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Bush in Europe to mend relations


Talon

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If i was tony blair i might tell you why ,your better of asking him ,saying that he would tell you any old sh-t like he tells us all 

That comment surprises me warden, I was under the distinct impression you were a Tory, sorry Tony supporter. wink2.gif

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just goes to show ,you cant judge a person by their typing

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'childish'...... its called having a sense of humour. Deal with it.

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Isn't posting my own humor at the bottom of the post dealing with it blink.gif

I just find it hard to understand how a thread this long about current affairs could have no ideas in it dontgetit.gif

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Yeah, you were posting a joke about nuking Europe. But after you told us we were children for knocking Bush.

I don't know how it is in the US, but in the UK we have a long cultural history of knocking unpopular leaders in comical ways.

And its better that this thread go on for so long with us insulting a political leader, than others which have gone on for longer while insulting each other (in general, not you and me).

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And its better that this thread go on for so long with us insulting a political leader, than others which have gone on for longer while insulting each other (in general, not you and me).

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Agreed.

As I stated before, I would like to see improved relations, but I don't think it will happen with Bush as president. Not because Bush doesn't want to, or Europe doesn't want to, but because the ideological differences of the U.S. and Europe are so far apart, especially since Bush has been president.

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I doubt Bush is holding Chiracs hand and begging his forgiveness. I think the scenario is more like this:

"We would like to have you help in Iraq. You have expressed an interest in it. Here is the deal:" and then Bush would instruct Chirac as to what his role in it all might be. Chirac is a much funnier joke than Homer's all by himself. ohmy.gif

Edited by joc
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you know.... I just don't see that happening. Despite what you think Joc, the rest of the world does not bend over and kiss Bush's ***

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Bush to renew ties with Germany

US President George W Bush has arrived in Germany on the latest leg of his European tour aimed at reconciling transatlantic differences.

The president is to meet German leader Gerhard Schroeder to discuss tensions with Iran and reforming Nato.

Mr Schroeder, a fierce critic of the US invasion of Iraq, is expected to stress Germany's support for US-led peacekeeping efforts in Afghanistan.

On Tuesday, Mr Bush won European backing for moves to stabilise Iraq.

At meetings in Brussels, Nato states pledged assistance for the training of Iraqi security forces and the EU proposed a conference to co-ordinate support for the Iraqi government.

Several Nato members will only make small contributions towards training the Iraqi army - France, for instance, will send one officer - but the pledges are nonetheless seen to have symbolic value.

Nato Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said: "We'll have difference of opinion, yes, from time to time.

"But there is a lot more we agree upon, and that is the bottom line."

Conciliatory tone

The German chancellor will receive the US president on Wednesday in the historic city of Mainz, which in 1989 played host to George W Bush's father during his presidency.

Mr Schroeder and Mr Bush are expected to emphasise the ties that bind the US and Germany, playing down divisions which boiled over during the run-up to the Iraq war.

According to BBC correspondent Ray Furlong, Wednesday's visit would have been unimaginable back then, when a German cabinet minister compared the president to Hitler, and US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dismissed the Germans as part of "old Europe".

Relations also soured over Mr Schroeder's re-election in 2002 - many in Washington felt he had achieved it on an anti-American platform.

The tone in Mainz is likely to be more conciliatory, as Germany highlights its contribution to peacekeeping efforts in Afghanistan, where its troops form the bulk of a Nato contingent.

An article by Mr Schroeder in a German newspaper has highlighted the US-German partnership in the "fight against terrorism, against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, against poverty and epidemics such as Aids".

Nato question

However, our correspondent says, ordinary Germans remain deeply sceptical about the Bush administration and Chancellor Schroeder will want to show that he is being listened to.

Mr Schroeder has argued for altering Nato's role and assigning greater political weight to direct talks between the EU and US - a vision not shared by President Bush.

Mr Schroeder is also likely to stress the need for involving Iran in negotiations to curb its nuclear ambitions, instead of reserving the right to use force against it, as the US has done.

French and German proposals to end an arms embargo on China have also irked the US administration.

The US president will meet young German leaders in the afternoon before visiting a US military base in Wiesbaden to stir morale among troops.

He travels to Slovakia on Thursday for a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4289571.stm

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I told you all that chirac would wait untill Bush done a bee one to another countrie and stab him in the back

Iraq wobbler Chirac scuttled George Bush`sfence-mending trip to Europe yesterday by cranking up a row over the future of Nato.

He embraced a german -led plot to ditch the alliance as the backbone of transatlantic relations,in favour of the EuropeanUnion.He also snubbed President bush by speaking French at a dinner ,despite having fluent English.

Diplomats insisted Mr Bush had pulled of a coup by getting all 26 Nato members to contribute e to a 2.5millionprogram to train and equip Iraqsecurity staff.But the clash over nato over-shadowed everything.France and Germany led by chancelor Gerhard Schroeder want defence enshrined in the EU constitution.

Mr Bush said Nato was the `cornerstone`of US-EUROPE relations .Tony Blair agreed it was of `fundamental importance`.

Later Mr Blair tried to allay fears by saying The notion the US is getting ready to attack Iran is rediculous,All options are on the table

source The Scottish Sun

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Bush presses Putin on democracy

US President George W Bush has told Russian President Vladimir Putin of his "concerns" about Russian democracy.

Following talks in the Slovak capital Bratislava, Mr Bush told reporters he had expressed these worries in a "constructive and friendly way".

Mr Bush said they agreed that Iran should not have nuclear weapons.

The US has concerns about Russian nuclear co-operation with Iran. Mr Putin has said there is no evidence that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.

Washington has repeatedly accused Iran of trying to develop nuclear weapons. It is also concerned about Russian arms sales to Syria.

A senior US official speaking to reporters on condition of anonymity, said the summit had not produced any breakthroughs on either issue.

At a joint news conference at Bratislava Castle, the two leaders stressed their close ties and agreed to accelerate efforts by Russia to gain entry to the World Trade Organization.

However, the BBC's Moscow correspondent, Damian Grammaticas, reports that when it comes to the details of the issues they discussed, the two men appear to be on divergent paths.

'Russia chooses democracy'

President Putin told reporters that Russia had chosen democracy "independently", not because of pressure from outside.

"Any return to totalitarianism would be impossible," he said.

But he added that democracy must be adapted to Russian conditions, taking into account "our history and our traditions" - and he said that comparing which of the two countries had more or less democracy was "not the right thing to do".

Mr Bush said: "Democracies always reflect a country's culture and customs and I know that.

"But they have certain things in common. They have rule of law, and protection of minorities, a free press and a viable political opposition."

The meeting with Mr Putin was the final event of a European tour aimed at healing divisions over the Iraq war. Mr Bush is now heading back to Washington.

Before the Bratislava summit began, Russia and the US signed a deal to control the spread of shoulder-fired missiles - seen as a growing threat to civilian aircraft.

They also agreed on better safeguards of nuclear materials.

Concerns on both sides

The US president has been under pressure from some senior US politicians to make it clear to Mr Putin that his friendship with the US is at risk unless he maintains Russian democracy.

A senior administration official told journalists travelling with Mr Bush that Mr Putin had recently told the US president that the Russian people had a history of strong tsars, and that they were accustomed to government playing a strong role in their lives.

The official said President Bush had rejected that notion.

Russian concerns include the increasing US influence in former Soviet republics such as Georgia and Ukraine.

In a speech which correspondents say is likely to have annoyed Russia, Mr Bush addressed Slovaks in a snowy Bratislava square, praising the country's stance as a loyal US ally.

Drawing applause from the crowd, Mr Bush praised the 1989 "Velvet Revolution" that defeated communism in the then Czechoslovakia.

"In recent times, we have witnessed landmark events in the history of liberty: A Rose Revolution in Georgia, an Orange Revolution in Ukraine, and now a Purple Revolution in Iraq," he said, referring to the voters' ink used in Iraq's recent election.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4292807.stm

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Fresh start for US and Germany

By Ray Furlong

BBC correspondent in Mainz, Gemany

For President Bush, the visit to the German city of Mainz is about re-enforcing the message of renewed trans-Atlantic ties that he has already presented in Brussels.

Germany joined France and Russia in opposing the Iraq war in the UN security council.

But this visit is taken as a sign that the relationship with Washington has now improved.

There was a time when a visit to Germany by George Bush seemed unimaginable with one cabinet minister even comparing him to Hitler and Donald Rumsfeld dismissing the Germans as part of old Europe.

But a recent visit to Berlin by the Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice showed that the atmosphere at this meeting was going to be different.

There was much laughter and talk of shared values. Both sides now stress that they are co-operating closely.

"We are now happy we are now in a period of a fresh start", says Karsten Voigt, German Foreign ministry co-ordinator for relations with the US.

"There will be a positive future and the outcome will be that we enlarge the areas where we think alike and even might act alike," he said.

'Prejudices'

Germany has the second largest military contingent in Afghanistan after the Americans and is also helping to train Iraqi security forces.

But ordinary Germans are still deeply sceptical about the Bush administration and Chancellor Schroeder will also want to show he is now being listened to.

"Take Bush's inauguration speech for example, it was a wonderful speech but Germans didn't listen - they only saw it was George Bush," says foreign policy analyst Bernard Meyer.

"If our former president [Richard von] Weizsaecker had made this speech they would have praised him for his wonderful words, but when Bush speaks about freedom no one trusts him. They ask is he preparing for the next war," he said.

Significant policy differences remain over issues like how to deal with Iran or the question of the arms embargo with China.

Mr Schroeder's suggestion of using Nato as a forum for discussing wider strategic issues has also not been welcomed by the White House.

But for President Bush this meeting is a useful complement to early bilateral talks with Jacques Chirac and Tony Blair. It also allows him to visit American troops stationed in Germany.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4290139.stm

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Differences define allies' rhetoric

By Paul Reynolds

World Affairs correspondent, BBC News Website

He came, he saw, but he did not conquer.

Instead, on his visit to Europe, President Bush managed to achieve an uneasy truce.

The White House will be pleased that there were no major rows and that a confident president got his views over without giving too much ground.

For Mr Bush, this visit was about getting over the divisions of the past and projecting his vision of the future - "planting the flag of freedom" around the world, as he puts it.

But the empty streets in the German city of Mainz, which cheered Mr Bush's father as president in 1989, spoke volumes about how this American leader is perceived in parts of old Europe.

He did better in Bratislava, capital of Slovakia. His speech there, sprinkled with his usual references to freedom and liberty - 24 of one and seven of the other - did win applause from the crowd.

This was new Europe after all.

The Europeans appeared unwilling to pick a fight and willing to look forward. They reckon Mr Bush has neither the manpower nor the money to fight another major war so they could accept his overtures with some grace.

Yet they still fear some more limited form of conflict in potential crises ahead.

And underneath the change in tone, which has its importance, there are still differences of view on policies.

And perhaps differences will in future increasingly define transatlantic relations.

The search will always be to narrow them but perhaps they will be the norm.

So what happened to these issues?

IRAQ

Mr Bush's most successful tactic was to side-step this, which was the one, above all others, which had led to such bitterness. He was not put on the hook.

Elections in Iraq helped him to present this not as an American problem so much as an Iraqi success.

The violence though has continued unabated after the election. Even on the last day of his visit, policemen were blown up in Tikrit. But it hardly impinged on the tour.

IRAN

The president did offer a concession to the Europeans who are trying to negotiate a permanent end to Iran's programme to enrich uranium. He said he would consider how the US might help these talks. Previously the US had dismissed them. It might still do so in due course. This is one to watch.

MIDDLE EAST

Here again Mr Bush was helped by events - the Palestinian elections and the resumption of contacts with Israel. He did however go out of his way to stress the need for a viable Palestinian state with contiguity on the West Bank. His language here was much stronger than in the past.

CHINA

This issue also has not yet come to the fore. The EU is likely to lift the arms embargo it imposed in 1989 after the suppression of protests. A Code of Conduct covering all arms exports would replace it but the US fears this would be weaker and that China would thereby become better armed in any confrontation with Taiwan which the US is pledged to help.

KYOTO

Nobody mentioned this much. There were some mumblings about technology being the way forward and talk of joint discussions but not much more. Again, Mr Bush managed to avoid a row.

RUSSIA

Russia has been a disappointment to the West in recent years and Mr Bush managed to get the news conference that followed his meeting with Mr Putin in Bratislava to concentrate largely on the meaning of democracy. The Russian president was forced to explain and justify his understanding of the concept, very much on the defensive.

All in all, given the state of play before and after the war in Iraq, things are quite calm.

They might not remain so indefinitely.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4296057.stm

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Lufthansa may sue over Bush visit

German airline Lufthansa may sue federal agencies for damages after the arrival of US president George W Bush disrupted flights.

Lufthansa said that it may lose millions of euros as a result of Air Force One landing at Frankfurt airport.

Flights were affected for an hour on Wednesday morning, double the time that had been expected, leading to cancellations and delays.

Lufthansa accounts for six out of every 10 planes using Frankfurt's airport.

Top dogs

"We are doing research into the possibilities we have," Michael Lamberty, a Lufthansa spokesman told the BBC.

"We are checking if there is action to be taken and in which courts it could be taken."

Mr Lamberty explained that the company did not plan to pursue Germany's air traffic controllers' organisation or the airport authority but wanted instead to see if it was possible to sue the German federal agencies that gave the orders.

The company said that it had to cancel 77 short and medium-distance flights, affecting about 5,000 passengers.

Long-haul travellers were not disrupted.

Central to the problem was that instead of half an hour, the arrival of President Bush on the German leg of his European tour took the best part of an hour, Lufthansa said.

During that time, restrictions were put on planes taxiing, taking off and landing at Frankfurt's Rhein-Main airport.

The extra time taken by President Bush and his entourage meant that there was a knock-on effect that led to significant delays.

Mr Lamberty said that 92 outgoing flights and 86 income flights were delayed by an average of an hour following President Bush's arrival, affecting almost 17,000 passengers.

Despite the problems, Mr Lamberty said that it was not certain that Lufthansa would take legal action.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/business/4292229.stm

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w00t.gifw00t.gif

A huge security operation has been put in place for Mr Bush's five-day trip.

Some 2,500 Belgian police and 250 US secret agents are being deployed in Brussels.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...ope/4282051.stm

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Oh good G.Brish's forces are outnumbered. Maybe the Belgians could grab him and hold him for war crimes w00t.gifw00t.gif

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Talon,

Let me put all of your posts in perspective for you.

The UN was involved in under the table money laundering with Sadaam in the Oil for Food Scandal. France didn't want to go to war with Iraq because they feared losing the lucrative contracts they had with Sadaam. Ditto Germany. Ditto Russia.

These countries had nothing to lose in Aghanistan and so could applaud the Coalition Invasion without consequence.

Bush destroyed not only Sadaams military but also the 'lucrative contracts' these countries were involved in. This is why they hate Bush. Iraq was a major threat to Europe...why would Europe not want the regime gone? Precisely because they feared economic ramifications. Bush knows that Europe's involvment at this stage of the game is necessary and he also knows that it is in Europe's best interest to show a united front with regards to the war on terror....the old saying, 'better late than never' applies here.

Bush has an impressive reputation as governor of Texas in his ability to reach across the aisle and bring both parties together on issues that needed attention. He is doing nothing less than that with these meetings. I hope that someday you will recognize the genious of Bush and realize that the insults that come at him daily by the left are not valid. He is a true, blue guy...doing the hard work no one else would step up to the plate to do. original.gif

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not to mention the amount of money already owed to these countries by Iraq, government opposition to the iraq war was politically and financially motivated.

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Iraq was a major threat to Europe...why would Europe not want the regime gone?

Probably because you've made it a breeding ground for terrorism, right on our doorstep.

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France didn't want to go to war with Iraq because they feared losing the lucrative contracts they had with Sadaam.  Ditto Germany.  Ditto Russia.

And of course the US is as pure as virgin snow when it came to reasons why they entered Iraq... rolleyes.gif

Probably because you've made it a breeding ground for terrorism, right on our doorstep.

Agree with what Tal said on the above post.

Edited by Lottie
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Probably because you've made it a breeding ground for terrorism, right on our doorstep.

of course, thinking of yourselves first wink2.gif I'd be far more concerned about SA, Iran and Syria in terms of the contribution to international terrorism, as it were, the insurgency is fairly localised.

And of course the US is as pure as virgin snow when it came to reasons why they entered Iraq...

even if Oil was the sole motivator for the removal of Saddam

we have this

"remove saddam and make things better for the majority of iraqis and get oil" stance

or the "keep saddam in power and let him continue on his way, whilst making apush for the removal of sanctions thus allowing him to start up full production of banned weaponry, as well as letting him skim money from the oil for food program and screwing over the majority of iraqis to get oil" stance

Edited by bathory
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of course, thinking of yourselves first  I'd be far more concerned about SA, Iran and Syria in terms of the contribution to international terrorism, as it were, the insurgency is fairly localised.

Thinking about ourselves first? Excuse me, but we're the ones with a border with to it. You and the US both have an a continent and an ocean between you and these lunatics. Its you guys who caused this chaos that are the ones only thinking of yourselves, with no thought at to what will happen in the region after you leave.

Evidence: Turkey's (soon to be EU member) border with Iraq

user posted image

And as for SA, Iran and Syria, if you are more concerned about their contribution to international terrorism, then why not ask your country to invade them rather than turning Iraq into one giant terrorist training ground.

Edited by Talon S.
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t? Excuse me, but we're the ones with a border with to it. You and the US both have an a continent and an ocean between you and these lunatics.

we have indonesia a stones throw from us so don't get all uppity at australia:)

I think i should also point out, that Turkey shares a border with the Khurdish controlled north, not many terrorists there.

with no thought at to what will happen in the region after you leave.

if there was no though for what would happen when the coalition left, the coaltion would already have gone...

And as for SA, Iran and Syria, if you are more concerned about their contribution to international terrorism, then why not ask your country to invade them rather than turning Iraq into one giant terrorist training ground.

well Saddam is gone now, after taking out what was a looming threat the US can concentrate on ways of dealing with the bigger fish.

Although i guess, if this were ww2, you'd probably have complained about attacking the germans in africa and italy, because we all know Hitler was in germany/austria (austria if he was on holiday lol)

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we have indonesia a stones throw from us so don't get all uppity at australia:)

You didn't invade Indonesia, you invaded Iraq

I think i should also point out, that Turkey shares a border with the Kurdish controlled north, not many terrorists there.

I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the rest of the world you can travel around your country. I know the stereotype of them living in caves is very popular, but I should tell you, they probably do have access to cars.

As for the Kurds, their not exactly friendly to Turkey since Turkey oppresses them. Which is one of the reasons I object Turkey joining the EU in the first place.

if there was no though for what would happen when the coalition left, the coaltion would already have gone...

Your making assumptions of the coalitions actions over the next 50 years or so, based on the last 3 years? That’s not evidence

well Saddam is gone now, after taking out what was a looming threat the US can concentrate on ways of dealing with the bigger fish.

'Dealing with Bigger fish'? What do you guys actually think your Shia friends in Iraq are going to do when you start pressuring Shia controlled Iran?

And those 'bigger fish' such as Osama now have foot-hold in Iraq because the Coalition took out the Iraq infrastructure (police and military) and let insurgents swarm in.

Although i guess, if this were ww2, you'd probably have complained about attacking the germans in africa and italy, because we all know Hitler was in germany/austria (austria if he was on holiday lol)

Don't be retarded.

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Actually, sticking to your WW2 example. Attacking Saddam would be like the Allies attacking Spain in WW2. We don't like Spain because their fascists and anti-west. However, as long as they stay out of this war we're not going to give them any reason to want to.

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You didn't invade Indonesia, you invaded Iraq

so? this is an ideological war, something you don't seem to understand, these terrorists in iraq aren't there fighting under the Free Saddam banner, they are there under the Islamic Fascists Unite banner.

I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the rest of the world you can travel around your country. I know the stereotype of them living in caves is very popular, but I should tell you, they probably do have access to cars.

and? they would still face a buffer with the khurdish controlled north, i could also point out they could travel to syria or iran...and then get a plane to Canada or Mexico and get into the US...proximity doesn't really mean much.

As for the Kurds, their not exactly friendly to Turkey since Turkey oppresses them. Which is one of the reasons I object Turkey joining the EU in the first place.

So they'll help out what i would imagine they consider a greater enemy to spite turkey?

Your making assumptions of the coalitions actions over the next 50 years or so, based on the last 3 years? That’s not evidence

and your evidence of them having no thought for the region is where? Ass u me

'Dealing with Bigger fish'? What do you guys actually think your Shia friends in Iraq are going to do when you start pressuring Shia controlled Iran?

The International community is already pressuring Iran, we are in no place to guess what may happen simply because we don't know what course of action is going to be taken about Iran. Last i checked, the fundamentalist side wasn't particularly popular in Iran.

And those 'bigger fish' such as Osama now have foot-hold in Iraq because the Coalition took out the Iraq infrastructure (police and military) and let insurgents swarm in.

Osama lol, i do believe the bigger fish are the state sponsors, killing osama isn't going to change anything. Yup insurgents swarmed in...the majority of the insurgency are bathists, with a smaller sample being islamist nutjobs. I am unaware of the state of the iraqi police force and army prior to their disbanding (couldn't have been terribly good, and would have been quite full of saddam loyalists)

Don't be retarded.

Actually, sticking to your WW2 example. Attacking Saddam would be like the Allies attacking Spain in WW2. We don't like Spain because their fascists and anti-west. However, as long as they stay out of this war we're not going to give them any reason to want to.

not at all, the fight is ultimately against islamofascism. To do so one would have to remove state sponsors, Saddam being a state sponsor, this gives the US a foothold in the middle east and enables it to apply pressure on the other known state sponsors. Yes its a big plan, and probably played a part in chosing iraq, it would be possible to get the bulk of it done in one term. So no, you are wrong, Iraq is the first stage of something greater

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Its you guys who caused this chaos that are the ones only thinking of yourselves, with no thought at to what will happen in the region after you leave.

QUOTEIraq was a major threat to Europe...why would Europe not want the regime gone?

Probably because you've made it a breeding ground for terrorism, right on our doorstep.

Please! You are more intelligent than your paranoia suggests:

Published on Sunday, February 23, 2003 by the Sunday Herald (Scotland) Revealed: 17 British Firms Armed Saddam with his Weapons by Neil Mackay

SEVENTEEN British companies who supplied Iraq with nuclear, biological, chemical, rocket and conventional weapons technology are to be investigated and could face prosecution following a Sunday Herald investigation.

One of the companies is Inter national Military Services, a part of the Ministry of Defense, which sold rocket technology to Iraq. The companies were named by Iraq in a 12,000 page dossier submitted to the UN in December. The Security Council agreed to US requests to censor 8000 pages -- including sections naming western businesses which aided Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program.

The five permanent members of the security council -- Britain, France, Russia, America and China -- are named as allowing companies to sell weapons technology to Iraq.

Source

Why do you say 'you' when you should actually be saying 'we'.

And it is so easy for you to just overlook the underlying rational for things. You lack common sense Talon. I'm not trying to be mean...but you just don't have a realistic way of looking at the situation which encompasses all of the many different aspects. original.gif

Edited by joc
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