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docyabut2

What is God ?

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signs_of_the_times
Posted (edited)

Hey onlookerofmayhem,

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

@signs_of_the_times

Thanks for the response.

I agree. But I believe that's part of the problem. He's trying to build up to an "Aha! I've got you! If you agree with that then you have to agree with this!" type of conversation. It's not very productive.

Hmm he is setting a trap. It kinda looks that way but I do like the approach of deductive reasoning.

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

 

No. I can't agree. 

In most cases, yes. But I don't know if that applies to the universe/cosmos.

I'll flip that to the theistic side. 

If god exists (spatially and temporally) that same logic would have to follow for it as well.

"God exists. Therefore god needed to be caused by something separate from itself."

It becomes an issue of infinite regression. One can always ask, "Well, what caused THAT to happen."

This is why some theists place god outside of space and time. But I don't even understand what it would mean for something to exist, but not be somewhere at some point in time.

Just for clarity - in your view there cannot be an infinite regression of causes and there is no existence outside of space time, correct?

If true do you believe there exists a physical thing in space time that was never caused, but had a beginning?

8 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

 

I don't know. But for me, all that the list would be filled with are things that we know for a fact came from some sort of intelligent (depending on how we define that) sources. For example, cars, watches, spiderwebs or termite mounds. Those types of things only come into existence through the process of something living and intelligent (again depending on our definition) making them. Is a spider or termite using intelligence to accomplish these things? Are humans the only intelligent creators?

But a crystal, take bismuth for example, could be argued to seemingly be designed due to it's structure. Yet we know it's completely naturally occurring.

Same goes for proteins.

They are complex. Made up of amino acids. 

But as far as we know they too occur naturally.

Again I don't know, BUT that list (to me) would be made up of just natural things. Mountains, lightning, dirt or water for examples. Although I guess technically all those things could be made/caused to occur by humans.

I would think a problem with our agreement on these hypothetical lists would be, technically a theist would place literally everything in the "intelligently designed" category.

If god created everything in the cosmos, then it only follows that it designed every bit of it. Everything from sub atomic particles to the billions of galaxies to time and space themselves. Except for itself of course. 

Which leads to the issue of the god itself. 

As I touched on earlier, it still leaves us asking where, when and how did god come into existence.

I didn't want to make a list of things that are designed, but a list of attributes that things can posses that tell us they are designed. Like having a functionality for example.

But I haven't compiled a full list myself. My point is that this would be the logical next step in @oslove's method. If we can compile and agree upon such a list, the next step would be to agree on whether the universe fits the shoe or not.

Edited by signs_of_the_times

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onlookerofmayhem
8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

in your view there cannot be an infinite regression of causes

I don't know if there is or could be.

In a linear manner of thinking things have a beginning, a middle and an end.

I do not know if that applies to the universe.

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

there is no existence outside of space time

As I stated in my previous post, I don't understand what it would mean to do so.

How can something exist outside of space and time? In order to say it exists or existed it has to or had to be somewhere at some point in time. Where is outside of space? When is outside of time? Doesn't make much sense to me.

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

do you believe there exists a physical thing in space time that was never caused, but had a beginning?

That doesn't seem to be the case. If something "began" that implies some sort of chain of events had to precede that event in order for it to happen.

But that leaves the question of how did space and time begin to exist and what, if anything, preceded them.

I don't know. 

8 hours ago, signs_of_the_times said:

I didn't want to make a list of things that are designed, but a list of attributes that things can posses that tell us they are designed. Like having a functionality for example.

I don't see functionality only necessarily following from designed attributes.

Something has to assign a function to an object.

A rock wasn't designed, but it can function as a hammer.

A stick wasn't designed, but can function as a crutch.

I think it would be tough to make a list of attributes that are only possible by design.

Perhaps you could give a few more examples. 

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Will Do
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

How can something exist outside of space and time? In order to say it exists or existed it has to or had to be somewhere at some point in time. Where is outside of space? When is outside of time? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

What if the default is eternity instead of time?

Then for anything to exist in time something has to exist in eternity first.

Same thing with space. Space exists inside of infinity. Infinity does not exist in space.

 

 

Edited by Will Do

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psyche101
7 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

What if the default is eternity instead of time?

Then for anything to exist in time something has to exist in eternity first.

Same thing with space. Space exists inside of infinity. Infinity does not exist in space.

 

 

Everything dies.

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Sherapy
On 3/24/2021 at 5:00 PM, psyche101 said:

Everything dies.

The whole dying thing is a b**** for some. As  a caregiver, I see various reactions to the realization of the fact that we all are gonna die. 
 

It is as interesting as it is here, varying degrees of fear shows up in ones belief systems. 
 

My Dad died when I was 3 death has been a given from the get go for me. 

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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)

The b**** of death is not so much for oneself, but that of loved ones, the grief in their passing we must endure and the long years after, without them. It is that which can not be contemplated with equal equanimity as is that of one's own demise. That is the true sting of death.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

The b**** of death is not so much for oneself, but that of loved ones, the grief in their passing we must endure and the long years after, without them. It is that which can not be contemplated with equal equanimity as is that of one's own demise. That is the true sting of death.

This makes sense when it gets to the point when it’s down to you and there are no kids etc...

 

Or if I am being honest, I have not missed everyone that has passed in my life and I have been grateful for death in some cases too.
 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)

Death, just as is life, is a greater teacher, It's lessons and the pains withheld for us, we each learn for ourselves, alone.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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