skies inspired our ancestors to worship the impressive phenomena of nature, especially the stars and the planets. Today’s astrotheologians of this brand study ancient myths and petroglyphs to recover lost wisdom, wisdom allegedly suppressed by organized religions such as Christianity. Since pagan astrology preceded Christianity, and because Christianity incorporated the very astrotheology it rejected, Christianity is de facto a form of paganism. “The knowledge about astrotheology would reveal the Christians’ own religion to be Pagan in virtually every significant aspect, constituting a remake of the ancient religion.”3 Ancient astrology, according to this school of thought, is the basis and origin for all of our myths, legends, fairy tales, nursery rhymes, folklore, and holy scriptures. An undisguised anti-establishment tone accompanies this version of astrotheology, a tone common to the new religious movements of the late 19th and 20th centuries.

 

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Orestes_3113
43 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

This academic use of the term astrotheology is not the only one in contemporary parlance. The term also stimulates considerable excitement in the occult, among neo-pagans and New Age enthusiasts. For many astrotheology is tied to astrology, especially ancient astrology. Allegedly, looking to the skies inspired our ancestors to worship the impressive phenomena of nature, especially the stars and the planets. Today’s astrotheologians of this brand study ancient myths and petroglyphs to recover lost wisdom, wisdom allegedly suppressed by organized religions such as Christianity. Since pagan astrology preceded Christianity, and because Christianity incorporated the very astrotheology it rejected, Christianity is de facto a form of paganism. “The knowledge about astrotheology would reveal the Christians’ own religion to be Pagan in virtually every significant aspect, constituting a remake of the ancient religion.”3 Ancient astrology, according to this school of thought, is the basis and origin for all of our myths, legends, fairy tales, nursery rhymes, folklore, and holy scriptures. An undisguised anti-establishment tone accompanies this version of astrotheology, a tone common to the new religious movements of the late 19th and 20th centuries.

For many it does not

That what is bold i agree with.

That which I have underscored needs nuance. Ancient astrology could indeed be the basis or it could have been ancient astronomy or astrolatry. Once it became incorporated into myth it lost the quality of its origin. No longer astrology, astrolatry or astronomy but now having become astrotheology.

From that same link:

Quote

Within the contemporary field of Religion and Science, however, astrotheologians look quite different. They attend to astronomy, not astrology. Just as astrobiology replaced exobiology for space scientists in the late 1990s, so also today’s use of astrotheology replaces the earlier term, exotheology.4 Like exotheology, astrotheology incorporates scientific knowledge into a critical and constructive theology of nature. This leads to three ways in which the academic use of the term differs from the astrological use. First, for the academic astrotheologian, knowledge of the skies is not esoteric. Rather, it is scientific. In principle, scientific knowledge is open and available to all. Second, astrotheological knowledge derives from astronomy and related sciences, which replaced astrology and rendered astrology a pre-modern form of pseudo-knowledge. Modern science requires empirical data carefully calculated and assessed by scientific theories. Third, the academic astrotheologian works from within the circle of Christian theological discourse, not within pre-Christian pagan circles.

Interestingly this contemporary branch is looking for effects of the stars on the physical that I claim to deny. And I do deny them from the scope/context that I am examining myths alongside the stars. I must say I am agnostic to the greater processes that could be fundamental to say astrobiology etc.

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Wepwawet
20 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

For many it does not

That what is bold i agree with.

That which I have underscored needs nuance. Ancient astrology could indeed be the basis or it could have been ancient astronomy or astrolatry. Once it became incorporated into myth it lost the quality of its origin. No longer astrology, astrolatry or astronomy but now having become astrotheology.

That's dancing on the head of a pin somewhat to defend your position of being a schismatic in the overall field of astrotheology, in fact being on the fringe of this field, which itself, IMO, is out there on the fringe anyway. I'll make another quote from Peters, with my bold.

Quote

Within the contemporary field of Religion and Science, however, astrotheologians look quite different. They attend to astronomy, not astrology. Just as astrobiology replaced exobiology for space scientists in the late 1990s, so also today’s use of astrotheology replaces the earlier term, exotheology.4 Like exotheology, astrotheology incorporates scientific knowledge into a critical and constructive theology of nature. This leads to three ways in which the academic use of the term differs from the astrological use. First, for the academic astrotheologian, knowledge of the skies is not esoteric. Rather, it is scientific. In principle, scientific knowledge is open and available to all. Second, astrotheological knowledge derives from astronomy and related sciences, which replaced astrology and rendered astrology a pre-modern form of pseudo-knowledge. Modern science requires empirical data carefully calculated and assessed by scientific theories. Third, the academic astrotheologian works from within the circle of Christian theological discourse, not within pre-Christian pagan circles.

Working "within pre-Christian pagan circles" is entirely what you are doing. That's not a problem of course as you can study whatever you want, but your area is clearly not mainstream astrotheology, and is tied in with astrology. You need to come up with another name for your ology as pre and post Christian versions are at a consubstantiation moment.

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Orestes_3113
56 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

That's dancing on the head of a pin somewhat to defend your position of being a schismatic in the overall field of astrotheology, in fact being on the fringe of this field, which itself, IMO, is out there on the fringe anyway.

I can understand how you perceive that, however think of the transition of a caterpillar into a butterfly:

caterpillar (ancient astrology/astrolatry/astronomy) -> cocoon (myth) -> butterfly (astrotheology)

I would ask you is a butterfly a caterpillar? Is then astrotheology the same as astrology?

56 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Working "within pre-Christian pagan circles" is entirely what you are doing. That's not a problem of course as you can study whatever you want, but your area is clearly not mainstream astrotheology, and is tied in with astrology. You need to come up with another name for your ology as pre and post Christian versions are at a consubstantiation moment.

I am working with pre-Christian pagan circles as I see no real difference. To have confined the discussion to Christianity to me is an arbitrary decision. I am not the authority to lay claim on terms, and I doubt Peters is, I simply see that the same holds true pre Christianity. 

Tied to astrology... well it is astro-theo-logy so it even has it in the name and that is ok. The point of this argument was however if there was anything supernatural like forecasting or divination which would render the subject as bunk on the outset. Clearly I am not trying to find meaning in a spiritual realm, I am merely trying to understand/explain the logic behind certain myths which seem to be connected to observances (hence astronomy). Any suggestion for a cool ology alternative? I myself think astro-theo-logy fits, the main bulk of my research is OT based.

NT also does not carry the same kind of chronology to be suitable for my schismatic views. Sticking to the NT to me is like fetching water from a dry well.

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Orestes_3113

Some interesting things surrounding Senenmut advisor to Hatshepsut. Hatshepsut was of divine birth:

Quote

Ahmose features prominently in the divine conception scenes. Hatshepsut had scenes created showing how the god Amun approached her mother, Ahmose, and how she (Hatshepsut) was of divine birth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_(queen)

Quite a familiar story.

 

It gets better... during the 18th dynasty the Theban Triad was favored...

Quote

The group consisted of Amun, his consort Mut and their son Khonsu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theban_Triad

 

Where Amun is the divine father, Mut the mother and Khonsu the son, as it says... and so the image feels very familiar.

3edd3ce1cd04d7fef36b7464cf6cf3ac.jpg

This form of a triad is seen over and over again. Variations exists, one is not the same as another but it seems that characteristics bled through across cultures.

Quote

Khonsu (Ancient Egyptian: ḫnsw; also transliterated Chonsu, Khensu, Khons, Chons or Khonshu) is the ancient Egyptian god of the Moon. His name means "traveller", and this may relate to the perceived nightly travel of the Moon across the sky. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khonsu

 

And so while in Christianity focus lies with Christ the Sun, here the son is actually the Moon. Who is seen as a traveler in all directions of course to me this serves as a supporting argument for Senenmut's astronomical ceiling being Lunar based as explained in my earlier post.

To speculate further Senenmut might belong to the previous Hyksos tradition that might have been influenced (or have been an offshoot) of this same tradition. This would make sense as the Bible and Babylon are joined at the hip, it is the story of Tammuz in one form or another. My question here is this. Is it common for Egyptians to claim a virgin birth like Hatshepsut did?

If not then in that case Hatshepsut could have been seen as a heretic... She and Senenmut at least received such treatment:

Quote

After her death, many of Hatshepsut's monuments and depictions were subsequently defaced or destroyed, including those in her famous mortuary temple complex at Deir el-Bahri. Traditionally, these have been interpreted by early modern scholars to be evidence of acts of damnatio memoriae (condemning a person by erasure from recorded existence) by Thutmose III. However, recent research by scholars such as Charles Nims and Peter Dorman, has re-examined these erasures and found that the acts of erasure which could be dated, only began sometime during year forty-six or forty-seven of Thutmose's reign (c. 1433/2 BCE).[58] Another often overlooked fact is that Hatshepsut was not the only one who received this treatment. The monuments of her chief steward Senenmut, who was closely associated with her rule, were similarly defaced where they were found.[59] All of this evidence casts serious doubt upon the popular theory that Thutmose III ordered the destruction in a fit of vengeful rage shortly after his accession.

https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III

 

A bit about the 18th Dynasty...

Quote

Dynasty XVIII was founded by Ahmose I, the brother or son of Kamose, the last ruler of the 17th Dynasty. Ahmose finished the campaign to expel the Hyksos rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Dynasty_of_Egypt

And so it pretty much directly followed the Hyksos rulers and could pretty much have maintained/adopted a continued focus on the Moon. Here I presume that the Hyksos story is intertwined with the Biblical narrative and that they themselves are Moon observers (can't have eclipses without both a Sun and a Moon).

The 18th dynasty: 

Quote

This dynasty is also known as the Thutmosid Dynasty for the four pharaohs named Thutmose.

Thut -> Thoth -> Moon god. Perhaps a bit over simplified for you guys but I go on bread crumbs.

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Kenemet
8 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Yay something new. Still not astrology though you must agree, right?

As a former astrologer, no, I don't agree.

Quote

You are mixing up reality and myth. For me eclipses do NOT signal a major change.

And yet you tie all your big events to eclipses (whether or not they match date ranges.) For example (a direct quote from you) ""Death of Akhenaten" As before with this method. Pisces is the House of Undoing, meaning death."

Bolding and underlining is mine.

There is no "house of undoing" in astronomy.

That's astrology.

Another quote of yours: "Akhenaten has morphed attributes of Virgo over his position as Saturn"

"Attributes of Virgo" - that's astrology.  Not astronomy.  

Quote

The Flying Spaghetti Monster was born in Virgo and died in Pisces. The end.

How is this astrology? How would this story benefit your clients? How could your clients integrate this into their lives?

Also... if you would imply a likelyhood that the client could die in Pisces or that he could have a child in Virgo. Then it is you who would do the astrology. The text itself does not reflect this. The text does not go beyond the story, it is confined.

Your example is, indeed, astrology, though it is the lame sort of "sun sign astrology" that gets written for newspaper horoscopes and not anything that a professional would hand to a client.

Your playing with the stories of various things that you've cherry picked and rearranged to suit your idea simply doesn't work.  Your use of poorly chosen materials, coupled with a lack of understanding of the actual symbols in these pieces (ignoring the hieroglyphs) destroys your credibility.

Quote

And imo from a Biblical point of view this is a reason why astrology is deemed sinful but observing signs is not. Astrology tries to read into things that simply are not there, it takes an additional subjective step that cannot be justified.

But what you're doing really is astrology.  You're using signs as markers of location in the sky,  using sign and planetary attributes for your narrative, and tying events back to these signs and markers (as is done with what's called "historical astrology."

Historical archaeologists look at significant dates and events and tie them to things that are happening in the life of an individual or global happenings... as you've just done.

You're doing astrology ... somewhat badly but it's astrology.

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Hanslune

Glad/sad to see this debate has cycled back to 'cherry picking'...again! The problem with cherry picking is that the person doing it is ultimately utterly amazed at how their idea is so well supported by the evidence...lol

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Kenemet
5 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Some interesting things surrounding Senenmut advisor to Hatshepsut. Hatshepsut was of divine birth:

Oy.

Well, first, that's not about Senemut.  You get onto Hatshepsut... and start skimming the surface of a well-known and well-studied ruler.  The "divine birth" is a common theme among rulers in the Levant of that time period that legitimizes their claim to the throne.

Quote

gets better... during the 18th dynasty the Theban Triad was favored...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theban_Triad

Where Amun is the divine father, Mut the mother and Khonsu the son, as it says... and so the image feels very familiar.

3edd3ce1cd04d7fef36b7464cf6cf3ac.jpg

This form of a triad is seen over and over again. Variations exists, one is not the same as another but it seems that characteristics bled through across cultures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khonsu

Triads (parents + child) were very common in Egyptian religion.  All the major cities had some sort of ruling triad (the child was sometimes male and sometimes female) - districts also had triads.  One of the creation stories has a single (male) parent and two offspring.  And in some cases the pharaoh is inserted as the child in the triad.

Art in Egypt was focused on the family... unlike many other cultures.

Quote

And so while in Christianity focus lies with Christ the Sun, here the son is actually the Moon. Who is seen as a traveler in all directions of course to me this serves as a supporting argument for Senenmut's astronomical ceiling being Lunar based as explained in my earlier post.

The "child" in these triads may be a solar deity (Isis-Osiris-Horus) or a male deity of beauty (Ptah-Sekhmet-Nefertum), or any number of other deities and combinations.  These combinations also change and you see the parent of one triad become a child in a later triad.

And Senemut's astronomical ceiling is not (as you state) "lunar based."  

Quote

To speculate further Senenmut might belong to the previous Hyksos tradition that might have been influenced (or have been an offshoot) of this same tradition.

Say what?

The Hyksos practiced horse burials and worshiped Canaanite storm god Baal-zephon.  They adopted Egyptian practices; not the other way around. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos#Religion

Senemut was an intellectual genius from the southern end of Egypt, who rose from an obscure family of commoners to a high position through his character and talents.  He has nothing to do with the Hyksos, who were prominent only in the northeastern areas and who were driven out over 100 years before Senemut was born.

Quote

This would make sense as the Bible and Babylon are joined at the hip, it is the story of Tammuz in one form or another. My question here is this. Is it common for Egyptians to claim a virgin birth like Hatshepsut did?If not then in that case Hatshepsut could have been seen as a heretic... She and Senenmut at least received such treatment:

Neither Senemut nor Hatshepsut's stories resemble Tammuz.

Nor was Hatshepsut's birth a "virgin birth."  

Her mother was queen consort (which means she and the king had sex)  In fact, her mother bore at least one daughter before she had Hatshepsut -- her older sister Nefrubity.

Hatshepsut was not seen as a heretic.  The removal of her name was to legitimize the claim to the throne of Tutmose III's son.

Quote

And so it pretty much directly followed the Hyksos rulers and could pretty much have maintained/adopted a continued focus on the Moon. Here I presume that the Hyksos story is intertwined with the Biblical narrative and that they themselves are Moon observers (can't have eclipses without both a Sun and a Moon).

They didn't focus on the moon.  Their main deity was the god of storms.

Quote

Thut -> Thoth -> Moon god. Perhaps a bit over simplified for you guys but I go on bread crumbs.

What you have is not bread crumbs.  It's a word salad.

And yes, Tutmoses means "born of Thoth",  which was a very common name in ancient Egypt.  In the case of Thutmose iii (or Thutmose Neferkheperu, the name given to him by his parents), it's one of the five names of a pharaoh - four of which are names he hand picked for himself. 

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Orestes_3113
52 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

As a former astrologer, no, I don't agree.

Then explain how how planets influence reality in my line of reasoning...

53 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

And yet you tie all your big events to eclipses (whether or not they match date ranges.) For example (a direct quote from you) ""Death of Akhenaten" As before with this method. Pisces is the House of Undoing, meaning death."

Bolding and underlining is mine.

There is no "house of undoing" in astronomy.

That's astrology.

Another quote of yours: "Akhenaten has morphed attributes of Virgo over his position as Saturn"

"Attributes of Virgo" - that's astrology.  Not astronomy.  

The birth/death of the character of Akhenaten. Not to be confused with an actual physical birth/death.

Yes these terms are from astrology it is astrotheology. But it differs from the point of influence. I am simply explaining stories. Fiction. Not realities. Not astrology!

55 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Your example is, indeed, astrology, though it is the lame sort of "sun sign astrology" that gets written for newspaper horoscopes and not anything that a professional would hand to a client.

No it isn't as there is no real presence of an individual. With astrology there is an influence of planets on real entities.

57 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

But what you're doing really is astrology.  You're using signs as markers of location in the sky,  using sign and planetary attributes for your narrative, and tying events back to these signs and markers (as is done with what's called "historical astrology."

Historical archaeologists look at significant dates and events and tie them to things that are happening in the life of an individual or global happenings... as you've just done.

You're doing astrology ... somewhat badly but it's astrology.

See the difference. You are talking about things that actually happened. This is where I differ. I am NOT, again, I AM NOT, talking about things that actually happened.

 

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Orestes_3113
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Oy.

Well, first, that's not about Senemut.  You get onto Hatshepsut... and start skimming the surface of a well-known and well-studied ruler.  The "divine birth" is a common theme among rulers in the Levant of that time period that legitimizes their claim to the throne.

The point of course was to shoehorn some lunar understanding into Senenmut using Hatshepsut etc. So the divine birth is a common thing in the Levant sure but also for Egypt in particular? Hones question...

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Triads (parents + child) were very common in Egyptian religion.  All the major cities had some sort of ruling triad (the child was sometimes male and sometimes female) - districts also had triads.  One of the creation stories has a single (male) parent and two offspring.  And in some cases the pharaoh is inserted as the child in the triad.

Art in Egypt was focused on the family... unlike many other cultures.

Yes I understand. Still divine birth is what stood out for me as out of place.

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Say what?

The Hyksos practiced horse burials and worshiped Canaanite storm god Baal-zephon.  They adopted Egyptian practices; not the other way around. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos#Religion

Senemut was an intellectual genius from the southern end of Egypt, who rose from an obscure family of commoners to a high position through his character and talents.  He has nothing to do with the Hyksos, who were prominent only in the northeastern areas and who were driven out over 100 years before Senemut was born.

Yeah I get all that. Overall the timeline of the Hyksos matches the Biblical timeline in a way, of course this means nothing in itself but it is something to keep in mind when you approach things from a different angle.

Senemut being a genius I don't know I never met him. And a people can be driven out in bulk but still have small groups of people absorbed within a nation, basically there is not much to say. For me what stands out is that the timeline matches, Moses matches to Senenmut. Imo all the Bible is is ancient astronomy/astrolatry whatever you want to call it I don't care.

The Hyksos themselves are a big mystery for me.

What I simply point here is the emphasis on the Moon in this period, evidenced by the root name Thut/Thoth. And if the Hyksos have anything to do with the Biblical narrative, and if the Bible has its roots in astro* then it would be fitting to observe the Moon during the time of Senenmut.

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Neither Senemut nor Hatshepsut's stories resemble Tammuz.

Nor was Hatshepsut's birth a "virgin birth."  

Her mother was queen consort (which means she and the king had sex)  In fact, her mother bore at least one daughter before she had Hatshepsut -- her older sister Nefrubity.

Hatshepsut was not seen as a heretic.  The removal of her name was to legitimize the claim to the throne of Tutmose III's son.

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There is a myth on the birth of Hatshepsut. In this myth, Amun goes to Queen Ahmose in the form of the Pharaoh Thutmose I and awakens her with pleasant odors. At this point Amun places the ankh, a symbol of life, to Ahmose's nose, and Hatshepsut is conceived by Ahmose.

But it happened much later during his reign, I don't know that doesn't convince me.

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

They didn't focus on the moon.  Their main deity was the god of storms.

What does that even mean? "God of storms" and I don't mean literal storms but the symbolism behind it. What does it mean?

Jupiter is also seen as a storm god. If you take this literally then you are missing out. Now I am taking the position that their philosophy is one and the same. God of storms to me is a good fit.

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

What you have is not bread crumbs.  It's a word salad.

And yes, Tutmoses means "born of Thoth",  which was a very common name in ancient Egypt.  In the case of Thutmose iii (or Thutmose Neferkheperu, the name given to him by his parents), it's one of the five names of a pharaoh - four of which are names he hand picked for himself. 

Especially common during this time which was part of my point.

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Orestes_3113

@Kenemet

Astrology:

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the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.

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Astrology is a pseudoscience that claims to divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects.

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the divination of the supposed influences of the stars and planets on human affairs and terrestrial events by their positions and aspects

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Astrology, in its broadest sense, is the search for meaning in the sky. Early evidence for humans making conscious attempts to measure, record, and predict seasonal changes by reference to astronomical cycles, appears as markings on bones and cave walls, which show that lunar cycles were being noted as early as 25,000 years ago. This was a first step towards recording the Moon's influence upon tides and rivers, and towards organising a communal calendar.

All definitions on astrology all imply some kind of influence. I strongly denounce that.

If my claim does not rest on this influence, which is the critical part of it being likened to astrology, how then is what I speak of astrology.

The spaghetti monster example was to explain using a fiction that this influence is not there. In myth there is no bridge to reality. When the story of existing or previously existing person is narrated through myth then the story becomes something of its own. It seizes to be part of reality, and no longer falls under the sphere of influence as suggested by astrology.

You quote me on Akhenaten because I have put him forward. Yes but I did so through the context of myth, having no regards for historical facts.

So again explain to me how I am promoting this influence by my posts.

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Wepwawet
2 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

What I simply point here is the emphasis on the Moon in this period, evidenced by the root name Thut/Thoth. And if the Hyksos have anything to do with the Biblical narrative, and if the Bible has its roots in astro* then it would be fitting to observe the Moon during the time of Senenmut.

 

There is no "emphasis" on the Moon as the name Thutmose is not synonymous with their name for the Moon, Iah. If you wanted to name a person after the Moon you would not use Thoth, but Iah, for instance Nebkheperuiah, attested on several pieces of jewelry found in KV62. The question raised here is nothing to do with Senenmut, kings named Thutmose or a book that was still some 800 years away from it's first known beginnings, but why did Tutankhaten have two throne names, one after Ra and one after the Moon, and then ditch the Moon throne name on renaming himself to Tutankhamun, based on my own research.

While there may have been four kings named Thutmose, there were also four named Amunhotep, which somewhat dilutes your notion of the importance of the Moon. It's also the case that during the 18th Dynasty Ra, and then Aten, a manifestation of Ra, becomes more important. That Amunhotep III becomes a living manifestation of Khonsu is more to do with him identifying with the Theban triad than anything to do with the Moon per se.

Nebkheperuiah, for reference

 

Nebkheperuiah.jpg

Edited by Wepwawet
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Orestes_3113
1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

There is no "emphasis" on the Moon as the name Thutmose is not synonymous with their name for the Moon, Iah. If you wanted to name a person after the Moon you would not use Thoth, but Iah, for instance Nebkheperuriah, attested on several pieces of jewelry found in KV62. 

 

Why would a direct translation be necessary? Derivatives transfer value of the impied substance. To me it is inconceivable, given the naming amd context surrounding the Gods that they would not monitor. I can understand the problem of manifesting proofs, but lack of proof does not mean an impossibility. It simply means there is no material evidence for it.

"No visible support" ;)

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

The question raised here is nothing to do with Senenmut, kings named Thutmose or a book that was still some 800 years away from it's first known beginnings, but why did Tutankhaten have two throne names, one after Ra and one after the Moon, and then ditch the Moon throne name on renaming himself to Tutankhamun, based on my own research.

I am sorry I do not follow you.

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

While there may have been four kings named Thutmose, there were also four named Amunhotep, which somewhat dilutes your notion of the importance of the Moon. It's also the case that during the 18th Dynasty Ra, and then Aten, a manifestation of Ra, becomes more important.

Granted

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

That Amunhotep III becomes a living manifestation of Khonsu is more to do with him identifying with the Theban triad than anything to do with the Moon per se.

Ok.

What I also find interesting about the Theban triad, or better said the triad involving a miraculous conception is that it evolves into the concept of monotheism.

Polytheism allows for individualism for all while monotheism lays claim to authority with exclusive divinity on top.

In this sense monotheism is a social evolution towards an institutionalized powergrab which perhaps requires this triad. Like a function or method to be utilized. Idea technology. I wonder if "monotheism" predates history.

 

Nebkheperuiah.jpg

I've pictured that dung beetle before rolling the sun through the sky. But also rolling eclipses :rofl:

65278_w_450_338.jpg

Let there be light... :P

Edited by Orestes_3113

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Wepwawet
39 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Why would a direct translation be necessary? Derivatives transfer value of the impied substance. To me it is inconceivable, given the naming amd context surrounding the Gods that they would not monitor. I can understand the problem of manifesting proofs, but lack of proof does not mean an impossibility. It simply means there is no material evidence for it.

"No visible support" ;)

I am sorry I do not follow you.

Granted

Ok.

What I also find interesting about the Theban triad, or better said the triad involving a miraculous conception is that it evolves into the concept of monotheism.

Polytheism allows for individualism for all while monotheism lays claim to authority with exclusove divinity on top.

In this sense monotheism is a social evolution towards an institutionalized powergrab which perhaps requires this triad. Like a function or method to be utilized. Idea technology. I wonder if "monotheism" predates history.

The Egyptians would not name a boy after Thoth if they really meant him to be named after the Moon as Thoth and Iah are not synonymous. You may think they are, but they are not. They can, and did "play" with names in the written form by making a rebus and so using elements that are not at face value connected to the actual name, but I have never seen a rebus of Thutmose with an lunar element. Thutmose means what it says, born of Thoth, nothing to do with the Moon per se. Your contention has no support.

I mentioned the lunar throne name of Tutankhaten to show how the Moon is used when forming part of a name. It is a direct reference because they need to show that it is the Moon, not Ra or anything else. This ties in with the above paragraph. It also shows that there are genuine mysteries regarding the Moon during the 18th Dynasty that are nothing to do with your astro whatever.

The Theban triad, or any other of their triads, do not evolve into monotheism as, after Atum, Shu and Tefnut, three in one, all the other trinities are composed on an almost ad hoc basis with unworkable paradoxes where some gods are their own grandparent. It's fifty years ago that Hornung addressed the issue of monotheism in Ancient Egypt, and trashed the idea. What happened with Akhenaten and the idea of the One and the Many is a subject way way beyond the type of discourse taking place here, which is essentially shallow, and I don't mean that in an arrogant manner, it's just a fact. However, IMO monotheism in the form of Sunworship is likely to have been the primeval basis of all religion, baboons know this.

Edited by Wepwawet
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Orestes_3113
13 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Your contention has no support.

nothing to do with your astro whatever.

the One and the Many is a subject way way beyond the type of discourse taking place here, which is essentially shallow, and I don't mean that in an arrogant manner, it's just a fact.

However, IMO monotheism in the form of Sunworship is likely to have been the primeval basis of all religion, baboons know this.

Yeah I get that. I am still sticking with May 1487 BCE as the best date for Senenmut's ceiling. Better than 1534 BCE imo.

Astro-whatever. At least we are making progress here ;).

That is ok, I understand that my lack of depth doesnt allow for deep conversations for Egyptologists. It is not my field. I simply unwind a thread of dates based on Biblical texts and the Feb 27th, 1953 BCE ultra rare conjunction. This was the fundamental idea.

Yeah but that is too easy. Monotheism is highly political. It is political to such degree that theism and atheism simply becomes a variant of polytheism. All that matters is the power structure and how you relate to it. This powerstructure is only possible through monotheism imo. I accept that this has nothing to do with AE, I was merely thinking from the principles of it and projecting it, an error on my part.

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Wepwawet
4 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Yeah I get that. I am still sticking with May 1487 BCE as the best date for Senenmut's ceiling. Better than 1534 BCE imo.

 

The sky shown in the tomb of Senenmut, or Sety I, does not have to correlate to the actual sky that they observed in their lifetimes. Of course it may well do, and probably does, in their way of interpreting the sky, but as we are looking at a tomb it means we are looking at a space where time is different to that outside of the tomb. Nothing has to correlate to what is outside the tomb, only that what is in the tomb is eternal, so the movements of the heavenly bodies are irrelevant to their depiction in the tomb. Senenmut is not going to deliberately make things up, so what we see will have a basis in reality, but it is what he wants his eternal reality to be. So we have to be very careful when looking at depictions in tombs and taking them to represent reality, only a possible reality. It's rather like if the church of Sant'Ignazio di Loyola in Rome had survived for 3,500 years and those in the future thought that the paintings on the ceiling depicted what people at the time of it's creation actually thought was in the heavens.

Looks fantasic, full of religious symbolism, but total fantasy.

800px-Frescos_of_Ignatius_of_Loyola_HDR.

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Orestes_3113
6 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

The sky shown in the tomb of Senenmut, or Sety I, does not have to correlate to the actual sky that they observed in their lifetimes. Of course it may well do, and probably does, in their way of interpreting the sky, but as we are looking at a tomb it means we are looking at a space where time is different to that outside of the tomb. Nothing has to correlate to what is outside the tomb, only that what is in the tomb is eternal, so the movements of the heavenly bodies are irrelevant to their depiction in the tomb. Senenmut is not going to deliberately make things up, so what we see will have a basis in reality, but it is what he wants his eternal reality to be. So we have to be very careful when looking at depictions in tombs and taking them to represent reality, only a possible reality. It's rather like if the church of Sant'Ignazio di Loyola in Rome had survived for 3,500 years and those in the future thought that the paintings on the ceiling depicted what people at the time of it's creation actually thought was in the heavens.

Looks fantasic, full of religious symbolism, but total fantasy.

800px-Frescos_of_Ignatius_of_Loyola_HDR.

So when explain myth I get slammed for astrology when I do not infer influence, in effect separating myth from factual history.

And here you provide a disclaimer doing the exact same thing. Seperating in time what is eternal, or inside the tomb, from what is temporal or outside the tomb.

And I must agree with you that this certainly is a possibility. It will not be for me to research that, that is certain.

Be that as it may I do find it intriguing that a ceiling such as the one from Senenmut provides two potential matches that culminate in a partial lunar eclipse that is visible from the region that they occupied. And that is pretty much all I have to say about that.

Maybe I will revisit Egypt at a later time when I am a bit further in the Biblical chronology. We will see.

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jaylemurph

I feel like Orestes really enjoyed Calvinball as a youth. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Hanslune
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I feel like Orestes really enjoyed Calvinball as a youth. 

—Jaylemurph 

Its science done like the Three Stooges would have preformed Chinese Opera in mime.

Edited by Hanslune
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Orestes_3113
5 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I feel like Orestes really enjoyed Calvinball as a youth. 

—Jaylemurph 

Perhaps :D

In order to proceed, can I assume that we all agree that what I am doing is neither astronomy nor astrology? 

To the forum members the randomness is more like Calvinball, but not astronomy or astrology...

Agreed?

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