Bush in Europe to mend relations

[Talon]

Why would a student who owes the government £10,000 and is paying off a Master degree which costs the same as my annual income be more hands. How come the excuse 'i am to poor' works for you and not everyone else?

[wunarmdscissor]

before socialism we need capitalism....tue but only to get to a certain point then we realise that capitalism doesnt truly work IE : in truly civilsed societies capatalism just doesnt work.

[Talon]

As you already stated, it takes Capitalism to run Socialism. Socialism would take the Capitalists wealth and redistribute it.

Exactly. Thats what Marx wrote. That Capitalism was the neccessary evil. We've known this since Das Kapital was written, so why are you claiming Socialism can't work when you know that its still to happen?

We became industrialized because of Capitalism…when the Third World is Democratic, then Capitalism will take root, and therefore they too will become industrialized and consequently they will then have ‘something’.

Rather you became instustrial because of resources which capitalism took advantage of. You ignore that most of the Third World was occupied and striped of resources by western capitalist empires. And yet, you've not answered the question of why these insanely rich nations barely help the Third World (and don't bother with figures of how much the west gives, because its nothing to what they are capable of giving)

The flaw in this argument Talon, is thus: the ‘reason’ the wealthy person became that way was because of his hard work.

No, someonelike Bill Gates might have worked for it, but many were born with a silver spoon in their mouths. And why should they gain from their parents wealth, or some talent liking singing while others are born with nothing and never had a chance. And even in the case of Gates, so much money should not be held by a single individual when others starve.

That is about 3 a day. But his Socialist government demands 50% to subsidize Lazy Bob.

You completely ignore that Marx and Communist hate the Lumping Proletariate, Lazy Bob would more likely be thrown into the army or killed by some fringe group; while its the socialist who got Billy, Franky, and Willy the mininuim wage in the first place. Again, you take the words, but you don't understand their meaning.

Where did you acquire this myth? 

Its called Pollution Joc, I know you said in another thread was a Socialist conspiracy to cripple industry or whatever, but trust me, it exists.

[+joc]

in truly civilsed societies capatalism just doesnt work.

America isn't a 'truly civilised society'?!

Its called Pollution Joc, I know you said in another thread was a Socialist conspiracy to cripple industry or whatever, but trust me, it exists.

Did pollution kill the Dinosaurs? Did pollution cause the Ice Age? Then why is it that 'pollution' is being used as the excuse for 'Global Warming' which in and of its self is a myth?

[Talon]

Did pollution kill the Dinosaurs? Did pollution cause the Ice Age? Then why is it that 'pollution' is being used as the excuse for 'Global Warming' which in and of its self is a myth?

No, pollution did not kill the dinosaurs. The dust cloud after the meteor strike did it. The Ice Age was caused by Climite Change cause a shift in the Artic Currents. Industrial pollution is causng the same Climate changes to occur now.

And its not a myth.

[Celumnaz]

this sums up socialism good enough for me, short 12 paragraph and good enough.

http://www.libertarian.to/NewsDta/template....php?art=art432

I'd recommend reading the book, but I think socialists burst into flame if they touch it.

[Talon]

Yeah, but Celumnaz, you've shown time and time again you don't even know what Socialism is, so I really don't care.

[+joc]

And its not a myth.

If it isn't a myth, then why is China exempt from the accords? Surely if pollution is the problem the left says it is, they would want to change the behavior of the largest polluter in the galaxy....and that would be China...not the US.

The only difference between Socialists and Communists is that the Communists will kill you if you disagree with them!

[Talon]

If it isn't a myth, then why is China exempt from the accords?  Surely if pollution is the problem the left says it is, they would want to change the behavior of the largest polluter in the galaxy....and that would be China...not the US.

Actually China isn't completely industrialised enough to cause as much damage as the US, which caused 25%. China will outstrip the US, but only when its Industry gets going as much as the west. And China is in tha accords, however the only way we got it to join was by saying we'd wait until it was industrialised before getting hit by the limitations. At least it puts a future hold on China's pollution. You ignore that kyoto isn't the end all to be all, its the first stage in tackling an issue which of all the western nations, only the US and Austrilia beleive is a 'myth'.

The only difference between Socialists and Communists is that the Communists will kill you if you disagree with them!

Actually the most obvious is the Socialism beleives in a currency-based system, Communism does not. And as for shooting people, thats Stalinism, which actually had more in common with Fascism (a far-right ideology) than communism.

Edited February 28, 2005 by Talon S.

[Celumnaz]

Yeah, but Celumnaz, you've shown time and time again you don't even know what Socialism is, so I really don't care.

Yeah, but Talon S., I know exactly what Socialism is and I don't have the luxury of not caring or the "useful idiots" (mostly students) of the world will let it happen.

[I am me]

I believe our capitalist system is far too unregulated..our tax dollars subsidise Wall Street. That is known as corporate communism joc.  Unless you have insurance then you cant get affordable healthcare...hmm, pay in to the corporate anty  for services? Problem is that both Capitalism and Communism work in theory but without a proper mediator[government] then the crooks take over.

503802[/snapback]

No, government is what makes capitalism not work. Government is the only way a company can become a monopoly. The number one check on capitalism is the people who fuel it. We all buy goods. If we don't want them, then we don't buy them. We ultimately have the power. Government only hinders prosperity. Everyone thinks government is a safe guard, but it isn't. It is in fact the opposite. Regulation kills a free economy. It decreases the quality of life by holding back companies. You don't realize all of the regulations companies have to abide by. So called crooks exist where there is power, that is why most politicians are crooks. Companies get a lot of their power from the government. It is like a "scratch my back and i'll scratch yours" situation. Give me campaign money and I will grant you a monopoly.

Communism is impossible economically because there is no free market to set prices for goods. This was seen with the Soviet Union. The government had to look at other nations with freer markets to decide on what to sell their good for. The same holds true for the demand of the supplies. That is why people waited in long lines for simple things like toilet paper.

[I am me]

Joc, theres a reason capitalism has the word 'capital' in it? Individuals like Bill Gates (sine weren't on Computers) are only in the buisness to make money, they do that by making a computer whose parts and assembly cost £50, work labour cost £5 a hour, and then sell it for £1000, somehow thinking thats an acceptable profit. On the other scale you have people struggling in the miniumuim wage (i.e. the ones working and buying from Gates). Where in all this does Gates actually care about his customers beyond their wallets?

503890[/snapback]

Gates cares about his customers because he created a product that they want. If they did not want it they would not purchase it. That is where the power of capitalism shines. We have the power. We have the choice to buy something we want or to not buy it. Bill Gates created something people want and put a price on it. If people want it they buy it. If the price is too high, then they don't make the purchase. It is that simple.

[I am me]

And for all the people that complain about the rich with all the money and the poor just living out of trash cans.

Yes a free society will have this. It allows people to buy what they want and sell what they want. It is just a simple barter transaction. One person believes his good or service is worth so much money. The other person believes his money is worth the good or service so they trade. If they didn't agree the trade would not take place. That is as free as it gets.

Now, when you have money and you see poor people who have nothing, you can help them if you wish or you can give your money to a charitable organization. Or you can choose to do nothing. People should not be forced to pay for someone else. The key word here is force.

If you feel bad about someone who has less than you, then help them. You wouldn't force everyone else to help them would you? That is what the government does. Rich people are entitled to every cent they have. They can do what ever they wish to with their money because it is their money. Most give to charity because they believe it is the right thing to do. Bill Gates gives a huge amount to charity. I think most people hate the rich because of jealousy, at least that is my personal opinion on the matter.

We are all taught that government is the savior, it keeps us safe and gives us what we need. That in fact it does not do. Poverty levels have increased since the war on poverty, drugs use has increased since the war on drugs, the list goes on.

[Talon]

Yeah, but Talon S., I know exactly what Socialism is and I don't have the luxury of not caring or the "useful idiots" (mostly students) of the world will let it happen.

Those students your calling idiots are the furture docters, politicans, scientists, lawyers (although I hate those guys), teachers and so forth of the world. You might think ill of them, but they are ones who're going to lead the upcomming generation.

Gates cares about his customers because he created a product that they want. If they did not want it they would not purchase it.

You got the second part right, he makes the product for profit, not because he wants to make everyone happy, its helps if people like his product, but it means they spend more.

We have the choice to buy something we want or to not buy it. Bill Gates created something people want and put a price on it. If people want it they buy it. If the price is too high, then they don't make the purchase. It is that simple.

No it isnt, because many things in society are compulsory. Computers for example are fast becoming a way of life, for me as a student, not having a computer would be suicide. There isn't always a choice.

[+joc]

No it isnt, because many things in society are compulsory. Computers for example are fast becoming a way of life, for me as a student, not having a computer would be suicide. There isn't always a choice.

The same with the telephone, the car, etc. They weren't always necessary, but because people wanted them they soon became that way. Your point is what though? Profit is bad? Why else would anyone do anything?

[Talon]

To help other people? To get the best out yourself? Contribute to society? Money isn't the end all to be all.

[+joc]

So I should repair people's sprinkler system for free?

[Talon]

In a communist society you would, and in return government would provide you with all you need (you know, the best place to see a Communist Society is Star Trek's Federation, they're reds through-and-through. In a socialist society you would be paid, but it would be spending-cash, since government would provide your house, welfaire etc for you.

...btw, is that what you do for a living?

[+joc]

That is what I do.

By the way, Star Trek has one thing that we don't...a replicator.

It was the replicator that made the difference.

I'll take Capitalism any day thank you.

[Talon]

By the way, Star Trek has one thing that we don't...a replicator.

It was the replicator that made the difference. 

I meant as an example, I didn't mean a Socialist society would have all their technology, much of which may not be possible.

[+joc]

Nonetheless, the closest thing we have on Earth to a Replicator...is Capitalism.

[Talon]

I don't see how. Capitalism is the ideology of maxising profit at all costs, a replicator is a wall mounted peice or machinary which can form almost anything out of basic supplies of carbon.

[+joc]

Both the replicator and capitalism are means to get what one needs.

[Talon]

To many the resources needed for needs under capitalism are out of reach. The replicator is more like industry, and Socialism and Communism have those too.

[+joc]

To many the resources needed for needs under capitalism are out of reach.

True...and we take care of those unfortunates.

I still don't understand why you hate capitalism. What is wrong with profits? By and far the least are helped along the way. You seem to view Capitalism as a large corporate entity thing with no feelings or worries as long as the profit margin is met. For some corps that is probably true. At any rate...when you finish your schooling..come to America and see how Capitalism works over here. I'll show you around Texas.