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Manwon Lender

Saudi Crown Prince approved murder

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Manwon Lender

The Biden administration on Friday released a long-secret intelligence report concluding that Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman approved the operation that led to the killing of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/intel-report-finds-saudi-crown-prince-approved-khashoggi-murder/ar-BB1e37TF

Intellegents report released by the Biden Administration 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/intelligence-report-jamal-khashoggi-saudi-arabia/501b6e72-f6c5-42e5-bb3a-1e2eeedfaf30/

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Tatetopa

A delicate and decorous slap to the wrist is in order before we resume business as usual. 

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

A delicate and decorous slap to the wrist is in order before we resume business as usual. 

The sad thing is that your right, it will end being business as usual. It is also sad the previous Administration knew the truth and choose to completely over look it and carry on business as usual.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Tatetopa
Just now, Manwon Lender said:

The sad thing is the previous Administration knew the truth and choose to completely over look it. 

Most of the world had already reached this conclusion.

We  still have troops in the Middle East, maybe we have drawn down some but still a presence.  I don't like them there and would prefer that we get everybody out.  Until them, we have to protect them.  I don't see a way around that.  Maybe somebody does. We didn't pull them out in the last 4 years, will we do it in this 4 years?  Hard to guess.

 

I recognize that some of you folks on here are smarter than me in military matters and geopolitics.   Discussing the issues would be great. 

  

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Most of the world had already reached this conclusion.

We  still have troops in the Middle East, maybe we have drawn down some but still a presence.  I don't like them there and would prefer that we get everybody out.  Until them, we have to protect them.  I don't see a way around that.  Maybe somebody does. We didn't pull them out in the last 4 years, will we do it in this 4 years?  Hard to guess.

 

I recognize that some of you folks on here are smarter than me in military matters and geopolitics.   Discussing the issues would be great. 

  

Like you I would also like to see our Soldiers out of the Middle East. Geopolitics is not my thing, but as far as why they are there, in my opinion it's all about keeping the oil flowing. As far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, I have never trusted them. Especially since 9/11 occurred, in my opinion they are no different then Iran, but it's obvious our government thinks a good relationship with them is important. I suppose we will have to wait and see what actions Biden Administration takes now that they made this an issue and declassified and release proof the Saudi Prince was responsible for the crime. The fact that they did this, in my opinion means our current relationship with them is going to change.

Like you I think a discussion on the subject would be great, I am certain there is much I could learn.

Take Tate

Edited by Manwon Lender

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Tatetopa

Here is hoping for someone with knowledge.

I remember 9/11 hijackers being chiefly from SA.  The old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"  is only true as long as we are in conflict with Iran.  Otherwise,  I don't think the Saudis are our friends.  They are not particularly friendly to our religion or our system of government. 

Over the last couple of decades, they have been using their oil revenues to  buy real estate and power across the globe. As long as oil continues, they will use that wealth.  Same with other oil producing nations.  Iraq can too, Iran is certainly hampered, but they do use oil revenues like ISIS did to fund terrorism and extend their control.

We are congratulating ourselves for being energy independent meaning we produce more oil than we use,  Far better than being a net importer for sure. To my way of thinking though, we are still tied by oil to the fortunes and chances of the Middle East.  If the world price goes up or down, it is reflected in the price we pay for gas at home and which fields in the US are cranked up or shut down,; also which refineries operates at capacity or shut down for maintenance  during a period of low price.

If some portion of countries that do import oil lean more toward alternative power, demand for oil may remain stable or decline, which also affect US prices and the world market.   We will always need oil for petrochemicals whether we use as much for fuel as we do now or not. 

Oil companies have a vested interest in discouraging that as much as cigarette companies had an interest in delaying cancer research.   

I wonder how a move away from petroleum where we can would affect the world situation and also the incredible power of the oil industry in US politics.  I don't expect they are looking out for our citizens best interest or would they demure at sending US troops to protect their overseas concessions.

Just my opinion.  I did not go to pundit school..

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Manwon Lender
26 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Here is hoping for someone with knowledge.

I remember 9/11 hijackers being chiefly from SA.  The old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"  is only true as long as we are in conflict with Iran.  Otherwise,  I don't think the Saudis are our friends.  They are not particularly friendly to our religion or our system of government. 

Over the last couple of decades, they have been using their oil revenues to  buy real estate and power across the globe. As long as oil continues, they will use that wealth.  Same with other oil producing nations.  Iraq can too, Iran is certainly hampered, but they do use oil revenues like ISIS did to fund terrorism and extend their control.

We are congratulating ourselves for being energy independent meaning we produce more oil than we use,  Far better than being a net importer for sure. To my way of thinking though, we are still tied by oil to the fortunes and chances of the Middle East.  If the world price goes up or down, it is reflected in the price we pay for gas at home and which fields in the US are cranked up or shut down,; also which refineries operates at capacity or shut down for maintenance  during a period of low price.

If some portion of countries that do import oil lean more toward alternative power, demand for oil may remain stable or decline, which also affect US prices and the world market.   We will always need oil for petrochemicals whether we use as much for fuel as we do now or not. 

Oil companies have a vested interest in discouraging that as much as cigarette companies had an interest in delaying cancer research.   

I wonder how a move away from petroleum where we can would affect the world situation and also the incredible power of the oil industry in US politics.  I don't expect they are looking out for our citizens best interest or would they demure at sending US troops to protect their overseas concessions.

Just my opinion.  I did not go to pundit school..

I agree with everything you said, and I doubt politics will ever be taken out of the equation. I do think we also are projecting power in the region, at this point I think much of it has to do with Russian expansion and influence in the Middle East. Because of this I doubt our soldiers will be coming home anytime soon, and depending upon the situation I can see us sending more soldiers to certain locations. I think many people over look the fact that having soldiers there isn't just about oil and the war on terror.

 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I think many people over look the fact that having soldiers there isn't just about oil and the war on terror.

I do recall that the previous president was not interested in protecting the Kurds, but he left troops to protect a Syrian Oilfield.  What's up with that?.

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DieChecker

CNBC: State Department to provide more information on actions against Saudi Arabia as U.S. reviews ties.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/27/khashoggi-report-us-to-provide-more-detail-on-actions-against-saudi-arabia-.html

Quote

President Joe Biden said Saturday that his administration would make an announcement about relations with Saudi Arabia Monday.


The White House later clarified that the State Department will provide details on actions already announced Friday.

Wonder what Joe wants to do about it?

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Manwon Lender
46 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I do recall that the previous president was not interested in protecting the Kurds, but he left troops to protect a Syrian Oilfield.  What's up with that?.

It gets back to what we were saying in previous posts about how important the oil is. I am going to leave it at that, I really don't want to bring the past into this conversation if it can be avoided. But, I will say the US has a bad habit of abandoning allies when they no longer serve a needed purpose, and this sad fact has been going on for a long long time.

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Manwon Lender
43 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

CNBC: State Department to provide more information on actions against Saudi Arabia as U.S. reviews ties.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/27/khashoggi-report-us-to-provide-more-detail-on-actions-against-saudi-arabia-.html

Wonder what Joe wants to do about it?

That's the real question, and only time will tell. After declassifing intelligence from 2018 after the murder and openly blaming the Crown Prince he had better do something substantial. If it were up to me the actions taken would be serious.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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and then
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

CNBC: State Department to provide more information on actions against Saudi Arabia as U.S. reviews ties.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/27/khashoggi-report-us-to-provide-more-detail-on-actions-against-saudi-arabia-.html

Wonder what Joe wants to do about it?

His handlers will have to tell him so he can try to tell us.  It's an interesting dynamic the Tan Messiah is crafting.  Leaking official info on Bin Salman may be designed to let the world know that  the U.S. prefers to support Iran's terror ventures in the region.  Frankly, I see no other potential "upside" to publicly trashing a supposed ally.  Everyone knew the kid was settling scores and clearing a path to consolidate his power. 

The fact that this "administration" chose to take a course guaranteed to anger Bin Salman and to warn him, perhaps, that his position globally isn't going to be enhanced by U.S. efforts, points to a new direction.  Since this is the 3rd term for Oby, we can expect Iran to rise and S.A. and Israel to be put on a back burner.

The efforts of the TM in his last term were clearly designed to harm Netanyahu and any coalition he could craft.  Bibi humiliated Obama in public and that isn't something he'll EVER FORGET.  It's comforting to know that such petulant hate often accomplishes more damage than success.  Consider - by propping up the thugs in Tehran, he pushed several Sunni leaders into alliance with Israel.  I'm reasonably sure that this was NOT his expectation.  His hate paved the way for an Israel with a less hostile group of Arab neighbors because they fear Tehran and KNOW that the IDF can really jack them UP if the need arises.  I still chuckle every time I think of that move by the TM...

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, and then said:

His handlers will have to tell him so he can try to tell us.  It's an interesting dynamic the Tan Messiah is crafting.  Leaking official info on Bin Salman may be designed to let the world know that  the U.S. prefers to support Iran's terror ventures in the region.  Frankly, I see no other potential "upside" to publicly trashing a supposed ally.  Everyone knew the kid was settling scores and clearing a path to consolidate his power. 

The fact that this "administration" chose to take a course guaranteed to anger Bin Salman and to warn him, perhaps, that his position globally isn't going to be enhanced by U.S. efforts, points to a new direction.  Since this is the 3rd term for Oby, we can expect Iran to rise and S.A. and Israel to be put on a back burner.

The efforts of the TM in his last term were clearly designed to harm Netanyahu and any coalition he could craft.  Bibi humiliated Obama in public and that isn't something he'll EVER FORGET.  It's comforting to know that such petulant hate often accomplishes more damage than success.  Consider - by propping up the thugs in Tehran, he pushed several Sunni leaders into alliance with Israel.  I'm reasonably sure that this was NOT his expectation.  His hate paved the way for an Israel with a less hostile group of Arab neighbors because they fear Tehran and KNOW that the IDF can really jack them UP if the need arises.  I still chuckle every time I think of that move by the TM...

Are you saying you support the crime the Saudi Prince committed, that covering it up and keeping it that way was the right thing to do?

If so why do you think that is the right way to handle it?

Do you really think the Saudi's were really ever our allies?

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Tatetopa
10 hours ago, and then said:

His handlers will have to tell him so he can try to tell us.  It's an interesting dynamic the Tan Messiah is crafting.  Leaking official info on Bin Salman may be designed to let the world know that  the U.S. prefers to support Iran's terror ventures in the region.  Frankly, I see no other potential "upside" to publicly trashing a supposed ally.  Everyone knew the kid was settling scores and clearing a path to consolidate his power. 

The fact that this "administration" chose to take a course guaranteed to anger Bin Salman and to warn him, perhaps, that his position globally isn't going to be enhanced by U.S. efforts, points to a new direction.  Since this is the 3rd term for Oby, we can expect Iran to rise and S.A. and Israel to be put on a back burner.

The efforts of the TM in his last term were clearly designed to harm Netanyahu and any coalition he could craft.  Bibi humiliated Obama in public and that isn't something he'll EVER FORGET.  It's comforting to know that such petulant hate often accomplishes more damage than success.  Consider - by propping up the thugs in Tehran, he pushed several Sunni leaders into alliance with Israel.  I'm reasonably sure that this was NOT his expectation.  His hate paved the way for an Israel with a less hostile group of Arab neighbors because they fear Tehran and KNOW that the IDF can really jack them UP if the need arises.  I still chuckle every time I think of that move by the TM...

It was indeed a brilliant move by your idol the TM.  He helped the Middle East find common ground grow up.  As a result maybe the US can distance itself from the daily petty squabbles of the region and finally extract ourselves from it all.  I never liked him all that much, but of course I never saw his brilliance until you pointed it out.

 

You have a viewpoint and you can be thoughtful.  Is Saudi Arabia our ally?  Have they ever been?  We get along when we have a common enemy, but they still support terrorism and don't seem to want us to prosper.  Apart from Israel which espouses ideas of Western democracy and culture, is there anybody in the region we can trust?  Would we not be better off cutting them all loose?

 

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odas
6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 Would we not be better off cutting them all loose?

 

Yes. And with them also the US evangelicals who are the biggest warmongers in that region.

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and then
8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I never liked him all that much, but of course I never saw his brilliance until you pointed it out.

Never said the a$$hat was brilliant.  In fact, just the opposite.  He's just another clown who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and while he'd never admit it, he NEVER intended to do anything that might make Israel stronger in their very real struggle against Tehran.  I guess his hate for Bibi got in his eye...

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, and then said:

Never said the a$$hat was brilliant.  In fact, just the opposite.  He's just another clown who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and while he'd never admit it, he NEVER intended to do anything that might make Israel stronger in their very real struggle against Tehran.  I guess his hate for Bibi got in his eye...

Hi andthen.    I was being sarcastic, but no matter.

The real question I have remains.  Apart from Israel which shares a democratic form of government and a lot of western values,  why not just cut the whole region loose?  If we step back and just let things take their course, SA and Iran may just neutralize each other. If we help either side against the other they will emerge stronger, and nobody  in the region is really a friend of America.   JMO.  

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2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

If we step back and just let things take their course, SA and Iran may just neutralize each other.

I'd support that if I wasn't reasonably concerned that the feckless Arabs would wind up being gobbled up by the Iranian Revolution.  Those animals are every bit as evil as the House of Saud and have historically been MUCH better warriors.  So if that happened, what do you suppose their next target would be?  More to the point, once they decide to quietly assemble a nuke or ten, how do you imagine the world will react to their revolutionary zeal?  Until that insane theocracy is dismantled, there will be no chance of peace in the M.E.  Leaving them to sort themselves will leave the winner MUCH stronger and more dangerous.

If "Biden" chooses to re-engage and drop sanctions then I'd support Israel and the Sunni states pre-emptively removing their nuclear infrastructure even if it required low yield nuclear bunker busters.  While they're at it, savaging as many of the IRGC as possible would be nice, as well.  

"when someone tells you they want to kill you, it's best to believe them".  Or, in the parlance of the Israelis - "If someone rises to kill you, kill them first". 

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Tatetopa
8 hours ago, and then said:

If "Biden" chooses to re-engage and drop sanctions then I'd support Israel and the Sunni states pre-emptively removing their nuclear infrastructure even if it required low yield nuclear bunker busters.  While they're at it, savaging as many of the IRGC as possible would be nice, as well.  

OK.  So then it appears that Israel and the Middle East can handle its own problems without us?  Does the US want to be involved and be the world policeman or let local authorities deal with it?  Could we do any better?

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and then
9 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

OK.  So then it appears that Israel and the Middle East can handle its own problems without us?

Of course they CAN... the choice is whether the rest of the world benefits.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect a huge number of nations including half or more of ours, would collectively lose their minds if Israel did what it was FORCED TO DO.  You know it as well.  I have no time for your games, man.  Carry on expounding without my meager input.  

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, and then said:

Of course they CAN... the choice is whether the rest of the world benefits.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect a huge number of nations including half or more of ours, would collectively lose their minds if Israel did what it was FORCED TO DO.  You know it as well.  I have no time for your games, man.  Carry on expounding without my meager input.  

I don't think I am pretending to be an expert, just asking questions. Well, how about just answering that question?  Do you think there is more antipathy for Israel doing something than the US getting involved in a hotter war? Are we going to screech louder if 40-50 US soldiers are killed?   Do you think the EU will jump in and help us.  I'm not trying to trick you, or lead you into some OMB scenario.  But OK, thanks for your input up to this point.

Have a good day.

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