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Xeno-Fish

Positive Thinking is Overrated

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Xeno-Fish
2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I don't think it's personal

It's personal.

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spartan max2

:hmm:

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the13bats

This was the last thread i was on before crashing and i did ponder it a bit,

I find the article in the OP very subjective to opinion, perspective and painting a big subject with a pinstripe brush, the writer missed the fact in life one size doesnt fit all, not by half.

I see each reply here place his or her perspective on it and im no different, its not the label we put on it that matters its all how each of us deals with the life we live.

This,

8 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Life and my own limitations have got in the way of my doing things I would have liked to do my entire life. Upbringing, education, health, responsibilities, environment, limited financial resources, limited support etc.etc. At any given moment in our lives we are juggling many aspects. Many goals require more focus, time, money etc than we are able to give. 

And,

8 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

It's a lovely idea, but as I said, for most people 'Life' and their limitations mean that there are many, many things they will never do . . . . . no matter how much they want to. :hmm:

Right, what might be a work thru it sore back to one cat might be debilitating to another and no amount of tim robbins, Pollyanna  positive thinking will fix some of lifes issues,  to me a person who makes claims of their 24-7-365 positive thinking removing all negative thoughts magically removed all negatives from life are as fantasy based as some of my own coping technics.

If it works for those people even if i see what they call working as delusions thats fine because its what it means to that person that counts so in that "positive thinking" is wonderful

its certainly not hurting anything, i would question how these people will cope when life does adamantly says "no, you cant " to them, perhaps denial that can happen is part of their coping plan and like i said a bit delusinal and fantasy based, so what?

I do balance being as positive in the moment as can be with my fantasy based day dreams of a better future which do not let me down as i have no expiration dates on my hopes.

I just see all this as different names for each of us trying to get thru life the best we can, what works for me very well might not work for you and vice versa, its not one size fits all.

 

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Xeno-Fish

I think those who try to be positive 24/7 are actually afraid of life's discomforts. So they develop this overbearing form of optimism in order to shield themselves from the world. 

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Xeno-Fish
1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

:hmm:

I'd rather this thread naturally die out than be shut down due to petty squabbling. You know what'll happen if the derailments were to continue. At least get to 10 pages before I give up on this. 

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the13bats
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I think those who try to be positive 24/7 are actually afraid of life's discomforts. So they develop this overbearing form of optimism in order to shield themselves from the world. 

It just rings all as you said Pollyanna and i called it tim robbins to me, it has a bit of delusion in there, what was said about hope for the best plan for the worse seems pretty good.

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joc
14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I think it's more sheer determination than optimism.

Definitely determination.  But I am optimistic, that...if I am determined...and I do my part...the rest will just fall into place...and somehow it just always seems to.  

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joc
11 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Could you explain to us in what sense you are an expert in the realm of positive thinking? Thank you. :)

Because I have been living Napoleon Hill's philosophy that he presented in his book Think and Grow Rich which was originally published in 1937.

I  basically over a number of years memorized the book...at least the philosophy,   I began thinking Positive in 1985...and continue to do so.

11 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Life and my own limitations have got in the way of my doing things I would have liked to do my entire life. Upbringing, education, health, responsibilities, environment, limited financial resources, limited support etc.etc. At any given moment in our lives we are juggling many aspects. Many goals require more focus, time, money etc than we are able to give. 

That is really a mish mash of nothing  particular.   Could you name one thing that you truly desire that you cannot achieve? 

11 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

I would go for "Is there a way I can do this, or isn't there?".

Most people do.   And most people default to...Nope, can't do it.  The reason is because they don't take into action the question how.  How can I do this thing?  I don't really have a clue...so I can't do it.  What I know to be true is that if I say I can...I will find a way.  The answer to the question how may not be immediate but it is the How question that miracles and magic happen.

It's all a matter of knowing how the subconscious works with regards to the conscious mind.  The Subconscious mind has one function...to support whatever the conscious thought of the moment is...good or bad...right or wrong...it doesn't matter...the Subconscious only knows that it must search memory files to find memory that supports the conscious thought.  so when we really start pondering the How question...some really strange thoughts may surface.  That's really what ...thinking outside of the box is.

11 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

It's a lovely idea, but as I said, for most people 'Life' and their limitations mean that there are many, many things they will never do . . . . . no matter how much they want to. :hmm:

Let's face it...most people don't know what they want...and if they could name something, most couldn't begin to construct a plan on how to make it happen.

It isn't a lovely idea.  If you want to achieve that which you desire it is imperative.  And btw...Desire...is the starting point for all achievement.  Tell me what you want and I can show you how to make it happen.

11 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Okay, this is positive thinking gone mad! It is sheer foolishness and could well lead to more problems. Overcoming pain is greatly overrated; pain is there for a reason, a warning. A more positive use of your determination would be to find a way of bringing into being a government system that allows it's citizens to comfortably take days off when they truly need it . . . . . without being penalised. ;)

It's just my normal way of dealing with things.   So, I did go to work.  I did make some money.  I went to the store and bought some Advil...we'll see if that helps...it should because it is an anti-inflammatory.  What you see as foolishness...I see as 'vital to success'.   The government only makes things worse.  One should never put their trust or hope in the government.

 

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joc
12 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Another thing I find interesting is how positive thinking and optimism is  actually defined in studies. 

I think everyone has sort of a different idea of what positive and negative means. 

https://www.today.com/health/optimists-have-lower-chance-dying-prematurely-disease-t105663

Hold on I'll quote these questions this study used to access it so you all can do it to yourselves.

10 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

And based on your life expierences that's probably what is most effective for you.

Trying to force optimism on some people is like taking a cat inside thats been feral outside it's whole life and expecting it to act completely like a kitten born as a house cat. It's not going to happen.  Lol.

Who are these Optimist Police that try to force others to be optimistic?  B)

 

12 hours ago, spartan max2 said:
  Quote

The researchers analyzed health data from more than 70,000 women who took part in the Nurses’ Health Study. Each woman’s level of optimism was measured in 2004 with the help of the Life Orientation Test-Revised, a standardized scale that asks participants to rate how much they agree with 10 statements.

 

1. In uncertain times, I usually expect the best.   In all times, I expect the best.

2. It's easy for me to relax.     I am always relaxed because I never worry...about anything.

3. If something goes wrong for me, it will.    Nothing ever goes wrong for me.

4. I'm always optimistic about my future.    The future doesn't exist.

5. I enjoy my friends a lot.    I don't have any friends.

6. It's important for me to keep busy.   I like sitting doing nothing the best.

7. I hardly ever expect things to go my way.  I know things are going to go my way, and if they don't ...meh...they will eventually.

8. I don't get upset too easily.  I don't get upset at all.

9. I rarely count on good things happening to me.   Good things happen and bad things happen.  We call it life.

10. Overall, I expect more good things to happen to me than bad.  Life is a bumpy road with some smooth parts.  Or it's a smooth road with some bumpy parts.

 

 

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joc
3 hours ago, the13bats said:

to me a person who makes claims of their 24-7-365 positive thinking removing all negative thoughts magically removed all negatives from life are as fantasy based as some of my own coping technics.

Like you said, that's one persons perspective.  To me...I have removed all negative thoughts from my mind.  And there are no negatives in my life.  That isn't fantasy.  That's reality.

I don't worry.  i don't have any stress.  I have no fear.  All because I have removed the negative thoughts from my mind.  But then again, I have been working to remove all negatives from my life since 1985...so...you know what they say, Practice makes Talent. 

To me, Positive Thinking is how we as humans should think.  However...Positive Thinking...those two words...do not mean the same thing to everyone...as you said ...different perspectives.

But for me...the default is I can.   So, before Snowmagedon hit in February...the heater core started leaking in my truck...I soon discovered that it only leaked when the heater was actually running...so...not a big deal since spring is upon us.  But it will probably cost at least $700 to get it replaced...so...I said...    you guessed it   ...I can fix it myself.  I will just find a youtube video and do it myself.  

Yeah, so I found a youtube video...but when I discovered that you have to remove the entire dash board to do that...pffft...hell no, I'm not doing that...no way!

Okay, but the truth is...If I absolutely had to do it myself...and it was imperative that I do so...yeah, I know I could do it.  But some things are just better left to professionals...

I just didn't really have that much desire to tear into my dash.

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joc
15 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Sorry joc. My default is 'how can I' as my job requires me to turn a 2 dimensional drawing into a physical 3d object. I'm a machinist. So how can I make a drawing into a real thing. 

You already know that you can....hey, it's what you do.  And in reality, yeah, I do the same thing.  I seldom ever say to myself...I can do this!  It's always, okay, how can I do this. 

I was really just talking about the steps involved and why.  Because, as this thread is apparently highlighting...there are some people out there who just don't get what Positive thinking is about at all...so...I can...is always the default.  Until I can becomes such a habit that the default then is How can I. 

:tu:

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the13bats
13 minutes ago, joc said:

Like you said, that's one persons perspective.  To me...I have removed all negative thoughts from my mind.  And there are no negatives in my life.  That isn't fantasy.  That's reality.

I don't worry.  i don't have any stress.  I have no fear.  All because I have removed the negative thoughts from my mind.  But then again, I have been working to remove all negatives from my life since 1985...so...you know what they say, Practice makes Talent. 

To me, Positive Thinking is how we as humans should think.  However...Positive Thinking...those two words...do not mean the same thing to everyone...as you said ...different perspectives.

But for me...the default is I can.   So, before Snowmagedon hit in February...the heater core started leaking in my truck...I soon discovered that it only leaked when the heater was actually running...so...not a big deal since spring is upon us.  But it will probably cost at least $700 to get it replaced...so...I said...    you guessed it   ...I can fix it myself.  I will just find a youtube video and do it myself.  

Yeah, so I found a youtube video...but when I discovered that you have to remove the entire dash board to do that...pffft...hell no, I'm not doing that...no way!

Okay, but the truth is...If I absolutely had to do it myself...and it was imperative that I do so...yeah, I know I could do it.  But some things are just better left to professionals...

I just didn't really have that much desire to tear into my dash.

I do not mean this in any derogatory way your reply to spartan #59 is to me a glaring example of the delusinal fantasy world you built and live in and its as fragile as a house of cards, if it works for you i say more power to you.

30 minutes ago, joc said:

3. If something goes wrong for me, it will.    Nothing ever goes wrong for me.

That is one of countless examples you are in fantasyland, a truck heater core leaking is wrong even if somehow you painted it as a good thing,

Like i said if this mindset works for you im all for it.

No need for a long diatribe how you arent in delusion, unless you have a word you like better, too bad more people cant do as you do.

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the13bats

The gear head in me OCD

The heatercore has water flow through it when on heat or on defrost, and likely you have antifreeze in your coolant thing is the heater core will keep rotting until you fix it seems thst sitting coolant speeds it up.

On my 69 the HC went out and compared to pulling the dash to change it in a vette is easy,  since its not needed much in floriduh i bypassed it as mine is fully rotted.

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Xeno-Fish
8 hours ago, the13bats said:

It just rings all as you said Pollyanna and i called it tim robbins to me, it has a bit of delusion in there, what was said about hope for the best plan for the worse seems pretty good.

I think you mean Tony Robbins. A lot of self help/positive thinking advocates have that "you can do anything if you just believe" sales pitch. Sadly this isn't so. There's also that magical thinking of L.O.A. or the secret. Where the sales pitch is basical, something for nothing.

The only way I can say such things can work is to think about finding quarters, then look for them. All the positive thinking in the world won't change anyone's life. Actions are always needed and failures do happen.

 

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the13bats
13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think you mean Tony Robbins. A lot of self help/positive thinking advocates have that "you can do anything if you just believe" sales pitch. Sadly this isn't so. There's also that magical thinking of L.O.A. or the secret. Where the sales pitch is basical, something for nothing.

The only way I can say such things can work is to think about finding quarters, then look for them. All the positive thinking in the world won't change anyone's life. Actions are always needed and failures do happen.

 

Yeah, while i do enjoy tims movies tony was the robbins i meant but you got it :tu:

Shallow hal went a step further and gave tony robbins magical powers,

Um, last time i saw that .25 thing on here way back like 2020 i had it in the back of my mind guess it needed to be up front as i havent found any change out in the world.

 

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Xeno-Fish
15 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Yeah, while i do enjoy tims movies tony was the robbins i meant but you got it :tu:

Shallow hal went a step further and gave tony robbins magical powers,

Um, last time i saw that .25 thing on here way back like 2020 i had it in the back of my mind guess it needed to be up front as i havent found any change out in the world.

 

The .25 cent thing is tricky. I found mostly pennies, nickels, and dimes. It's really a selective attention exercise. 

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ouija ouija

If I could just squeeze in here :). I wonder if chronic negativity and pessimism are an indication that one's soul/spirit is no longer interested in being incarnated? (Speaking from personal experience here). Actually, I don't know why I said 'I wonder' when I do believe this to be true.

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Xeno-Fish
32 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

If I could just squeeze in here :). I wonder if chronic negativity and pessimism are an indication that one's soul/spirit is no longer interested in being incarnated? (Speaking from personal experience here). Actually, I don't know why I said 'I wonder' when I do believe this to be true.

Interesting perspective.

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spartan max2
9 hours ago, joc said:

 

By your answers I think the study would definitely catagorize you as an optimist haha.

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the13bats
13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The .25 cent thing is tricky. I found mostly pennies, nickels, and dimes. It's really a selective attention exercise. 

My mother was an aloof person in her own world, likely some according to my wife who hapoens to have a PhD in the field blanketed her schizophrenic.

So mom from as long as i can remember until she went into the nursing home mailed in every possible contest and sweepstakes that came her way, she was very positive she was going to win something.

I recall stacks of letters going out, anyone she never won anything but it never got her down in her mind it was going to happen.

She made it to 89.

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the13bats
13 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

If I could just squeeze in here :). I wonder if chronic negativity and pessimism are an indication that one's soul/spirit is no longer interested in being incarnated? (Speaking from personal experience here). Actually, I don't know why I said 'I wonder' when I do believe this to be true.

Forgive me if i do not grasp it correctly, i have seen people who were suffering from depression, not happy with life and living to get by until the next day who perhaps were likely tired of being alive.

My buddy john the alcoholic was like that, his day was wake about 2pm drink half a fifth to steady his hands have dinner with mom and dad, he lived at home and head to the dive bar to try to hook up and get wasted.

Near the end he was in his 40s a messy nasty drunk he was angry 18yo hotties say he was older than their dads when he would hit on them.

I belueve john was done living he just wasnt the type to suck a gun barrel.

Is that what you mean or did i miss the boat?

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Xeno-Fish

Maybe I should've become an alcoholic like my father was and his father. 

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ouija ouija
8 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe I should've become an alcoholic like my father was and his father. 

Were they happy and content? If not, it's probably not something worth trying.

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Xeno-Fish
1 minute ago, ouija ouija said:

Were they happy and content? If not, it's probably not something worth trying.

I guess the stupor gave them the illusion of "feeling happy", I mean isn't that what this be positive and happy all the time cult is about? 

I don't drink. I don't smoke. I try to keep myself under strict discipline in order to not fall into those types of traps. I hate medication of any sort. I'm also against any form of hedonism. 

So I don't get to have the chemically induced happiness others do. 

I figure that if I have to think happy thoughts in order to feel good. That feeling is artificially induced. Not naturally occurring. It's just another drug. 

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Xeno-Fish

One of the things I've been considering regarding optimism/positive thinking is that it's based on a mood. It seems that both optimism and positive thinking are presented as a get anything you want. If you're positive/optimistic life is just handed to you. Going with something like the law of attraction (which is goal oriented positive thinking) you visualize, imagine, and feel in regards to what you wish. However the doing of the thing isn't always a positive act. When you do strive to achieve a goal a lot of the times all positive thoughts and feelings go out the window. You don't want to get up early to job. You don't want to work. You don't want to do a lot of things, but those things need doing. You might think to yourself "It'll be nice getting all this done" but the doing can be far from positive. 

I find (perhaps just me) that I do things because of a negative. I hate being fat. I let myself go when I was heavily depressed. I hate the way I look and feel. So I act against those feelings. I do. Which is an inner war, but I still do.

So this makes me think that having a positive fantasy really does sap motivation. Sure thinking that "I can" might start the effort, but how long will it be before that positive emotional fuel burns out? Then you're left with willpower. 

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