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oslove

Do you atheists have a message for mankind?

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Rlyeh
16 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I wonder why he chose Peter  Madsen as an example. I would have thought that he is a pretty obscure person outside Denmark and Sweden.

I don't see what he's got to do with anything.  Oslove seems to be throwing out accusations.

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Crazy Horse
16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

To me its the difference between a spiritual way of living and a materialist way 

A materialist life style usually ends with disappointment, because humans need more than physical things 

A spiritual  life will lead to contentment, purpose, and happiness, even when there are few material comforts 

With the Spiritual Life, one has a solid Foundation on which to build upon.

Whereas, materialistic, non-believing folk has a constantly moving ground to contend with.

The seeker of GOD builds slowly, and with care.

Mindful of any fault.

 

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Xeno-Fish
55 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Whereas, materialistic, non-believing folk has a constantly moving ground to contend with.

See new sights, meet new people. New knowledge, new experiences, stagnation of thought is mental death. 

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

With the Spiritual Life, one has a solid Foundation on which to build upon.

Whereas, materialistic, non-believing folk has a constantly moving ground to contend with.

The seeker of GOD builds slowly, and with care.

Mindful of any fault.

 

I can solve Rubik's Cube, as well as the 2×2×2, 4×4×4, and 5×5×5.

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Crazy Horse your mistake is that assuming atheists are "materialistic folk".   You spend too much time trying to insist you are superior to others based on your assumptions of them, when you actually know nothing and are inferior at interacting with others because of your bad attitude towards them.   You are missing a lot with that plank in your eye.

I think the whole tree is stuck.

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Mr Walker
13 hours ago, glorybebe said:

Boy, is that a twist on words.  Proves my point, doesn't it?

Notice the smiley 

Yes it was a deliberate and humorous twist on words 

However, I had a point  I was making 

Atheism is a disbelief in gods. That is a legitimate philosophy, but it offers nothing else. An atheist must then evolve values ethics and philosophical beliefs. 

So must a theist (often the y just take an existing religious perspective) 

So theists have an understood, and often commonly held,  religious set of values or beliefs to expound.

Atheists must argue for their own .Atheists, should and do propound their  beliefs on things from environmentalism, to global warming, to economic theory, to parenting .   The y just don't have much interest in religious arguments 

I was raised an atheist,  but secular humanist, with my parents declaring and teaching specific values, ideals, ethics etc., based on humanism 

When people believe something, and know it brings benefits to them or their community,  then the y will try to pass it on to children, or others they care about  If the y can they will codify those beliefs in their community's laws, to improve and protect those in their communities. 

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Mr Walker
40 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Crazy Horse your mistake is that assuming atheists are "materialistic folk".   You spend too much time trying to insist you are superior to others based on your assumptions of them, when you actually know nothing and are inferior at interacting with others because of your bad attitude towards them.   You are missing a lot with that plank in your eye.

It is very often true.(but not universally so) 

Not all religious people  are spiritual or non materialistic, either. 

However, crazy horse is talking from  a perspective close to my own 

ie

Its not what is around us which makes us unafraid, happy and content. It is what is with in us 

People have psychological/spiritual needs.  If these are not met by internal fulfilment  eg love, self  respect, self  worth, purpose, sense of place and belonging,  etc., we seek to meet them by things like power control, wealth, prestige etc. 

Its possible to measure which people are" better off"  by using objective, criteria referenced measures, such as physical and psychological well being,  It is also possible to measure what sort of people benefit a community or society by their beliefs values and behaviours, and which weaken it 

Religious belief might not be for you, but it is scientifically demonstrated to bring huge advantages to people with a positive belief system  This is probably a product of evolution. 

So, people shouldn't try to impose it on, you but should point out the benefits, if they care about you at all.

Neither should you or others argue against a belief system which lengthens their life and  significantly improves their physical and psychological health compared to non believers in a similar cohort 

For example, a positive religious belief is highly protective against depression and suicide  although that  protection can be lessened depending on the context of  religion in a society and the form the religion takes. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Your equivocation fallacy has nothing to do with the quote I called bull**** on.

Are you really trying to say materialists are mostly incapable of meeting psychological needs(which you seem to be redefining as spiritual needs)?

 

I  have always defined spiritual as human spiritual needs  (not necessarily religious) I was raised secular humanist and that is all about meeting our spiritual needs without gods.(and about our reltionship with the world and other people) 

   Atheists have spiritual needs as well. They have to evolve ways of meeting those needs, and some do so successfully.

Theists are provided with textbooks on how to live, which provide a spiritual  path (but many religious people are not spiritual, either )

Without care for the human spirit, humans will wither and die.  (Or live unhappily for most of their life)  

I studied psychology from  age 19 to 21 and so I have always seen spiritual as being connected to psychology and human cognition.

Our capability for love creativity destructiveness,  our appreciation of beauty and ugliness, are all aspects of human spirituality, as is our need for love, purpose and respect 

Our physical needs  are connected to our biology.

Our spiritual needs are connected to our psychology, and cognitive processing.  

Its a spectrum.

We need to meet our physical needs or we will die, but once those basic  needs are met the happiest humans are not the wealthiest ones but the ones with a better balance (generally not too poor but not to wealthy) 

It is a mistake to believe thatt wealth or material riches are needed for happiness or contentment.  These are internal constructs, and you  can achieve them, whatever your external environment They only exist in your mind when you create them  

 

In the past,  many people were happy and content living in conditions we would not accept as tolerable today.

eg outside long drop toilets, no hot running water,  no electricity.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Read what you wrote, you said a materialist life style 'usually' ends in disappointment.  Ha, and your evidence for that is Maslow?  Psychological needs, socialization, and self-actualization are no more 'spiritual' than they are 'materialist'.  'Spiritual' needs were added to the pyramid a couple decades later as 'transcendence' needs, which is why your above pyramid doesn't say a thing about 'spiritual' anything.

needs of physiology are physical needs. needs of the human psyche are needs of the human spirit  Humans have both and both must be met 

It is true that a "materialist life usually ends in disappointment"  .  However I was talking about the ends of the spectrum. Most people have a good spiritual element as well as a healthy materialist one 

Depending on materialism, and denying the human spirit,   however, generally ends badly. That  is what  i define as a "materialist  life style"  ie putting material things above your spiritual needs  eg hurting others to become rich, denying others to stay rich, putting wealth above honour, love, duty, etc.   being selfish rather than altruistic.  

I suspect some theists are in denial about this, because the y don't approve of religious belief,  yet it is not a religious question but a spiritual one.

Plenty  of religious people don't have a sense of spirituality  and are materialists.  (Some even use their faith to get rich and powerful ) 

Lots of atheists are strong in spirit ; generous kind, giving, and not materialist  Putting love etc., above material possessions .

ps and why are the physical needs on the pyramid clearly labelled as such and differentiated  from the non physical; and what on earth is transcendence if not a spiritual term   ? :) 

Finally, yes they were added later as psychology came to the realisation (which is actually  just logical common-sense) tha t human's self awareness creates conflicts in our mind, which require cognitive  mechanisms to resolve.

  Those mechanisms involve the human spirit, and are placed at the TOP of the table for good reason.

While not essential to life (as other animals live) , the y are essential to wellbeing, for humans  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Liquid Gardens
6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Its true.  However I was talking about the ends of the spectrum.

That is such a key omission that it does kinda make it 'not true'.  'Usually' means 'more than 50%', so no you were not talking about the 'ends of the spectrum'.

This just kinda turns into another tautology anyway; a theist life style usually ends in disappointment at the ends of the spectrum too, that's what puts them at the end of the spectrum.  Putting your spiritual needs above your material needs (note what is at the base of Maslow's pyramid) excessively is a recipe for disappointment also. 

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Xeno-Fish

The atheist make a point about simply living your life the best you can.

Some of the spiritual ones.

488e779fe6c0cbd6ad177308f4ab72ab.jpg

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Xeno-Fish

I just thought about something. It seems that those who are heavily spiritual might be more miserable than they claim. I mean, if a person has to compensate with an almost fanatic level of belief, what exactly are they missing/hiding from? 

I'm also guessing that it takes an introduction to spirituality/religions to put an idea of god / the divine into people's minds. Of course whatever package this comes in shapes their particular reality. The more time they spend in that belief, the narrower the tunnel becomes till the only thing they see and want to see is confirmation of their beliefs. 

I won't say this is true of all believers. I think a good bit of believers and non-believers simply don't put much thought into another person's view point. With their general interactions being the measure of a person. 

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That is such a key omission that it does kinda make it 'not true'.  'Usually' means 'more than 50%', so no you were not talking about the 'ends of the spectrum'.

This just kinda turns into another tautology anyway; a theist life style usually ends in disappointment at the ends of the spectrum too, that's what puts them at the end of the spectrum.  Putting your spiritual needs above your material needs (note what is at the base of Maslow's pyramid) excessively is a recipe for disappointment also. 

No I was pretty clear (at least in my mind ) 

"Living a material life" means just that; putting material things above nonmaterial.

   I assume you would  see that "living a spiritual life" meant putting aside the material part of living.

So  too,  living a material life means putting aside the spiritual.

 Most people who " live a material life"  don't prosper as well as those who also have a spiritual element. 

Im not sure about the other extreme. Most people need some material comforts yet some humans seem entirely happy and content with the bare minimum  

I am not talking about theists but about spirituality as my original post pointed out. Lots of non theist are spiritual Indeed statistics  show that, while only about 50% of modern people believe in a god (more/less in difernt countries ) over 90% world wide believe in something more than a material  existence ie in something spiritual.

where a person's spiritual needs are MET I've never encountered any  disappointment.

Apart from  survival, (which is why physiological needs form the base)  and a level of comfort,  our material needs are only the servants of our spiritual/psychological ones  ones, eg if you think you need wealth or power,   or a trip around the world, this comes from  an unmet psychological (spiritual)   need 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I just thought about something. It seems that those who are heavily spiritual might be more miserable than they claim. I mean, if a person has to compensate with an almost fanatic level of belief, what exactly are they missing/hiding from? 

I'm also guessing that it takes an introduction to spirituality/religions to put an idea of god / the divine into people's minds. Of course whatever package this comes in shapes their particular reality. The more time they spend in that belief, the narrower the tunnel becomes till the only thing they see and want to see is confirmation of their beliefs. 

I won't say this is true of all believers. I think a good bit of believers and non-believers simply don't put much thought into another person's view point. With their general interactions being the measure of a person. 

but their belief  MAKES them happy and content 

 In those cases, it is the LACK of it which makes them miserable 

On doesn't COPE with what you see as fanatical belief one  embraces it and uses it to  empower you 

I don't cope with my pace maker.  I love it 

While most humans are socialised into the belief of a family or community, just as the y are socialised into all their values, and even their language, every human develops their own sense of spirituality and even god forms before the y are so socialised  It is part of our  evolved cognitive abilty and predispositions   to see agency in things without agency ie to see purpose and design in things which have none  When very young, but even as adults, our minds explain the inexplicable using our understanding of our self  and our own agency. 

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Crazy Horse
21 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Crazy Horse your mistake is that assuming atheists are "materialistic folk".   You spend too much time trying to insist you are superior to others based on your assumptions of them, when you actually know nothing and are inferior at interacting with others because of your bad attitude towards them.   You are missing a lot with that plank in your eye.

If atheistic folk are not materialistic, and they certainly aren't spiritual, then what are they?

And, it is not atheists per se that I am talking about, but the Atheistic Belief.

Please try to realise the difference before starting the next post..."your mistake".

Thank you. 

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Xeno-Fish
11 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If atheistic folk are not materialistic, and they certainly aren't spiritual, then what are they?

And, it is not atheists per se that I am talking about, but the Atheistic Belief.

Please try to realise the difference before starting the next post..."your mistake".

Thank you. 

They are just people who live life. Materialism and spirituality are not everyone's 24/7 focus. Atheism is a stance, not a belief. 

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Crazy Horse
22 hours ago, XenoFish said:

See new sights, meet new people. New knowledge, new experiences, stagnation of thought is mental death. 

No, its not the people who are moving, but the ground beneath them.

GOD in my experience is Essential, Substantial, and Real. Not something that shall let one down.

A Solid Foundation to build a happy and fulfilling life.

It is a constant, thoughtful, mindful, reflective, explorative state of mental awareness, hardly stagnant.

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Crazy Horse
21 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I think the whole tree is stuck.

So judgemental XenoFish...

That's not like you...:P

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Xeno-Fish
2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

No, its not the people who are moving, but the ground beneath them.

GOD in my experience is Essential, Substantial, and Real. Not something that shall let one down.

A Solid Foundation to build a happy and fulfilling life.

It is a constant, thoughtful, mindful, reflective, explorative state of mental awareness, hardly stagnant.

That is only your reality tunnel. You need God and you assume other's "need" your truth.

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Xeno-Fish
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

So judgemental XenoFish...

That's not like you...:P

That's absolutely like me.

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Crazy Horse
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

That is only your reality tunnel. You need God and you assume other's "need" your truth.

Again, what's with all this judgemental stuff?

I have never assumed other folks needing GOD, I have always stated that one may believe whatever one wants to believe, only that there are very real consequences to any thought.

 

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Crazy Horse
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That's absolutely like me.

Well I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

 

 

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Xeno-Fish
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

Again, what's with all this judgemental stuff?

I have never assumed other folks needing GOD, I have always stated that one may believe whatever one wants to believe, only that there are very real consequences to any thought.

 

All you've done is preach at and belittle the atheist. While also tempering it all with what amounts to threats.

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Xeno-Fish
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

Well I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

 

 

No, just an *******.

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