Astrotheology

[Herbert Sanders]

2 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I /do/ agree that what we would call orbital speed would be a characteristic that could be measured and compared, and seems to me likely to have been a comparison point.

--Jaylemurph

Thank you. At least now I know that it isnt simply brick walls that I am communicating with.

[Swede]

41 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

I just bounce around 

You know this.

Yes, more fabrications. In addition, you are ignoring one of your primary tenets. Senenmut, etc were real individuals, of which we have rather extensive credible documentation. They were not myths. Your non-argument is simply an ever-shifting shambles.

.

[Kenemet]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:52 PM, Orestes_3113 said:

@Kenemet

Astrology:

All definitions on astrology all imply some kind of influence. I strongly denounce that.

Astrology is also about determining the character of a person or event.  This is what you're doing.

Astrology.

Quote

You quote me on Akhenaten because I have put him forward. Yes but I did so through the context of myth, having no regards for historical facts.

There isn't any myth about Akhenaten.  You claim you're exploring myths but then you don't put forth any of the propaganda (myth) put out by Akhenaten and you're basing your "myth" on older information about him.

That isn't myth.

It's early scholarship that was later corrected.

Tying historical events to planets and constellations is astrology.

[Herbert Sanders]

6 minutes ago, Swede said:

Yes, more fabrications. In addition, you are ignoring one of your primary tenets. Senenmut, etc were real individuals, of which we have rather extensive credible documentation. They were not myths. Your non-argument is simply an ever-shifting shambles.

.

Be that as it may his ceiling could be eternal and not reflect his life 

We should be careful with that.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Herbert Sanders]

47 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Astrology is also about determining the character of a person or event.  This is what you're doing.

Astrology.

No that is not what I am doing. Stories are unrelated to characters of persons as you describe or events.

47 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

There isn't any myth about Akhenaten.  You claim you're exploring myths but then you don't put forth any of the propaganda (myth) put out by Akhenaten and you're basing your "myth" on older information about him.

That isn't myth.

It's early scholarship that was later corrected.

Tying historical events to planets and constellations is astrology.

I am not talking historical events... when i was pointing out Akhenaten did I not reject historical facts? Did I not point out symbolism over anything real ie the female features? I went for a story that could be parallel to history without any necessary connection.

Stop trying to connect, I do not subscribe to influence.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Kenemet]

11 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Before moving on Seti I was mentioned along Senenmut so I had to take a look at his ceiling. Good images are a bit scarce for some reason but I did manage to find a few:

Now as always I will have a very superficial look at it .

...and ignore the writing.  There's a lot of writing there.

 

Quote

Two segments, upper and lower.

What strikes me is that in the upper segment there are three horus gods following the two main gods:

 

Those are constellations (the three Horuses.)  The writing says they're constellations - as anyone who's ever looked up papers on the ceiling can attest.

Quote

On the Senenmut ceiling this was merely a group of two, not three. For me this means nothing more than a group of 3, not 2. I do not imply placement or anything else therefore my interpretation is very broad and perhaps as a consequence less meaningful.

It's constellations.

Using scholar.com will straighten you out.

Also... this isn't a myth.

Quote

We see a lion with lots of stars beneath a goddess so I will simply read that as Leo and Virgo.

You can read it that way, but it's Selkis and Ma'ai, according to what's written there.

Quote

There is a man pointing up much like with the Senenmut ceiling and so he is probably pointing towards a lunar eclipse again. Now he is pointing towards a Heavenly Bull. In my writings I have always pointed out that the heavenly bull is a major asterism surrounding the constellation Pisces.

That's Set (Seti's patron deity) spearing a crocodile and is show in other tombs of the era...with the spear....the constellation Gemini (Davis, Virginia Lee. "Identifying ancient Egyptian constellations." Journal for the History of Astronomy 16.9 (1985): S102-S104.)

Quote

It is a depiction that I come across time and time again (even at Göbleki Tepe, remember that? ) . Behind the Heavenly Bull there is some kind of strip that I associate with the Milky Way perhaps leading up to Ophiuchus which is where the Milky Way crosses the Ecliptic. And if that is the case then the person standing behind the Heavenly Bull could be the constellation Aquila.

So far, you're not doing very well.  The goddess Nut is the Milky Way.

And the bull's leg is the Big Dipper.  You've got the wrong orientation.

Quote

During the new moon before the autumn eclipse season the sun is between Virgo and Leo while the Sun, the Moon and Mars make a conjunction:

So that's astrology again.  

Quote

You can see that all the smaller planets have gathered around Leo while the Sun is at the start of Virgo (at her feet).

That's astrology.

Quote

Which leaves Saturn, for which I have no answer although I do like to note that from a "astrological" perspective... and I mean this in terms, like a language, not as a means to infer any kind of influence... let this be said and understood... both Jupiter and Saturn are within their respective home sign.

Yep.  Astrology.

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Orestes_3113 said:

No that is not what I am doing. Stories are unrelated to characters of persons as you describe or events.

I am not talking historical events... when i was pointing out Akhenaten did I not reject historical facts? Did I not point out symbolism over anything real ie the female features? I went for a story that could be parallel to history without any necessary connection.

Stop trying to connect, I do not subscribe to influence.

So... you're making up your own story/myth about Akhenaten and tying it to random constellations?

Right.

 

[Hanslune]

17 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

So... you're making up your own story/myth about Akhenaten and tying it to random constellations?

Right.

 

The 2nd final defense for a failing ideas - 'I'm just making stuff up for fun no science'

The final defense is to announce it was, 'just a masterful joke and 'we' all fell for it'.

I think it might be time for him to take this circus to Graham Hancock - they actually like stuff like this.

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/list.php?1

Edited February 13, 2021 by Hanslune

[Trelane]

4 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Is water wet? I suppose they did view the night sky and monitor the visible planets. If they did then they would have noticed their movements, they would have compared them in size.

So this is me assuming that they knew this. Not evidenced, assumed. To me it is more likely that they viewed these planets, as the ceilings suggest, than that they not viewed them.

1. Not astrology!

See the problem is, several others have also called you on this. They've shown exactly where you are doing so. You either fail to understand this or you are willingly ignoring facts being presented. Either way this is interesting case study on how woo thinkers formulate ideas and interact with others. I motion to close this nonsense, it's taken up enough bandwidth already.

[Herbert Sanders]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

...and ignore the writing.  There's a lot of writing there.

Icast the writing aside. I am illiterate and the Naram-Sin stele has shown me that images can deviate from the writing. Although I admit with these ceilings that would be less the case so I would be open for discussion. But I think you are too butthurt over astrology that you cannot stop the animosity.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Those are constellations (the three Horuses.)  The writing says they're constellations - as anyone who's ever looked up papers on the ceiling can attest.

Yes I know, but houses can be occupied or vacant.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It's constellations.

Using scholar.com will straighten you out.

Also... this isn't a myth.

I know. I didnt state these were planets directly also look at the projection 3 houses. I made sure to be consistent with it.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

You can read it that way, but it's Selkis and Ma'ai, according to what's written there.

Well I do read it that way as it makes sense. No other interpretion has made more sense than mine so...

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's Set (Seti's patron deity) spearing a crocodile and is show in other tombs of the era...with the spear....the constellation Gemini (Davis, Virginia Lee. "Identifying ancient Egyptian constellations." Journal for the History of Astronomy 16.9 (1985): S102-S104.)

Just because someone wrote about it doesnt make things true. From what I have read so far everyone is still trying to piece the puzzle. My style is simply unorthodox and people are triggered because of it.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

So far, you're not doing very well.  The goddess Nut is the Milky Way.

And the bull's leg is the Big Dipper.  You've got the wrong orientation.

Well Nut is the Milky Way yes but this is just a small segment so the context is different. Bull's leg being the Big Dipper I have seen it being correlated but is there any proof? Seems like a shoehorned solution to me. Is there a definitive statement on this or is everyone simply agreeing to the first person that brought it up for the reason that they had no alternative? (big circle jerk possibly)

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

So that's astrology again.  

No it is not, you are doing it again! It is a description of placement. I do not infer any influence. Proof my wrong.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's astrology

And again merely a discription using a language. You are mixing things up again.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Yep.  Astrology.

Hahaha I even explicitly state the situation. So proof to me where I infer influence or accept you are wrong and perhaps make an apology for your behavior.

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

So... you're making up your own story/myth about Akhenaten and tying it to random constellations?

Right.

With Akhenaten essentially yes. That is why I stated from the start that it was a very weak link. I simply followed the imagery and what I could find on it. Also it now serves as proof that I do not infer influence aka astrology.

3 hours ago, Trelane said:

See the problem is, several others have also called you on this. They've shown exactly where you are doing so. You either fail to understand this or you are willingly ignoring facts being presented. Either way this is interesting case study on how woo thinkers formulate ideas and interact with others. I motion to close this nonsense, it's taken up enough bandwidth already.

No there are only individuals who redefine the term astrology by taking out the essential part pertaining the influence of astro on the mundane, be it in the form of character or events.

For definitions go back to post #241

Yet I have never demonstrated this influence because I do not adhere to it.

I get slammed for intellectual "dishonesty" for not adhering the scientific method, I am cool with that as my standards simply do not allow 100% knowing. I shoot for probability which to me can end up being more truthful then to continually dismiss the possible because of a lack of certainty. When you only wish for 100% certainty you can only end up being 100% wrong imo because you take out the human component.

Anyways what some here are doing is willfully twist definitions in order to promote falsehoods that would otherwise not be there. These individuals should take a hard look at themselves, shame on them!

Edited February 13, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Wepwawet]

9 hours ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Be that as it may his ceiling could be eternal and not reflect his life 

In your reply to Swede you have determined that Senenmut's ceiling could be eternal, so how do you arrive at this other than copying what I have written in two previous posts, #246 and #251. That, I suggest, is intellectual dishonesty in the manner in which you put forward this idea as it is quite clear from all your posts that you have very limited knowledge of Ancient Egypt, let alone it's funeral practices and religious beliefs. I'm not going to trawl back through all the posts in this thread and others, but this is not the first time you have copied facts or ideas and then re-presented them as being your ideas after it being clear that you previously had no knowledge. Another example is of the astronomical ceiling of Seti I. Until I mentioned it, it was clear you had no idea of it's existance, yet here you are blatantly now making stuff up about what it contains, as Kenemet has shown. Your methods stink.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Wepwawet

[Herbert Sanders]

41 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

In your reply to Swede you have determined that Senenmut's ceiling could be eternal, so how do you arrive at this other than copying what I have written in two previous posts, #246 and #251. That, I suggest, is intellectual dishonesty in the manner in which you put forward this idea as it is quite clear from all your posts that you have very limited knowledge of Ancient Egypt, let alone it's funeral practices and religious beliefs. I'm not going to trawl back through all the posts in this thread and others, but this is not the first time you have copied facts or ideas and then re-presented them as being your ideas after it being clear that you previously had no knowledge. Another example is of the astronomical ceiling of Seti I. Until I mentioned it, it was clear you had no idea of it's existance, yet here you are blatantly now making stuff up about what it contains, as Kenemet has shown. Your methods stink.

I am simply demonstating the blatant hypocricy.

When it comes to me representing presented facts... well that is what I do. I re-interpretate. Seti-I was interesting from my point of view.

Kenemet as an astrologer fails to understand the definition of his trade, quite amusing, and many are simply clinging to him as a point of authority. Kenemet continuously tries to connect astro to the mundane, makes up false connections in my posts etc. If there is a forum member dishonest when it comes to what is or is not astrology then it is Kenemet. He should be ashamed of himself.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Wepwawet]

20 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

I am simply demonstating the blatant hypocricy.

When it comes to me representing presented facts... well that is what I do. I re-interpretate. Seti-I was interesting from my point of view.

Kenemet as an astrologer fails to understand the definition of his trade, quite amusing, and many are simply clinging to him as a point of authority. Kenemet continuously tries to connect astro to the mundane, makes up false connections in my posts etc. If there is a forum member dishonest when it comes to what is or is not astrology then it is Kenemet. He should be ashamed of himself.

Hypocricy of whom.

I note that you do not dispute my accusations of your intellectual dishonesty, good.

I am neither astrologer nor astronomer, so cannot meaningfully engage on those specific topics, so as for your debates on this with Kenemet, I'll leave it with her to show you your errors.

[Abramelin]

And, Orestes, astrology is not necessary about influence or cause and effect, as you can read here:

LINK

What you are doing, or trying to do, is give meaning to celestial phenomena by comparing them with mundain/earthly events, and visa versa.

That also falls under astrology.

[Herbert Sanders]

28 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And, Orestes, astrology is not necessary about influence or cause and effect, as you can read here:

LINK

What you are doing, or trying to do, is give meaning to celestial phenomena by comparing them with mundain/earthly events, and visa versa.

That also falls under astrology.

It is about the influence, that is the point.

Synchronisity is also about influence.

And No I am not comparing mundain/earthly events to celestial phenomena. That is exactly what I am contesting.

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

Hypocricy of whom.

I note that you do not dispute my accusations of your intellectual dishonesty, good.

I am neither astrologer nor astronomer, so cannot meaningfully engage on those specific topics, so as for your debates on this with Kenemet, I'll leave it with her to show you your errors.

Hypocricy of those that say I am providing an alternative narrative that is not connected to mundain events but appropriated to an individual. Yet when we are talking ceilings then it is perfectly ok and splits time dimensions, in or outside the tomb.

To me in/outside a tomb is not much different from myth/life.

My dishonesty is not about me acting not honourable but about me lacking certain standards. To this I agree. But if you mean to say dishonest because of ill will or false intent, trying to sell falsehoods then I must object.

Kenemet is simply wrong, perhaps she has doubled down too much to admit it.

[Abramelin]

I was simply explaining what astrology is about, despite what you want to make of it.

[Herbert Sanders]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I was simply explaining what astrology is about, despite what you want to make of it.

You completely missed the mark though.

Taken from your link:

Quote

Astrology is based on the principle of synchronicity. The "influence of the stars" does not exist in a causal sense. There is no causal influence at all. Astrology "works" - if this is the right word - in the way inscribed on the tabula smaragdina:

What is below is like what is above.
And what is above is like what is below,
so that the miracle of the One may be accomplished.

It clearly explains that the idea is as above so below and in this regard astrology is about influence or synchronisity, the bond between. It all is just more nuance to explain the same result.

Now I myself have used this term as well within the contect of astrology. Or to explain the nature of mythical narrative as the building blocks are the same. However myth itself, or an adapted story is not reality based!

There is no below and so there is no connection as in "as above, so below".

And so again when explaining myth using terms common in astrology is NOT the same as actually applying astrology. Because, again, the influence is not there. Lore is fictional (think Romulus and Remus).

Now could those that have written down the myth believe in astrology and applied it in their lives? Most certainly but that is a different topic. Are these myths that I have examined steeped in "astrological insights" most definitely! But that this kind of thinking was applied to construct a myth does not imply that the myth itself has any astrological basis.

Why? Because it is a work of fiction, not rooted in reality. It cannot be an endpoint to bridge the as above to the so below...

I hope this makes it clear to you and everyone else.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Abramelin]

From my link, and what you quoted:

"There is no causal influence at all".

The idea is 'synchronicity'.

And that's what you're all about.

 

 

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Hypocricy of those that say I am providing an alternative narrative that is not connected to mundain events but appropriated to an individual. Yet when we are talking ceilings then it is perfectly ok and splits time dimensions, in or outside the tomb.

To me in/outside a tomb is not much different from myth/life.

My dishonesty is not about me acting not honourable but about me lacking certain standards. To this I agree. But if you mean to say dishonest because of ill will or false intent, trying to sell falsehoods then I must object.

But you are, by your own posts, providing an alternate narrative. Your thinking that because there were four Thutmoses in the 18th Dynasty means that the Moon was particularly important, is an alternate narrative, likewise your posts on Akhenaten.

What you make of the tomb is not relevant, it is what the Egyptians thought about the tomb that is important, and this is not a subject where we are blundering in the dark. You ignoring fact in order to shoehorn in your ideas is also an alternate narrative.

Well I'll give you credit for admitting that you have been dishonest and are lacking standards. I'll admit that I don't specifically see ill will, but surely on your very frank and damning admissions, your posts must be seen as being of false intent, even if, perhaps, unintentionally. The trial of Savonarola comes to mind here, where he genuinely thought he was doing good, but made errors in trying to put his message across as he was blinded to any reality except that which he saw, and compounded error with error. That's now a kinder prosecutor than the one he faced may have put it, some today think him a saint.

[Abramelin]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:17 PM, Orestes_3113 said:

I don't understand what is not to get. It is very simple. Stories are designed with astronomy in mind. That in itself is groundbreaking.

 

Astrology.

[Abramelin]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:36 PM, Orestes_3113 said:

Sorry I am not trying to belittle. But honestly I do not get the confusion. If these stories are in fact patterned to the skies would this not be news to you? Just this single point.

Astrology.

[Herbert Sanders]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

From my link, and what you quoted:

"There is no causal influence at all".

The idea is 'synchronicity'.

And that's what you're all about.

Synchronicity between observances and the mundane. I reject the mundane so there can not be any synchronicity. Try to understand.

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

But you are, by your own posts, providing an alternate narrative. Your thinking that because there were four Thutmoses in the 18th Dynasty means that the Moon was particularly important, is an alternate narrative, likewise your posts on Akhenaten.

What you make of the tomb is not relevant, it is what the Egyptians thought about the tomb that is important, and this is not a subject where we are blundering in the dark. You ignoring fact in order to shoehorn in your ideas is also an alternate narrative.

Well I'll give you credit for admitting that you have been dishonest and are lacking standards. I'll admit that I don't specifically see ill will, but surely on your very frank and damning admissions, your posts must be seen as being of false intent, even if, perhaps, unintentionally. The trial of Savonarola comes to mind here, where he genuinely thought he was doing good, but made errors in trying to put his message across as he was blinded to any reality except that which he saw, and compounded error with error. That's now a kinder prosecutor than the one he faced may have put it, some today think him a saint.

I take the Thutmose name simply as a hint. My statements are not definitive they only serve to open up discussion. Much like brain storming. In the even this would be true... then... and... and so on.

But there is the rub there are many versions of what we think they thought about their tombs. My method might be unorthodox, unproven even crazy. In the end it simply is an honest attemp gain some light on the situation, and I do my best. My angle is unique and therefore has merit if something sticks. The dates I provide seem to be more coherent then those found in scientific articles. And I am having fun with it .

I understand the problem of compounding errors and I admit confirmation bias leads to crazy ideas. Conversely auto denial stomps growth. So ideas need to sprout and cut fast it doesnt work. Which is why I retracted Akhenaten without too much of a fuss. But Akhenaten has been the only point that had me contradicted. On all others the critiques come from outside the scope. Meaning they were inadmissable to me.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Orestes_3113

[Herbert Sanders]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Astrology.

Astrotheology is not astrology

But keep doing the repeat.

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Orestes_3113 said:

Astrotheology is not astrology

But keep doing the repeat.

I will.

Here's a link that will inspire you:

LINK

[Herbert Sanders]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I will.

Here's a link that will inspire you:

LINK

Almost as if you have been given permission to post things that are not quote on topic. I mean there is overlap becauelse it concerns the history of astrology and how it is rooted in the ancient world.

It gives examples... but it doesnt define astrology although from the examples we can clearly distill the need for influence.

And so the link does nothing to further the argument it only increases the quantity of astrological examples. Which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread namely astrotheology, lacking this defining influence part.