Positive Thinking is Overrated

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

 

I was going to link something on defensive pessimism but this quote seems to do the job. 

https://positivepsychology.com/defensive-pessimism/

I'll bring the link.

[pallidin]

I'm positively disturbed by this negative view of positivity, because negativity is positively negative. 

And I'm fairly positive that negativity has a negative influence on positivity.

[spartan max2]

Another thing I find interesting is how positive thinking and optimism is  actually defined in studies. 

I think everyone has sort of a different idea of what positive and negative means. 

https://www.today.com/health/optimists-have-lower-chance-dying-prematurely-disease-t105663

Hold on I'll quote these questions this study used to access it so you all can do it to yourselves.

 

Quote

The researchers analyzed health data from more than 70,000 women who took part in the Nurses’ Health Study. Each woman’s level of optimism was measured in 2004 with the help of the Life Orientation Test-Revised, a standardized scale that asks participants to rate how much they agree with 10 statements.

 

1. In uncertain times, I usually expect the best.

2. It's easy for me to relax.

3. If something goes wrong for me, it will.

4. I'm always optimistic about my future.

5. I enjoy my friends a lot.

6. It's important for me to keep busy.

7. I hardly ever expect things to go my way.

8. I don't get upset too easily.

9. I rarely count on good things happening to me.

10. Overall, I expect more good things to happen to me than bad.

 

The researchers then collected information about the women’s health and behaviors, and monitored any deaths from 2006 to 2012.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by spartan max2

[+ouija ouija]

3 hours ago, joc said:

Okay, as such, I am an expert in the realm of positive thinking.   

Could you explain to us in what sense you are an expert in the realm of positive thinking? Thank you.

3 hours ago, joc said:

Why not?  What is it that you want to do that you think you can't?

Life and my own limitations have got in the way of my doing things I would have liked to do my entire life. Upbringing, education, health, responsibilities, environment, limited financial resources, limited support etc.etc. At any given moment in our lives we are juggling many aspects. Many goals require more focus, time, money etc than we are able to give. 

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Just for myself the phrase "how can I" works better than "I can" because no matter how much I think I can fly, jumping out of a 10 story window won't make it so.

I would go for "Is there a way I can do this, or isn't there?".

2 hours ago, joc said:

The default should be ...I can.   The phrase "How can I", is actually a question.  If we put the question 'before' the phrase..I can...then we are in danger of not thinking of a way how to do something and giving up.   By always positively affirming that we Can do a thing...the default question is then How.

Exactly what I'm talking about...I can fly out of a ten story window!  Next question:  How?  As opposed to: How can I fly out of a ten story window...oh yeah...I can't.

When we say Can...amazing things can happen...How, is just the inevitable next question to that phrase.   We have to put the horse 'in front' of the cart...because without the horse, the cart is pretty useless.

When we say ...I Can...How is the next question!

 

It's a lovely idea, but as I said, for most people 'Life' and their limitations mean that there are many, many things they will never do . . . . . no matter how much they want to.

2 hours ago, joc said:

I will be back to it when I return from work.  Even though my back is killing me and the piriformis muscle on the right side is spasming and I can barely walk...I am still going to work.

Guess why.   That's right, because...I can!  And...I will!

And I will make some money...and I will pay bills...and I will overcome the pain! Because I can! 

Okay, this is positive thinking gone mad! It is sheer foolishness and could well lead to more problems. Overcoming pain is greatly overrated; pain is there for a reason, a warning. A more positive use of your determination would be to find a way of bringing into being a government system that allows it's citizens to comfortably take days off when they truly need it . . . . . without being penalised.

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

This topic is really interesting because it's a hot button topic in psych.

For example here is some research in support of "positive thinking"

https://www-hopkinsmedicine-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-power-of-positive-thinking?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&amp=true&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16152133048980&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hopkinsmedicine.org%2Fhealth%2Fwellness-and-prevention%2Fthe-power-of-positive-thinking

Well I had a look at the link and I wasn't impressed. Equating positive thinking with good health is impossible to evaluate and prove. When I was part way through the article, I got the impression that what the article was trying to do was shut people up by making them feel bad if their thoughts became negative!

[XenoFish]

It's almost like you're supporting my pessimism Ouija.

[moonman]

All I know is overly positive people are perhaps the most annoying people I have to deal with.

[Crazy Horse]

2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

So your second post in this thread and you're already insulting people.

Very positive of you. Not toxic at all.

Hardly insulting though was it?

I was pointing out the fact that there are toxic attitudes on these boards, and therefore, according to the logic of that poster, no one here was being ignorant.

Pointing out unhelpful perceptions, beliefs etc is hardly toxic.

Its helpful.

Or at least it would be if those misguided folk would actually listen without any prejudice, bias, hate, or anger.

[spartan max2]

56 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Well I had a look at the link and I wasn't impressed. Equating positive thinking with good health is impossible to evaluate and prove. When I was part way through the article, I got the impression that what the article was trying to do was shut people up by making them feel bad if their thoughts became negative!

Yeah that's part of what gets contraversal about the positive psych stuff.

It often comes across as blaming people

 

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Hardly insulting though was it?

I was pointing out the fact that there are toxic attitudes on these boards, and therefore, according to the logic of that poster, no one here was being ignorant.

Pointing out unhelpful perceptions, beliefs etc is hardly toxic.

Its helpful.

Or at least it would be if those misguided folk would actually listen without any prejudice, bias, hate, or anger.

Calling everyone of us on UM toxic is not an insult?  K. 

[Crazy Horse]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

Calling everyone of us on UM toxic is not an insult?  K. 

Wow...

And when did I call everyone on UM toxic?

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, joc said:

The default should be ...I can.   The phrase "How can I", is actually a question. 

This is as close as I come to positive thinking.  It started at work with engineering and design tasks and spilled over into my home life.  It has a good degree of success.

I don't envision the final result and consider it accomplished.  I look at the project and wonder, " If this is going to work, what will it look like?  How will it function?  Can I see a regression  from end product to initial steps, sort of a deconstruction into manageable parts?  Maybe it is positive thinking with training wheels, but it seems to work well on things that you might perceive are slightly beyond your current understanding or knowledge.   It could just be a mundane way of personal growth.

As a disclaimer, I have never used it to find the perfect girlfriend, job, dog, or super ability.  The show stopper for many is that my method takes work and engagement. On the benefit side though, apart from the happiness which may or may not come from  the final result; there is a feeling of confidence and accomplishment engendered even with partial failures.

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Calling everyone of us on UM toxic is not an insult?  K. 

Spartan, let's keep focused. You and I both know exactly what's going on and what will happen. 

[spartan max2]

I guess my stance isn't that positive thinking philosophy is bad. In fact I have seen it be pretty beneifical for some people.

My issues is more the idea that it is the solution for everyone. For alot of people it's not the solution and can actually be harmful.

We are all unique individuals with different life expierences. 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I guess my stance isn't that positive thinking philosophy is bad. In fact I have seen it be pretty beneifical for some people.

My issues is more the idea that it is the solution for everyone. For alot of people it's not the solution and can actually be harmful.

We are all unique individuals with different life expierences. 

I can't disagree with that. Some, like myself lean towards pessimism, well defensive pessimism rather than optimism. 

[spartan max2]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I can't disagree with that. Some, like myself lean towards pessimism, well defensive pessimism rather than optimism. 

And based on your life expierences that's probably what is most effective for you.

Trying to force optimism on some people is like taking a cat inside thats been feral outside it's whole life and expecting it to act completely like a kitten born as a house cat. It's not going to happen.  Lol.

Edited March 8, 2021 by spartan max2

[XenoFish]

11 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

And based on your life expierences that's probably what is most effective for you.

It's probably my 'psychic armor' for lack of a better term.

[Tatetopa]

16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I can't disagree with that. Some, like myself lean towards pessimism, well defensive pessimism rather than optimism. 

Seems like a good way to prevent a lot of negative results.  Failure mode analysis is a structured way to ask what could go wrong, how likely is it, and how bad could it be? Then the way to increase the chance of success is eliminate or reduce as many failure modes as you can.

The popular meme has become some character saying  "What could possibly go wrong?" then diving in with both beet and no forethought.

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Seems like a good way to prevent a lot of negative results.  Failure mode analysis is a structured way to ask what could go wrong, how likely is it, and how bad could it be? Then the way to increase the chance of success is eliminate or reduce as many failure modes as you can.

The popular meme has become some character saying  "What could possibly go wrong?" then diving in with both beet and no forethought.

I feel like your engineering self is coming out haha

[XenoFish]

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Seems like a good way to prevent a lot of negative results.  Failure mode analysis is a structured way to ask what could go wrong, how likely is it, and how bad could it be? Then the way to increase the chance of success is eliminate or reduce as many failure modes as you can.

The popular meme has become some character saying  "What could possibly go wrong?" then diving in with both beet and no forethought.

The mindset might be the results of being a machinist for over 20 years.

[Crazy Horse]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Seems like a good way to prevent a lot of negative results.  Failure mode analysis is a structured way to ask what could go wrong, how likely is it, and how bad could it be? Then the way to increase the chance of success is eliminate or reduce as many failure modes as you can.

The popular meme has become some character saying  "What could possibly go wrong?" then diving in with both beet and no forethought.

Risk assessment.

I would call that being wise, definitely not pessimistic or being negative.

A popular meme might be, a fish checking-out a baited hook, thinking of all the things that could go wrong, and then deciding to swim away.

Actually that's probably a GIF.

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/bah-humbug-why-positive-thinking-is-overrated/

“So it seems that as pleasurable as these positive fantasies and daydreams are, and as good they are for exploring various possibilities in our futures, when it comes to implementing these wishes, they are actually really hurtful,” says Oettingen, who has written a book based on her research, Rethinking Positive Thinking.

“This is not only in the physical health domain, but also in psychological health. We find that the more people fantasise about a positive future, the less depressed they are at that moment but the more depressed they get over time.”

What Oettingen’s research shows is that when people are encouraged to daydream about something like landing a fantastic new job, or getting together with someone they have a crush on, they feel like they have already achieved their goal, so they relax. “These positive daydreams sap their energy and we need this energy to implement the dreams,” she says.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90575887/why-looking-on-the-bright-side-is-overrated

So, the author seems to think that feeling that one has achieved their goals, they shall relax, and therefore sap their energy.

This, with all due respect, is pure bunkum.

For one, a relaxed person sees and acts with more measure, clarity, and open-mindedness.

And for two, in this state of being, actually saves energy.

 

[Duke Wellington]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/bah-humbug-why-positive-thinking-is-overrated/

“So it seems that as pleasurable as these positive fantasies and daydreams are, and as good they are for exploring various possibilities in our futures, when it comes to implementing these wishes, they are actually really hurtful,” says Oettingen, who has written a book based on her research, Rethinking Positive Thinking.

“This is not only in the physical health domain, but also in psychological health. We find that the more people fantasise about a positive future, the less depressed they are at that moment but the more depressed they get over time.”

What Oettingen’s research shows is that when people are encouraged to daydream about something like landing a fantastic new job, or getting together with someone they have a crush on, they feel like they have already achieved their goal, so they relax. “These positive daydreams sap their energy and we need this energy to implement the dreams,” she says.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90575887/why-looking-on-the-bright-side-is-overrated

Back when the Challenger Space Shuttle exploded an investigation was performed on NASA.

They found a positive management culture taking risks. Concerns were raised to them about a possible disaster, and they told the engineers to stop being negative. Instead of thinking what can go wrong, focus on what can go right. Have a can-do mentality.

In business the lesson was that negative thinking and positive thinking both undermine evaluating risks properly. The negatives think everything will go wrong and therefore let opportunities pass. The positives blind themselves to what can go wrong and expose the organisation to risk. So leave both negative and positive thinking out of it, and focus on actual facts.

[Crazy Horse]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Back when the Challenger Space Shuttle exploded an investigation was performed on NASA.

They found a positive management culture taking risks. Concerns were raised to them about a possible disaster, and they told the engineers to stop being negative. Instead of thinking what can go wrong, focus on what can go right. Have a can-do mentality.

In business the lesson was that negative thinking and positive thinking both undermine evaluating risks properly. The negatives think everything will go wrong and therefore let opportunities pass. The positives blind themselves to what can go wrong and expose the organisation to risk. So leave both negative and positive thinking out of it, and focus on actual facts.

Well, I would consider my-self a positive kind of person. Always making the best of any given situation.

But, I don't normally ignore potential negative out-comes either, in fact, I would say that because I can look at the situation as it is, and evaluate it there and then, that this actually gives me a greater sense of positivity. Because the possible negative side affects are seen and mitigated to the best of ones ability.

I fix what I can, and there's no need to worry about the rest. 

But, to have the confidence to actually take a good look, an honest look at possible failures, one really needs a positive mindset to feel that they are actually capable of doing the right thing, at the right time, and in the right way.

[Crazy Horse]

"Above Life's turmoil" by James Allan.

This book is about as close to my world-view, and my spiritual views, I have ever seen.

And so, I will say goodbye, I can take a hint, I know when Im not wanted...

And so, I wish you all, without fear or favour, I wish you all the very best.

Bye.

[spartan max2]

24 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

"Above Life's turmoil" by James Allan.

This book is about as close to my world-view, and my spiritual views, I have ever seen.

And so, I will say goodbye, I can take a hint, I know when Im not wanted...

And so, I wish you all, without fear or favour, I wish you all the very best.

Bye.

I don't think it's personal . Threads just go through peaks and lulls.