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Still Waters

Real-time communication with lucid dreamers

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Still Waters

Humanity has been able reach distant vistas, such as the Moon, the deep oceans, and the wild expanses at Earth’s poles. Now, scientists have made a new breakthrough in the exploration of a very different type of frontier—the hallucinatory world inside dreams.

An international team of researchers was able to achieve real-time dialogues with people in the midst of lucid dreams, a phenomenon that is called “interactive dreaming,” according to a study published on Thursday in Current Biology. 

Participants in the study were able to correctly respond to questions, such as simple math problems, while they were deep in the throes of rapid-eye movement (REM) sleep. The research reveals a “relatively unexplored communication channel” that could enable “a new strategy for the empirical exploration of dreams,” the study reports.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/4admym/scientists-achieve-real-time-communication-with-lucid-dreamers-in-breakthrough

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00059-2

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John from Lowell

Hi,

Interactive dreaming sounds a lot like telepathic shared dreams to me. It is true that these things are indeed unexplored.

Reality is often stranger than fiction. It is nice to know these studies are being made.

John

 

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moonman

So asking someone what 2+2 is and getting an answer while they are asleep is somehow a big deal? It's not like your brain and ears shut down when you go to sleep, people sleep talk all the time. I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

I don't see the big deal, at all. It happens, and it's no "breakthrough". May as well call hypnosis miraculous at this point.

Edited by moonman
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preacherman76
On 2/19/2021 at 12:14 PM, moonman said:

So asking someone what 2+2 is and getting an answer while they are asleep is somehow a big deal? It's not like your brain and ears shut down when you go to sleep, people sleep talk all the time. I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

I don't see the big deal, at all. It happens, and it's no "breakthrough". May as well call hypnosis miraculous at this point.

Please don't take offense, but would it be safe to say you are a glass is half empty kinda guy?

 

Anyhow, that really cool. Wonder what else they are experimenting with when it comes to dreams?

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Rolci
On 2/19/2021 at 5:14 PM, moonman said:

I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

Nice anecdote. I'd be interested to hear how you made 100% sure they were actually sleeping and their mind wasn't awake with their eyes simply closed. Do you have any proof they were sleeping?

Of course one is not SUPPOSED to know what 2+2 is in their sleep, the rational mind is turned OFF in sleep. Otherwise when you see a monster in your dream you'd know it's not real and no one would have nightmares, right? Are you suggesting everyone's rational mind is on during sleep and people who claim nightmares are simply lying?

The big deal here is lucid dreamers' ability to activate the rational mind during the sleep state. It's something no one else has demonstrated being able to do. And I thought this was easy to comprehend even for common folk.

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razman
26 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Please don't take offense, but would it be safe to say you are a glass is half empty kinda guy?

The way i see the glass is half full or half empty kind of thing is ...............   If it starts out empty and you fill it half way , then its half full. If it starts out full and you pour half out or drink half , then its half empty. :)

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Tom1200
On 2/19/2021 at 5:14 PM, moonman said:

May as well call hypnosis miraculous at this point.

Miraculous?  Vile, nefarious Satanism, more like.  A sorcerer lulls his unsuspecting victim into a trance that allows devils and demons to possess him and make him... do things.  Like forget his name, or think he's a washing machine.  Or forget his anniversary (that excuse really didn't go down very well).  It's monstrous!  As John Dee once told me - never trust a man whose name rhymes with Drown.

On 2/19/2021 at 5:14 PM, moonman said:

So asking someone what 2+2 is and getting an answer while they are asleep is somehow a big deal? It's not like your brain and ears shut down when you go to sleep, people sleep talk all the time. I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

Ditto.  And in reverse - I've been 'woken' from a deep sleep and had an apparently lucid chat that I have no recollection of.  So - was I awake?  asleep?  mesmerised?  possessed by Lucifer's minions?  

(It was actually "what is eight minus six?"  That's way harder than two plus two.  For me at least.)

On 2/19/2021 at 3:28 PM, John from Lowell said:

Interactive dreaming sounds a lot like telepathic shared dreams to me.

It's nothing of the sort.  It sounds, like moonman said, some of us can hear in our sleep and react to simple questions.  In this study by flicking their eyes left-right during REM.  What's that got to do with telepathy?  

On 2/19/2021 at 3:28 PM, John from Lowell said:

It is true that these things are indeed unexplored.

Yes, very true, and with good reason.

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moonman
1 hour ago, Rolci said:

Nice anecdote. I'd be interested to hear how you made 100% sure they were actually sleeping and their mind wasn't awake with their eyes simply closed. Do you have any proof they were sleeping?

I know because in one instance I woke them up after the conversation (it was a very strange talk so I suspected) and they didn't remember what we just talked about a few seconds previous. There are other examples that I won't get into, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know they were asleep, and I'm not stupid enough to think it was something that only happens when I'm around. It has to be common.

Edited by moonman
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godnodog
3 hours ago, Rolci said:

Nice anecdote. I'd be interested to hear how you made 100% sure they were actually sleeping and their mind wasn't awake with their eyes simply closed. Do you have any proof they were sleeping?

Of course one is not SUPPOSED to know what 2+2 is in their sleep, the rational mind is turned OFF in sleep. Otherwise when you see a monster in your dream you'd know it's not real and no one would have nightmares, right? Are you suggesting everyone's rational mind is on during sleep and people who claim nightmares are simply lying?

The big deal here is lucid dreamers' ability to activate the rational mind during the sleep state. It's something no one else has demonstrated being able to do. And I thought this was easy to comprehend even for common folk.

actually I rarely have nightmares because way to often I have lucid dreams, I often wake up tired. the best part of lucid dreams is the detail of stuff, for example I can see the small details in people's faces, and in nightmares I can always fight back with "this is a dream and I will beat you or at least not be defeated. Overall it's a mixed experience, nice when occasionally, bad when often. also its quite frequent to "see" bizarre stuff, and think that's not how physics works and suddenly you realize its connected to something you've experienced while awake, so yes our rational mind does not shut down completely.

Edited by godnodog
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Jon the frog

Interesting stuff ! My wife talk a lot during sleep, sometime answer to questions but nothing make any sense most of the time or it wake her up... she never remember the interaction tho.

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Mr Walker
On 2/20/2021 at 3:44 AM, moonman said:

So asking someone what 2+2 is and getting an answer while they are asleep is somehow a big deal? It's not like your brain and ears shut down when you go to sleep, people sleep talk all the time. I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

I don't see the big deal, at all. It happens, and it's no "breakthrough". May as well call hypnosis miraculous at this point.

I agree. This is one form of sleeping and dreaming I experienced 60 years ago

Plus "sleepwalkers'  can do it all the time. 

The brain is capable of being asleep, and awake, (consciously aware ) at the same  time.

  As a kid I could be in a lucid dream, and  maintain the dream ,while going out of the house to an outside toilet, then returning, washing my hands and going back to bed, while maintaining the dream in a separate part of my mind.

   It is basically just splitting the operation of your mind into  two (or more ) parts, operating at the same time. 

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Mr Walker
On 2/21/2021 at 7:54 AM, godnodog said:

actually I rarely have nightmares because way to often I have lucid dreams, I often wake up tired. the best part of lucid dreams is the detail of stuff, for example I can see the small details in people's faces, and in nightmares I can always fight back with "this is a dream and I will beat you or at least not be defeated. Overall it's a mixed experience, nice when occasionally, bad when often. also its quite frequent to "see" bizarre stuff, and think that's not how physics works and suddenly you realize its connected to something you've experienced while awake, so yes our rational mind does not shut down completely.

Fascinating, and fun, isn't it? 

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
On 2/21/2021 at 4:32 AM, Rolci said:

Nice anecdote. I'd be interested to hear how you made 100% sure they were actually sleeping and their mind wasn't awake with their eyes simply closed. Do you have any proof they were sleeping?

Of course one is not SUPPOSED to know what 2+2 is in their sleep, the rational mind is turned OFF in sleep. Otherwise when you see a monster in your dream you'd know it's not real and no one would have nightmares, right? Are you suggesting everyone's rational mind is on during sleep and people who claim nightmares are simply lying?

The big deal here is lucid dreamers' ability to activate the rational mind during the sleep state. It's something no one else has demonstrated being able to do. And I thought this was easy to comprehend even for common folk.

It must vary a lot 

I can read and do mathematics in my dreams.

I always know I am dreaming, and that everything in  a dream is a construct of my mind (which then allows me to construct any dream content iI want to) 

I havent had a nightmare since I was child, 60 years ago, because I KNOW that dreams are not real; and I can also consciously shape and direct my dreams   So if I was falling I would simply begin flying or call up a magic carpet or flying dragon   .

if someone was trying to kill me I would respond in an interesting way eg i might take control of their mind, or make their gun become a flower etc  In one western dream an opponent  was trying to get me to demonstrate my shooting abilty by hitting bottles and coins thrown into the air,  so my gun would be empty and he could draw on me 

Of course because he was a part of my own mind,  I knew what he was doing, and ran through a few strategies I could use   

eg just keep one bullet in the gun 

Simply use my mind to make the gun hold more bullets OR replace the empty gun with a full one

or  suggest we swapped guns, so i could show him I was just as proficient with his gun as my own 

 Let him shoot me and show that the bullets couldn't hurt me 

I cant remember now which I used, but we never had a shoot out. 

I think I explained that he couldn't harm me, because it was my dream, but that, also, my gun came from  the 20th century,  and held a lot more bullets than he thought 

 

So, when I was a pre-schooler  I used weapons and shields to defeat monsters. Then I developed a personal force field.   Finally, aged about 10-12,  I  realised that, as constructs of my mind, I could simply deconstruct them,  or change them, or take control of them. 

 Some of the dream characters didn't like that at all.  Some  of my regular dream characters  even got so cranky that the y refused to come into my dreams anymore and a few managed to cut me off from the whole part of my dream worlds where the y existed . (great area of study for a psychologist) 

 Often i just let them be, to see what narrative followed.

That enabled me to analyse the dreams for subconscious messages, when i woke up 

I also  sometimes simply told the things in my dreams, which were trying to hurt me, that they were not real, and couldn't harm me.   That annoyed them, also.

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Bed of chaos
Posted (edited)
On 2/19/2021 at 12:14 PM, moonman said:

So asking someone what 2+2 is and getting an answer while they are asleep is somehow a big deal? It's not like your brain and ears shut down when you go to sleep, people sleep talk all the time. I've had whole conversations with people who are asleep.

I don't see the big deal, at all. It happens, and it's no "breakthrough". May as well call hypnosis miraculous at this point.

Sleepwalking and lucid dreaming are completely different. I'd sleepwalk as a child. However I couldn't recall what happen until I awoke. Lucid dreaming usually takes months of practice and persistence (to achieve prolonged lucid dreams). You're coherent inside ur dream with a heightened state of awareness. This never happened to me while sleepwalking.

I'm not sure about "breakthrough" but do consider this progress. Similar studies have been done since the mid 70's (by Alan Worsley and Keith Hearne). Asking lucid dreamers to perform physical responses while dreaming. I'm not sure we're at the point of having full blown conversations w someone for long periods of time (while ld'ing) though I do find it interesting. Pushing the limit of what we can do. Think of the movie Total Recall. Perhaps someday programming good dreams (or memories). Anyway, I think we still don't understand everything about lucid dreaming (or dreams).

In regards to "conversations with people asleep" (I'll look up link tomm.) supposedly, during sleep our brain shuts down systems responsible for creating memories. We're not playing with a full deck while sleepwalking. We're still in la la land. With lucid dreams its completely different. We can (somewhat) control our surrounding and manipulate things.

Edited by Bed of chaos

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godnodog
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Fascinating, and fun, isn't it? 

yes it can be fun and frustrating, as you still have some weird limitations, I can´t run for example, I just can´t, maybe its because I´m laying on a bed and am "restricted" in movements (I´ve never sleepwalked). Best part is that I can fly nd still have some type of vertigo, now that is fun.
But the very worst part of "lucid dreaming" is that I usually wake up somewhat mentally tired.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, godnodog said:

yes it can be fun and frustrating, as you still have some weird limitations, I can´t run for example, I just can´t, maybe its because I´m laying on a bed and am "restricted" in movements (I´ve never sleepwalked). Best part is that I can fly nd still have some type of vertigo, now that is fun.
But the very worst part of "lucid dreaming" is that I usually wake up somewhat mentally tired.

There is something in your own mind creating tha t limit of not walking. (it could be as simple as not believing you can and thus not being able to) 

Try to identify what it is, and then overcome it in a dream  

ANYTHING is possible in a dream.

Apart from  flying, one cool abilty is to move through any solid object Glass is the easiest .  Thick stone and wood  is harder, and travelling long distances through the earth or rocks or castle walls, takes a lot of practice,  so  that you don't get lost in the darkness. 

Sometimes I find walking in a dream slow and tedious (but not tiring) I can walk 30-50 miles in a dream without feeling bodily weary.   if i get bored I just lift off and fly. but sometimes walking is a part of the journey, where you meet interesting characters and have different adventures 

I also constructed portals and tunnels in my dreamscape representations of my home town and state  so that i could drive a 400 mile trip in an hour(subjective dreamtime)  or so. Then i built other portals to link different permanent dreams capes I had created,  so that i could swap from  a science fiction theme, to a western, or a medieval one, or one from  different wars,  without having to wake up.

   Thus my dreamscape included a dozen different, independent parts (pocket universes)  accessible by gates or  portals /wormholes.

Sometimes these were obvious, and sometimes hidden eg the one in my haunted  house dreamscape was in a big grandfather clock in the ground hallway  and you had to use the key to wind the clock to establish the portal. (i was 11or 12 at the time and this was in the early  1960s ) 

When I  was younger, maintaining lucidity for several hours while in a dream,   and especially flying for very long distances, (eg around the world or from Australia to Canada) required a lot of concentration and I was tired when i woke up But tha t passed with practice   By my teens I could travel to the centre of the galaxy and explore several planets along the way in one long dream  (I used worm holes created by an ancient civilization to jump from  star to star /system to system, then just flew around  each  system to different planets )  

Edited by Mr Walker

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