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US Woke Culture a Threat to French Culture


OverSword
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France is very prideful and protective of its culture and language. So I'm not suprised by this.

But I do agree that woke culture has dangerous elements in it.

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40 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Diversity is good. Social Media Lynch Mobs not so much.

Diversity is good. I think the term cultural appropriation is dumb and antidiversity though.

Like white woman are allowed to have braids lol. Human cultural literally changes and progresses over time by adopting elements from other cultures. All people do this. 

Edited by spartan max2
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That's the stupidest thing I have ever read.  The french can choose to ignore "U.S. culture" or not.  No one is forcing them to change anything.    If they don't like what is happening on the media they can control that, like china or other countries.  They could even just put disclaimers like "Stupidity from the states" on anything that doesn't mesh with their culture.

Edited by Desertrat56
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5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That's the stupidest thing I have ever read.  The french can choose to ignore "U.S. culture" or not.  No one is forcing them to change anything.    If they don't like what is happening on the media they can control that, like china or other countries.  They could even just put disclaimers like "Stupidity from the states" on anything that doesn't mesh with their culture.

France is very protectionist when it comes to it's culture. In alot of dumb ways in my opinion.

 

Just some examples.

Quote

 

People call us prideful in the U.S but I think France sort of takes the cake on national pride :lol: lol

 

Edited by spartan max2
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18 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That's the stupidest thing I have ever read.  The french can choose to ignore "U.S. culture" or not.

Can they?  Can anyone?  What happens when the cultural leftists in America have taken over and changed every norm we live under and then refuse to trade with nations that refuse to replace the words brother and sister with the word sibling because gender is offensive and cultures that promote gender are hateful?  Do you think that's not realistic?  It's happening in our own government right now.  You can not say mother of father on the senate floor you may only say parent.  You may not say son or daughter only child.  You may not use the word brother or sister only sibling. And that list goes on and on.

As exchange students from American Universities return to their home countries after being indoctrinated into cancel culture the way many young American kids are currently, they will begin implementing these practices and tearing down their own norms.  That is the fear France sensibly has voiced and I don't blame them.  We are becoming perverse and abnormal. 

Edited by OverSword
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6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Can they?  Can anyone?  What happens when the cultural leftists in America have taken over and changed every norm we live under and then refuse to trade with nations that refuse to replace the words brother and sister with the word sibling because gender is offensive and cultures that promote gender are hateful?  Do you think that's not realistic?  It's happening in our own government right now.  You can not say mother of father on the senate floor you may only say parent.  You may not say son or daughter only child.  You may not use the word brother or sister only sibling. And that list goes on and on.

As exchange students from American Universities return to their home countries after being indoctrinated into cancel culture the way many young American kids are currently, they will begin implementing these practices and tearing down their own norms.  That is the fear France sensibly has voiced and I don't blame them.  We are becoming perverse and abnormal. 

Considering we buy the goods, they can choose not to sell to us for such stupid rules.  I think you are going overboard with the fear of "leftists".   If we are electing idiots that want to change the words we use for such silly reasons and other countries follow suit then they are electing equally stupid people.

Edited by Desertrat56
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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Considering we buy the goods, they can choose not to sell to us for such stupid rules.  I think you are going overboard with the fear of "leftists".   If we are electing idiots that want to change the words we use for such silly reasons and other countries follow suit then they are electing equally stupid people.

So you think their fear of the most dominant culture on the planet influencing and changing theirs is unfounded?  I don't.  I think they fear this leftist cancelation culture for good reason.  The best way to control peoples thoughts is to control and limit the language they can use to express those thoughts.  It's happening to us rapidly.  What kind of thing could you have said when you were younger that could get you ostracized today? Or what kind of thing is treated as normal today that would have gotten you ostracized in the 70's, 80's or even 90's?  The definitions of normal, good and bad are changing so rapidly it can make your head spin.

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4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So you think their fear of the most dominant culture on the planet influencing and changing theirs is unfounded?  I don't.  I think they fear this leftist cancelation culture for good reason.  The best way to control peoples thoughts is to control and limit the language they can use to express those thoughts.  It's happening to us rapidly.  What kind of thing could you have said when you were younger that could get you ostracized today? Or what kind of thing is treated as normal today that would have gotten you ostracized in the 70's, 80's or even 90's?  The definitions of normal, good and bad are changing so rapidly it can make your head spin.

I think our parents found it the same way.  I don't understand why you think our culture is the dominant culture.  I disagree about that.

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7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think our parents found it the same way.  I don't understand why you think our culture is the dominant culture.  I disagree about that.

Which is the dominant culture then?  The music of which country is the most listened to?  The television shows and movies of which country are the most exported and viewed?  Where did the internet and home computers that enable us all to communicate like this come from?  Where did cell phone technology originate? Which country is more influential than this one?  

Edited by OverSword
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@OverSword This conversation reminds me of something that happened when I was in junior high (1970).  There was a girl that was from a strict religious family where the girls were not allowed to wear pants, shorts or sleeveless clothing (not even short sleeves, they had to be long).  I felt sorry for her when it was not.  She could not participate in P.E. because the uniform was against their rules and the class was not something anyone one could do in a long skirt.   I played the cello in the orchestra and she played the violin.  The teacher wanted us to have a uniform for our concerts.  He picked out a filmy almost see through material for the girls blouses and the girls mother had a fit.  She wanted us to change it to accommodate her sensibilities.   The teacher was kind and told her that her daughter to wear something the same color that she could choose as acceptable.   

Later when my kids were in school (late 80's) and I was part of the PTA we had a problem with one family (similar) that did not want us to have a halloween carnival like we had done for 30 years at that school.   The principal told us we could not have it because of one family's objections.   We had it but just called it the harvest festival.   I get what you are saying, and it irks me as well.   Nothing changed about our carnival, we even had the gypsy card reader, the costume contest etc.   We need leaders who can think rationally and not waste time and money on minutiae.  We don't have that.  It has nothing to do with what any other countries leaders do.

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30 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Can they?  Can anyone?  What happens when the cultural leftists in America have taken over and changed every norm we live under and then refuse to trade with nations that refuse to replace the words brother and sister with the word sibling because gender is offensive and cultures that promote gender are hateful?  Do you think that's not realistic?  It's happening in our own government right now.  You can not say mother of father on the senate floor you may only say parent.  You may not say son or daughter only child.  You may not use the word brother or sister only sibling. And that list goes on and on.

So how exactly are these rules (which to be honest I doubt are real) enforced? 

 

30 minutes ago, OverSword said:

As exchange students from American Universities return to their home countries after being indoctrinated into cancel culture the way many young American kids are currently, they will begin implementing these practices and tearing down their own norms.  That is the fear France sensibly has voiced and I don't blame them.  We are becoming perverse and abnormal. 

I do agree you are becoming perverse and abnormal, like everyone else, but this latest panic just doesn't sound realistic. 

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2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

So how exactly are these rules (which to be honest I doubt are real) enforced? 

Implementing these language rules is the very first thing the new senate did in January before dealing with anything else including Covid relief legislation

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/532518-house-introduces-gender-neutral-language-in-new

Quote

I do agree you are becoming perverse and abnormal, like everyone else, but this latest panic just doesn't sound realistic. 

The French President and French intellectuals seem not to agree with you.  And I'm on their side, cancel culture is a real danger.  In cancel culture they may find something in your social media that was maybe a bit disagreeable or a tasteless joke when you said it but is now, a few years later, something you wouldn't dare type into cyberspace today.  They will take that old post of yours and use it to ruin your ability to keep a job if possible simply to make an example of you.

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8 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Which is the dominant culture then?  The music of which country is the most listened to?  The television shows and movies of which country are the most exported and viewed?  Where did the internet and home computers that enable us all to communicate like this come from?  Where did cell phone technology originate? Which country is more influential than this one?  

How many of the shows we have were british shows first?  And what about british music.  I don't think we are the dominant culture, I think that would be the UK, but then we have a lot of influence from a lot of other cultures.  Maybe if you don't live in the South West you are not aware of how much of our culture came from Spain, and how integrated a lot of asian culture is into ours.  Every country represented in the ancestors of our citizens has influenced our culture.

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I agree with Macron that there is intimidation from the cancel mob, which makes people incredibly scared to hold opinions on controversial topics.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comment that we should not leave  'the intellectual debate to others'. Which is a real risk when people are  afraid to voice their opinion.

This is more insidious than you might imagine. Someone I consider to be one of the fathers of democracy is Solon of Athens (although when he was a lawmaker Athens was not a democracy). He implemented laws which enabled citizens to reach the point where a democracy could work successfully. IMO the most influential of these laws which lead to democracy was his law that every citizen of Athens must take a position on controversial topics. 

Now consider today. If you hold a strong view on a controversial topic you are in danger of losing your job, your status on social media platforms and even your means of making money through patreon and other banking organizations. This has happened to numerous people recently. Even the former President of the USA.

So IMO we are definitely on track to lose our democracies around the world if we do not leave room for people to be heard, to be wrong and to be redeemed. If we continue to punish people for holding beliefs (which may be wrong) then we all lose, as topics will not be challenged and unwanted cultural change will take place.

 

 

Edited by Hugh Mungus
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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

How many of the shows we have were british shows first?  And what about british music.  I don't think we are the dominant culture, I think that would be the UK, but then we have a lot of influence from a lot of other cultures.  Maybe if you don't live in the South West you are not aware of how much of our culture came from Spain, and how integrated a lot of asian culture is into ours.  Every country represented in the ancestors of our citizens has influenced our culture.

Tell me something Desertrat56, Why do you think there is only one section in these forums dedicated to one single country?  Why isn't there one dedicated only to England, for example?  It's an English website after all.  You are not right.  

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Cancel Culture Comes to France

French universities are embracing an American trend by censoring speakers and suppressing controversial views

Last April, Alain Finkielkraut—one of France’s leading public intellectuals and a member of the prestigious Academie Française—was invited by a student group to give a lecture on “modernity, heritage and progress” at the elite Paris university Sciences Po. Mr. Finkielkraut, who has forcefully defended Western traditions and criticized cultural relativism, drew the wrath of far-left activists who denounced him as “profoundly reactionary,” a “racist and misogynist” whose ideas “put our own existence in danger.”

In response, his lecture was first canceled and then surreptitiously rescheduled, to mislead the protesters who wanted to disrupt it. “When P.C. culture arose in the U.S., I thought it would always remain specifically American. Now I have to observe that France is also contaminated by it. Many students have adopted the posture of cancel culture, preventing people they don’t agree with from speaking,” Mr. Finkielkraut told me last month.

cont...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cancel-culture-comes-to-france-11581004454

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1 minute ago, Hugh Mungus said:

, which makes people incredibly scared to hold opinions on controversial topics.

I haven't met anyone afraid to hold opinions on controversial topics.   Everyone holds opinions about all kinds of things and most people are not "scared" to speak them either.   It is the leaders who are playing this game, and it is not for anyone's benefit except to control us more tightly.

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3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I haven't met anyone afraid to hold opinions on controversial topics.   Everyone holds opinions about all kinds of things and most people are not "scared" to speak them either.   It is the leaders who are playing this game, and it is not for anyone's benefit except to control us more tightly.

Perhaps you have, but they were to scared to tell you?

Maybe it was during one of the race sensitivity trainings at your work place? Or maybe it was at a university campus protest against a speaker?

Both these settings are places where i would be scared to voice my opinion, no matter how reasonable it seems to me. Not because i think my views are reprehensible, but because the reactions to my reasonable views could be incredible damaging to my livelihood or safety.

Edited by Hugh Mungus
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3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Tell me something Desertrat56, Why do you think there is only one section in these forums dedicated to one single country?  Why isn't there one dedicated only to England, for example?  It's an English website after all.  You are not right.  

UK and Europe, Middle east.  I didn't make the forum but I did notice that most of the people who post about "American" politics are from the UK, so it must be they really consider it a favorite topic.  So you are asking the wrong person that question.   We disagree, I think you are not right.

Why don't we have a south american forum or an asian forum, because this forum caters to the UK, Europe, Australia, and North America (which incudes Canada).

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6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Implementing these language rules is the very first thing the new senate did in January before dealing with anything else including Covid relief legislation

https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/diversity-inclusion/532518-house-introduces-gender-neutral-language-in-new

Weird. 

So, how do you make sane people stick to insane rules, such as hiding the gender of your mother?  :lol: 

(I still can't believe it's not exaggerated and I've got no time to go and take a look what exactly is going on.)

 

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The French President and French intellectuals seem not to agree with you.  And I'm on their side, cancel culture is a real danger.  In cancel culture they may find something in your social media that was maybe a bit disagreeable or a tasteless joke when you said it but is now, a few years later, something you wouldn't dare type into cyberspace today.  They will take that old post of yours and use it to ruin your ability to keep a job if possible simply to make an example of you.

They're protective of their language and culture. So am I of mine. That's not changeable. 

But I wasn't under impression it's the same as going through someone's posting history. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If I type something today I should be able to explain tomorrow what I meant, why it was acceptable, do I still think the same etc.etc. 

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