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Eldorado

Northern Irish unionists and Tory betrayal

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Eldorado

In 1921, Sir Edward Carson, leader of the Irish unionists, uttered words anyone tempted to fall for the charms of English Tories should learn by heart. “What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative party into power.”

The Liberal Democrats have been saying much the same for five years. Working-class voters in red wall constituencies will be saying much the same in five years’ time. Today’s puppets, however, are Carson’s heirs in the Democratic Unionist party. Couldn’t they see what would happen?

Did they not read the polls that showed English Tories would rather accept a united Ireland and independent Scotland than give up on Brexit?

Full article at MSN: Link

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acute
50 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

Did they not read the polls that showed English Tories would rather accept a united Ireland and independent Scotland than give up on Brexit?

Secretly, I think the Tories would be happy with a united Ireland, despite their 4-nation rhetoric and their Unionist roots.

 

Edited by acute
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RAyMO
21 minutes ago, acute said:

despite their 4-nation rhetoric

that's all it is - rhetoric

 

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L.A.T.1961

Nick Cohen looks like he got out of bed the wrong side.

I will give him bonus marks for dragging in Boris's current and X female companions and 100 year old Irish politics in a futile attempt to create a narrative.

I particularly like this comment - DUP egged Tory England on as it went berserk. :lol:  and no good piece can miss out on a Trump mention which he fitted in without drawing breath. 

A score of 7/10 on the Boris, Brexit derangement syndrome scale.  :tu:

 

  

 

 

 

 

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TigerBright19

I sometimes feel Northern Ireland is more British than England.  The contrast is very noticeable.  The loyalist areas have street curbs that are painted red white and blue, Union flags fly outside most loyalist homes, and every aspect of British tradition is taken extremely seriously.  Yet across the water in modern Britain it looks like all of that is toned down and discouraged.  People say Northern Ireland's patriotism represents the way England used to look back in the 1950's and never changed with the times.  The Empire was gone but not its traditions and patriotic hierarchy.  At least that is how it felt.  My parents used to laugh at PM Question Time and say "They can't wait to get rid of us."  I did not understand what they meant until I went to England.  When people heard my Ulster accent they kept calling me Irish.  I told them I'm an Ulsterman and not an Irishman, but they did not understand, and each time I returned to England they would still call me Irish, and I would typically respond with "I'm from the North" and their reply would mostly be dismissive e.g. - "North, South, it's all the same to us."  When I went to the south of England there were a few who seemed to be afraid when they heard my accent, and a number of shops were hesitant to take Ulster money. 

On one occasion the cashier had to call the manager because she would not take Ulster notes.  She was adamant that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK and its currency was not acceptable.  The manager inspected the note and told her to take the money because it had bank 'sterling' written on it which made her realize it was British currency.  When I returned to Belfast my sense of loyalism had certainly changed.  I knew that the demographics of N. Ireland were slowly changing in favour of Irish nationalism and that unification would inevitably happen, so I typically just stay on the fence and let nature take its course.

 

Edited by TigerBright19
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RAyMO

There is nothing in that article that people in Northern Ireland have not already known and even advised the DUP of during its pro Brexit and anti May actions. 

They were warned that Boris would throw them under a bus - but they believed they were exceptional, after all didn't Boris come to the DUP convention and tell them that. 

Yes the DUP fooled themselves and it hurts, so much they can't admit it, although Ian paisley came very close to doing so in the Commons. 

But one must understand why the DUP campaigned for Brexit, it was sod all to do with economic opportunity or British sovereignty. It was all to do with differentiation between the two parts of Ireland, a metaphorical border if not a physical one, an obstacle to the potential of a United Ireland. May's Brexit would have worked out for the DUP, but they were on a roll - a border was in sight and they charged ahead with Boris's more extreme version, while oblivious to the warning signs and calls directed at them, including as the article states, from the electorate  

Oh I know they publicly claimed they did not want a physical border in Ireland, but I doubt a single voter in NI believed them. 

so yes the Tories betrayed Unionism, but the DUP set Unionism up.  

As an aside the Ulster Unionist Party - which is more closely aligned to the Tories than the DUP - campaigned against Brexit. 

Edited by RAyMO

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Peter B
29 minutes ago, TigerBright19 said:

I sometimes feel Northern Ireland is more British than England.  The contrast is very noticeable.  The loyalist areas have street curbs that are painted red white and blue, Union flags fly outside most loyalist homes, and every aspect of British tradition is taken extremely seriously.  Yet across the water in modern Britain it looks like all of that is toned down and discouraged.  People say Northern Ireland's patriotism represents the way England used to look back in the 1950's and never changed with the times.  The Empire was gone but not its traditions and patriotic hierarchy.  At least that is how it felt.  My parents used to laugh at PM Question Time and say "They can't wait to get rid of us."  I did not understand what they meant until I went to England.  When people heard my Ulster accent they kept calling me Irish.  I told them I'm an Ulsterman and not an Irishman, but they did not understand, and each time I returned to England they would still call me Irish, and I would typically respond with "I'm from the North" and their reply would mostly be dismissive e.g. - "North, South, it's all the same to me."  When I went to the south of England there were a few who seemed to be afraid when they heard my accent, and a number of shops were hesitant to take Ulster money. 

On one occasion the cashier had to call the manager because she would not take Ulster notes.  She was adamant that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK and its currency was not acceptable.  The manager inspected the note and told her to take the money because it had bank 'sterling' written on it which made her realize it was British currency.  When I returned to Belfast my sense of loyalism had certainly changed.  I knew that the demographics of N. Ireland were slowly changing in favour of Irish nationalism and that unification would inevitably happen, so I typically just stay on the fence and let nature take its course.

 

Interesting perspective from the inside, thank you.

About 30 years ago (so before the Good Friday Agreement) I met a guy from NI on a tour group. He'd grown up in Belfast but moved to Liverpool as soon as he could, just to get away from what was going on there at the time. He never said whether he was Catholic or Protestant, and frankly, to the rest of us in the tour group (all Aussies) it didn't matter.

What was more revealing to us was the joke he told about his "Jewish mate" who was walking down a Belfast street one day and was stopped by a gang. When asked whether he was Catholic or Protestant he replied that he was neither, he was Jewish, at which the gang leader angrily asked, "But are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

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RAyMO
9 minutes ago, Peter B said:

What was more revealing to us was the joke he told about his "Jewish mate" who was walking down a Belfast street one day and was stopped by a gang. When asked whether he was Catholic or Protestant he replied that he was neither, he was Jewish, at which the gang leader angrily asked, "But are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

Joke with a jag as they say. In those days being in the wrong area at the wrong time could be fatal, certainly would lead to hospitalisation. And there was no middle ground the - you are either with us or against us - attitude prevailed.

Then and even to this day strangers when meeting in Northern Ireland will have determined the other's religion within 2minutes - without ever asking the question, often 5 secs will do - "hello William I want to introduce you to Paddy"  

Edited by RAyMO
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TigerBright19
50 minutes ago, Peter B said:

Interesting perspective from the inside, thank you.

About 30 years ago (so before the Good Friday Agreement) I met a guy from NI on a tour group. He'd grown up in Belfast but moved to Liverpool as soon as he could, just to get away from what was going on there at the time. He never said whether he was Catholic or Protestant, and frankly, to the rest of us in the tour group (all Aussies) it didn't matter.

What was more revealing to us was the joke he told about his "Jewish mate" who was walking down a Belfast street one day and was stopped by a gang. When asked whether he was Catholic or Protestant he replied that he was neither, he was Jewish, at which the gang leader angrily asked, "But are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?"

lol.  That does happen.  Almost everyone was judged by their religion and it took seconds to determine it by their slang and even how they walk.  Schools, shops, and streets were segregated (many still are) and it was often the deciding factor when applying for work to choose the right religion on the application form.  When Brexit happened and talks of a new border poll came into question the main issue discussed in the streets for a while was not politics or economics, it was whether the Union flag would have to change if N. Ireland left the union.  e.g.

 

flagchange.png

 

If it were to stay the same it would have to represent N. Ireland in some form, but if Irish unification happened and N.I. automatically re-joins the European Union again, it would lead to the ultimate question - If the union flag represents N.I. and the EU represents them as well, then does the Union flag return to Brussels again?  Can a nation have two official flags?

 

 

Edited by TigerBright19
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Eldorado

Related news...

Foster thanks 'people from all backgrounds across UK' for signing Article 16 petition as parliamentary debate secured with 100k signatures

--

Meanwhile, the County Armagh Grand Orange Lodge stated that the protocol was designed to “placate those with aspirations for an all-island republic” and will ultimately lead to a united Ireland.

“We would encourage all our unionist representatives throughout the province to form a strong united unionist coalition in this the centenary year of the formation of Northern Ireland,” the lodge said in a statement.

“It is imperative that all party differences are set aside and that all our unionist representatives unite and pledge to work together for the abolition of this iniquitous deal which, if it remains in force, will ultimately see an all-island republic which our forefathers strongly opposed.”

Belfast Telegraph

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RAyMO
18 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

Related news...

Foster thanks 'people from all backgrounds across UK' for signing Article 16 petition as parliamentary debate secured with 100k signatures

--

Meanwhile, the County Armagh Grand Orange Lodge stated that the protocol was designed to “placate those with aspirations for an all-island republic” and will ultimately lead to a united Ireland.

“We would encourage all our unionist representatives throughout the province to form a strong united unionist coalition in this the centenary year of the formation of Northern Ireland,” the lodge said in a statement.

“It is imperative that all party differences are set aside and that all our unionist representatives unite and pledge to work together for the abolition of this iniquitous deal which, if it remains in force, will ultimately see an all-island republic which our forefathers strongly opposed.”

Belfast Telegraph

So the biggest political party in NI, the one that propped up the Tories just a few a years ago, needs a public petition to schedule a parliamentary debate in about 6 months time. Oh how far they have fallen. 

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stevewinn
4 hours ago, RAyMO said:

So the biggest political party in NI, the one that propped up the Tories just a few a years ago, needs a public petition to schedule a parliamentary debate in about 6 months time. Oh how far they have fallen. 

erm, no. they've been raising it directly to the Prime Minister at PMQs and to his office their concerns are well noted. the petition is doing its job, get it signed. The EU cannot be trusted. the mask slipped re; article 16. Its high time we legislated in our Unions interest.

 

 

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Wepwawet
On 2/7/2021 at 12:50 AM, TigerBright19 said:

I sometimes feel Northern Ireland is more British than England.  The contrast is very noticeable.  The loyalist areas have street curbs that are painted red white and blue, Union flags fly outside most loyalist homes, and every aspect of British tradition is taken extremely seriously.  Yet across the water in modern Britain it looks like all of that is toned down and discouraged.  People say Northern Ireland's patriotism represents the way England used to look back in the 1950's and never changed with the times.  The Empire was gone but not its traditions and patriotic hierarchy.  At least that is how it felt.  My parents used to laugh at PM Question Time and say "They can't wait to get rid of us."  I did not understand what they meant until I went to England.  When people heard my Ulster accent they kept calling me Irish.  I told them I'm an Ulsterman and not an Irishman, but they did not understand, and each time I returned to England they would still call me Irish, and I would typically respond with "I'm from the North" and their reply would mostly be dismissive e.g. - "North, South, it's all the same to us."  When I went to the south of England there were a few who seemed to be afraid when they heard my accent, and a number of shops were hesitant to take Ulster money. 

On one occasion the cashier had to call the manager because she would not take Ulster notes.  She was adamant that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK and its currency was not acceptable.  The manager inspected the note and told her to take the money because it had bank 'sterling' written on it which made her realize it was British currency.  When I returned to Belfast my sense of loyalism had certainly changed.  I knew that the demographics of N. Ireland were slowly changing in favour of Irish nationalism and that unification would inevitably happen, so I typically just stay on the fence and let nature take its course.

 

A long time ago I had booked into a hotel in England, and as part of the process had put down my car's registration number. I kid you not that barely two hours later there was a knock on the door and the manager and two police officers walked in to question me, as the hotel manager had picked up on my car's Ulster registration. It was presumed that I "must" be a terrorist suspect. They left redfaced and apologetic when I produced my ID. It was good that the manager was on the ball, but it does show a certain bias based on ignorance, and probably a bit of fear, at that particular time.

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Eldorado

Apprentice Boys join chorus of loyalist anger over Irish Sea border

belfast telegraph

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Eldorado

A Stormont investigation is to take place into the suspension of checks at post-Brexit border posts in Northern Ireland.

The Department of Agriculture temporarily suspended physical checks at Larne and Belfast ports amid security concerns.

Its staff returned to work on Wednesday.

Members of the Agriculture Committee voted five to three in favour of an inquiry on Thursday.

BBC report

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Eldorado

COVID and Brexit Have Pushed Northern Ireland Further Away From the UK

Brexit has fundamentally changed the nature of the union, with recent polling suggests that a united Ireland is closer than ever.

Full article at Vice mag

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keithisco
On 2/7/2021 at 2:48 AM, RAyMO said:

So the biggest political party in NI, the one that propped up the Tories just a few a years ago, needs a public petition to schedule a parliamentary debate in about 6 months time. Oh how far they have fallen. 

The Petition itself underlines the value that UK nationals have in the Union. The majority of signatures appear to have come from England (need to look into that a bit more though). It guages the distrust in the EU and the fact that there should be no checks on goods moving throughout the Union

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stevewinn

Got an e mail this morning regarding the petition.

On Monday 22 February the Petitions Committee will hold a virtual e-petition session to discuss the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

MPs will discuss the issue in light of the petition you have signed calling for the Government to remove barriers to trade within the United Kingdom. A Minister will respond for the Government.

Watch live from 4.30pm on Monday 22 February:
https://youtu.be/1Yntjci_9BQ

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Hammerclaw

 

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RAyMO

<snip>

Edited by RAyMO

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TigerBright19
On 2/13/2021 at 8:30 PM, Hammerclaw said:

 

 

First give America back to the Indians.  ;)

 

 

 

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Hammerclaw
4 hours ago, TigerBright19 said:

 

First give America back to the Indians.  ;)

 

 

 

The Ulster Scots/Scotch-Irish kept the Sabbath--and anything else they could get their hands on.:yes:

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Essan

I have no problem with a united Eire - it makes perfect sense.  As does a united Albion.   

Ironic that it's the Scots - Irishmen - who want to divide Albion into two.    


 

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TigerBright19
1 hour ago, Essan said:

I have no problem with a united Eire - it makes perfect sense.  As does a united Albion.   

Ironic that it's the Scots - Irishmen - who want to divide Albion into two.    


 

Gibraltar still remains as British territory even though the majority voted to remain in the EU and are largely dependent on commerce from mainland Spain.  If they can hold onto their British identity, then I think Northern Ireland can as well.  After all, look at Canada and America with no plans for cross border expansion, or the Middle east, and all the big and small nations of Europe living peacefully side by side.  Surely if they can peacefully co-exist then Ireland can as well with a negotiable partition, similar to the partition of India and creation of Pakistan.  They had their troubles like Ireland, but they accept each other's national identity.  The unification of Ireland would I think jeopardise the Good Friday agreement because it would become obsolete in the event of unification, and all the old terrorist organisation would re-emerge to keep N. Ireland British in the loyalist communities and Irish in the nationalist communities.  Basically it would be the Troubles but in reverse with the Irish army being sent in instead of the British army during the lengthy transition period.

 

 

Edited by TigerBright19

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