What is God ?

[signs_of_the_times]

Hey onlookerofmayhem,

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

@signs_of_the_times

Thanks for the response.

I agree. But I believe that's part of the problem. He's trying to build up to an "Aha! I've got you! If you agree with that then you have to agree with this!" type of conversation. It's not very productive.

Hmm he is setting a trap. It kinda looks that way but I do like the approach of deductive reasoning.

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

 

No. I can't agree. 

In most cases, yes. But I don't know if that applies to the universe/cosmos.

I'll flip that to the theistic side. 

If god exists (spatially and temporally) that same logic would have to follow for it as well.

"God exists. Therefore god needed to be caused by something separate from itself."

It becomes an issue of infinite regression. One can always ask, "Well, what caused THAT to happen."

This is why some theists place god outside of space and time. But I don't even understand what it would mean for something to exist, but not be somewhere at some point in time.

Just for clarity - in your view there cannot be an infinite regression of causes and there is no existence outside of space time, correct?

If true do you believe there exists a physical thing in space time that was never caused, but had a beginning?

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

 

I don't know. But for me, all that the list would be filled with are things that we know for a fact came from some sort of intelligent (depending on how we define that) sources. For example, cars, watches, spiderwebs or termite mounds. Those types of things only come into existence through the process of something living and intelligent (again depending on our definition) making them. Is a spider or termite using intelligence to accomplish these things? Are humans the only intelligent creators?

But a crystal, take bismuth for example, could be argued to seemingly be designed due to it's structure. Yet we know it's completely naturally occurring.

Same goes for proteins.

They are complex. Made up of amino acids. 

But as far as we know they too occur naturally.

Again I don't know, BUT that list (to me) would be made up of just natural things. Mountains, lightning, dirt or water for examples. Although I guess technically all those things could be made/caused to occur by humans.

I would think a problem with our agreement on these hypothetical lists would be, technically a theist would place literally everything in the "intelligently designed" category.

If god created everything in the cosmos, then it only follows that it designed every bit of it. Everything from sub atomic particles to the billions of galaxies to time and space themselves. Except for itself of course. 

Which leads to the issue of the god itself. 

As I touched on earlier, it still leaves us asking where, when and how did god come into existence.

I didn't want to make a list of things that are designed, but a list of attributes that things can posses that tell us they are designed. Like having a functionality for example.

But I haven't compiled a full list myself. My point is that this would be the logical next step in @oslove's method. If we can compile and agree upon such a list, the next step would be to agree on whether the universe fits the shoe or not.

Edited March 24, 2021 by signs_of_the_times

[onlookerofmayhem]

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

in your view there cannot be an infinite regression of causes

I don't know if there is or could be.

In a linear manner of thinking things have a beginning, a middle and an end.

I do not know if that applies to the universe.

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

there is no existence outside of space time

As I stated in my previous post, I don't understand what it would mean to do so.

How can something exist outside of space and time? In order to say it exists or existed it has to or had to be somewhere at some point in time. Where is outside of space? When is outside of time? Doesn't make much sense to me.

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

do you believe there exists a physical thing in space time that was never caused, but had a beginning?

That doesn't seem to be the case. If something "began" that implies some sort of chain of events had to precede that event in order for it to happen.

But that leaves the question of how did space and time begin to exist and what, if anything, preceded them.

I don't know. 

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

I didn't want to make a list of things that are designed, but a list of attributes that things can posses that tell us they are designed. Like having a functionality for example.

I don't see functionality only necessarily following from designed attributes.

Something has to assign a function to an object.

A rock wasn't designed, but it can function as a hammer.

A stick wasn't designed, but can function as a crutch.

I think it would be tough to make a list of attributes that are only possible by design.

Perhaps you could give a few more examples. 

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

How can something exist outside of space and time? In order to say it exists or existed it has to or had to be somewhere at some point in time. Where is outside of space? When is outside of time? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

What if the default is eternity instead of time?

Then for anything to exist in time something has to exist in eternity first.

Same thing with space. Space exists inside of infinity. Infinity does not exist in space.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Will Do

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

What if the default is eternity instead of time?

Then for anything to exist in time something has to exist in eternity first.

Same thing with space. Space exists inside of infinity. Infinity does not exist in space.

 

 

Everything dies.

[+Sherapy]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:00 PM, psyche101 said:

Everything dies.

The whole dying thing is a b**** for some. As  a caregiver, I see various reactions to the realization of the fact that we all are gonna die. 
 

It is as interesting as it is here, varying degrees of fear shows up in ones belief systems. 
 

My Dad died when I was 3 death has been a given from the get go for me. 

[+Hammerclaw]

The b**** of death is not so much for oneself, but that of loved ones, the grief in their passing we must endure and the long years after, without them. It is that which can not be contemplated with equal equanimity as is that of one's own demise. That is the true sting of death.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

The b**** of death is not so much for oneself, but that of loved ones, the grief in their passing we must endure and the long years after, without them. It is that which can not be contemplated with equal equanimity as is that of one's own demise. That is the true sting of death.

This makes sense when it gets to the point when it’s down to you and there are no kids etc...

 

Or if I am being honest, I have not missed everyone that has passed in my life and I have been grateful for death in some cases too.
 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

Death, just as is life, is a greater teacher, It's lessons and the pains withheld for us, we each learn for ourselves, alone.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[oslove]

How I know God exists by dividing existence into permanent existence and transient existence.

By permanent existence I mean an existence that cannot ever become extinct i.e. not exist anymore, there is only one example of permanent existence, namely, God.

By transient existence I mean an existence that has a beginning and an ending, for example, you and I, we have a beginning with our conception in our mother's womb, and an ending at our death.

How does transient existence lead to the existence of God?

Simple: Because transient existence inevitably implicates the existence of God, the permanent and self-existent agent.

Wherefore, my definition of God is the following: God is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

 

[zep73]

25 minutes ago, oslove said:

How I know God exists by dividing existence into permanent existence and transient existence.

By permanent existence I mean an existence that cannot ever become extinct i.e. not exist anymore, there is only one example of permanent existence, namely, God.

By transient existence I mean an existence that has a beginning and an ending, for example, you and I, we have a beginning with our conception in our mother's womb, and an ending at our death.

How does transient existence lead to the existence of God?

Simple: Because transient existence inevitably implicates the existence of God, the permanent and self-existent agent.

Wherefore, my definition of God is the following: God is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

So, basically, everything sucks, because everything was created by an @sshole? Makes sense.

If you talk to him, tell him I said: Thanks for nothing, @ss for brains!

[+joc]

36 minutes ago, oslove said:

How I know

It's not How you know.  You don't know.  It's How you believe.  Which is perfectly fine.  But you don't know.  Just saying. 

[+Hammerclaw]

59 minutes ago, joc said:

It's not How you know.  You don't know.  It's How you believe.  Which is perfectly fine.  But you don't know.  Just saying. 

Belief is a two-edged sword--it cuts both ways. Do you know the above highlighted, or is that what you believe?

[+joc]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Belief is a two-edged sword--it cuts both ways. Do you know the above highlighted, or is that what you believe?

You are playing word games my friend.  There is knowledge, and there is belief.  No one believes that water freezes at 32F/0C we know that it does.  

I remember a preacher once who was fond of uttering this phrase from the pulpit:  Do you know that you know that you know?  Of course he was talking about the Cross and the Saving Grace thereof.  It really matters not how one phrases belief...you can call a shark a guppy all day long, but at the end of the day it will still bite your foot off.

There is belief and there is truth.  The truth just is.  Belief?  We believe in things we don't know to be true.  If we actually know what the truth is then it is knowledge.

And yes...I know the highlighted quote of mine is true.  So do you! 

[oslove]

Dear colleagues here, thanks for your responses to my OP.

Here is again my definition of God, "God is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

I would like very much to read your definition of God, so that I can learn from you and revise my dewfinition accordingly.

Please try to reduce your definition to as few words as you can manage.

[Tatetopa]

God is the pattern we cannot quite recognize  and the mystery we have not yet explained.

[+Hammerclaw]

6 hours ago, joc said:

You are playing word games my friend.  There is knowledge, and there is belief.  No one believes that water freezes at 32F/0C we know that it does.  

I remember a preacher once who was fond of uttering this phrase from the pulpit:  Do you know that you know that you know?  Of course he was talking about the Cross and the Saving Grace thereof.  It really matters not how one phrases belief...you can call a shark a guppy all day long, but at the end of the day it will still bite your foot off.

There is belief and there is truth.  The truth just is.  Belief?  We believe in things we don't know to be true.  If we actually know what the truth is then it is knowledge.

And yes...I know the highlighted quote of mine is true.  So do you! 

You didn't answer my question. Truth isn't scientific terminology. The term wears many hats. No, I don't. I haven't any empirical knowledge either confirming or denying the statement and neither do you. You simply believe it to be true, as do I. Reciting the Periodic Table or any other scientific facts does not in any way confirm your assumption. If someone showed you a picture of a white house and ask you what color it was, you would, probably, say white. I would say white on the visible side, not making the assumption, how ever reasonable, that it was white on the unseen side instead of another color. 

[oslove]

11 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

God is the pattern we cannot quite recognize  and the mystery we have not yet explained.

Dear friend, are you saying that you just don't know what the word God stands for at all?

Perhaps you might at least be curious, in which case allow me to tell you what the word God stands for from my part, here as follows:

"God is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

Now you can ask me to explain my definition, okay?

[quiXilver]

19 minutes ago, oslove said:

Now you can ask me to explain my definition, okay?

No thanks... I'll pass.

[GoldenWolf]

51 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

God is the pattern we cannot quite recognize  and the mystery we have not yet explained.

A construct of the imagination that only a narcissist could claim to be.

[quiXilver]

1 hour ago, GoldenWolf said:

A construct of the imagination that only a narcissist could claim to be.

Speaking from experience then?

[GoldenWolf]

6 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

Speaking from experience then?

Witnessing a family member claim to be God?  He's also heavy into voodoo.

[+joc]

6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You didn't answer my question. Truth isn't scientific terminology. The term wears many hats. No, I don't. I haven't any empirical knowledge either confirming or denying the statement and neither do you. You simply believe it to be true, as do I. Reciting the Periodic Table or any other scientific facts does not in any way confirm your assumption. If someone showed you a picture of a white house and ask you what color it was, you would, probably, say white. I would say white on the visible side, not making the assumption, how ever reasonable, that it was white on the unseen side instead of another color. 

 I did answer  your question: 

20 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Belief is a two-edged sword--it cuts both ways. Do you know the above highlighted, or is that what you believe?

 

13 hours ago, joc said:

And yes...I know the highlighted quote of mine is true.  So do you! 

You are still playing word games.  I am asking you a question now.  Water freezes at 32F/0C.  Do  you believe that or do you know that to be true?

[+joc]

7 hours ago, oslove said:

Here is again my definition of God, "God is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

I would like very much to read your definition of God, so that I can learn from you and revise my dewfinition accordingly.

God is a concept from the mind of Man.  Your concept is no different.  God is an ideal, an explanation for the unknown.  That is all.

[oslove]

Dear Joc, you say: "God is a concept from the mind of Man.  Your concept is no different.  God is an ideal, an explanation for the unknown.  That is all."

One of the unknowns is where do we come from.

You will say from our parents, but where do our parents come from?

You will say from their parents, then again from their parents, and on and on and on . . .

You cannot in your mind go on and on and on forever, unless you mean we came from nothing, in which case nothing is not literally nothing, but something that is permanently existing because it is self-existent, and from which everything that is transient like you and me, in ultimate summation come from.

And that is God, wherefore I define Him as follows:

God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

 

[+joc]

1 hour ago, oslove said:

You cannot in your mind go on and on and on forever, unless you mean we came from nothing, in which case nothing is not literally nothing, but something that is permanently existing because it is self-existent, and from which everything that is transient like you and me, in ultimate summation come from.

And that is God, wherefore I define Him as follows:

God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient.

Which brings us right back to the same question:

Where did God come from?  

The only adequate explanation is that God came from the mind of Man.  Man created God, in Man's own image.  Man gave God, the omnipotent power that created the Universe feelings of Jealousy, Rage, Hatred, and a Murderous Heart.

If God is not a concept of the mind of Man...then how did God come into existence?  Who or what created God? 

It is and has always been the question.  How does Something come from Nothing?