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Xeno-Fish

Positive Thinking is Overrated

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the13bats

I dont drink smoke use or take drugs either past an occasional aspirin.

John drank to escape it made him believe he was cute clever dudley moore from the first Arthur but he wasnt he was more barney gumble meets otis with a snide edge.

His mom would say, poor johnny his grand father was an alcoholic so john cant help it that last 5 perhaps 7 years john just gave up in a way.

Im my case i tend to be down and in person im either to my self if really feeling off or doing my best hawkeye from mash bit, it gets me by but when things go wrong i cant fantasize something bad into something good i just have to try to tackle the issue best i can.

All the BS about willpower , mind over matter etc, back to your if you jump out a building thinking you can fly it doesnt matter how strong that thought is without jocs bat suit you will be a splatter.

In the past ive lost friends who when i had panic and couldn't do something with them they claimed to have it even worse but it doesnt stand in their way and shouldnt stand in mine, well somethings no amount of positive thinking mind over matter is going to fix so the best we can do is the best we can and leave pace settings to others.

Thats it, all i have, do the best i can and not knock myself if my best isnt good enough.

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ouija ouija
1 hour ago, the13bats said:

All the BS about willpower, mind over matter etc, back to your if you jump out a building thinking you can fly it doesnt matter how strong that thought is without jocs bat suit you will be a splatter.

In the past ive lost friends who when i had panic and couldn't do something with them they claimed to have it even worse but it doesnt stand in their way and shouldnt stand in mine, well somethings no amount of positive thinking mind over matter is going to fix so the best we can do is the best we can and leave pace settings to others.

Thats it, all i have, do the best i can and not knock myself if my best isnt good enough.

Willpower is something that originally developed for use in short bursts. It's not designed to be maintained all day, every day to keep us from eating too much, eating the wrong foods, drinking excess alcohol, not exercising enough, staying positive and cheerful. And at long last, some doctors are recognising this.

The worst thing you can say to someone having a panic attack is "I have worse attacks than you but I don't let that stop me doing things". Well, matey :angry: you obviously don't have it worse than me or else you wouldn't be doing stuff!! Same as telling someone who is depressed "Oh, buck up! Everyone gets a bit down sometimes". Don't you think that if I was 'a bit down' I would pull myself out of it? :(

I'm sorry that your friends were unable to support you through your panic. I have solved the problem by never going out(well, just once every couple of weeks or so and just in my village), and hardly ever seeing anyone. This works for me because the peace of mind I get from this way of life far outweighs being unable to go anywhere. But I am 68; I wouldn't expect this to work for a younger person.

13bats: your best is plenty good enough! :D (Although, let's not forget that we can't be doing our best all the time!)

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TashaMarie

I would not say I am either a positive or negative person, if I am being honest I think most of my life I have been somewhere in the middle.  I do not feel there is anything wrong with a little negativity.  I also feel that at times when I am feeling low having someone throwing positivity at me and telling me everything will be okay etc isn't what I need and can make me feel worse, just shut up give me a hug, I know it will get better/easier I just need to be allowed to feel how I do.  Obviously this is me it is different for everyone.  

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lightly
Posted (edited)

Ya, me too.  I'm rather neutral . I'm an Observer.    I can be positive , or negative, in my attitude ,or actions.  I can feel Happy, or sad, or afraid, I'm Human!   I guess I might lean toward trying to be a little more positive than negative.   I can think about things that make me happy and peaceful....or I can think about things that make me sad and upset. (sometimes, most of us can't help but do some of that? ).   .   I dunno if positivity is overrated. ...  Negativity is hardly an improvement ?

Edited by lightly
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joc
Posted (edited)
On 3/8/2021 at 10:24 PM, the13bats said:

I do not mean this in any derogatory way your reply to spartan #59 is to me a glaring example of the delusinal fantasy world you built and live in and its as fragile as a house of cards, if it works for you i say more power to you.

On 3/8/2021 at 9:53 PM, joc said:

3. If something goes wrong for me, it will.    Nothing ever goes wrong for me.

That is one of countless examples you are in fantasyland, a truck heater core leaking is wrong even if somehow you painted it as a good thing,

Like i said if this mindset works for you im all for it.

No need for a long diatribe how you arent in delusion, unless you have a word you like better, too bad more people cant do as you do.

You conveniently did not mention these:

7. I hardly ever expect things to go my way.  I know things are going to go my way, and if they don't ...meh...they will eventually.

9. I rarely count on good things happening to me.   Good things happen and bad things happen.  We call it life.

Edited by joc
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joc
16 hours ago, the13bats said:

All the BS about willpower , mind over matter etc, back to your if you jump out a building thinking you can fly it doesnt matter how strong that thought is without jocs bat suit you will be a splatter.

You missed the whole point.  There is a Wing Suit because someone chose to say...I can...and did.  Rather than defaulting to...I can't and NOT doing anything.

I never said Wing Suits was a good idea either.  Many people have died doing base jumps with Wing Suits.  Horrible idea.  Again...the point was someone said...I Can...and did.

I have never said a word about Mind over Matter...except that it is impossible to levitate even a hair off of your head by pure thought.

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joc
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

13bats: your best is plenty good enough! :D (Although, let's not forget that we can't be doing our best all the time!)

Why can't we be doing our best all the time?  All the time...doesn't even exist.  All one has to do is 'their best' in the moment.  Because The Moment is reality.  It is the only thing that is reality.

I think a lot of people don't have a clue what Positive Thinking is.  It is merely being positive instead of negative.  No one said it was easy...in fact...it isn't.  The easy thing to do is to be negative.

Napoleon Hill pointed that out in his book.  He also said that if you ask 100 people what they want most in life...most people will say to be rich.  But only 2 will be able to illustrate a plan on how they intend to become rich.   

Did you know that only about 2% of people have enough income to retire comfortably on?   Hmmmm.

 
Quote

Data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years. Only 25% of new businesses make it to 15 years or more.Feb 28, 2020 link

While they list the reasons why this is true in the website...the bottom, bottom line is because people quit.  They give into ...I can't.  The 25% that succeed
do so for only one reason...they don't give up.
 
Thinking Positive is about Persistence and Determination...and Focusing on whatever desires you do have until they become an unstoppable obsession.  Some may call that fantasy.  But for those of us who are determined, and persistent...it is the reality of our lives...moment to moment.   
Edited by joc

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the13bats
2 hours ago, joc said:

You missed the whole point

As you did from me, i actually greatly admire your approach if it works for you, i still find some of it fantasy or delusinal based but so what if it works for you its great.

However, life isnt once size fits all and no matter what some people do not have the talants others have, your way of tackling life is yours its not to be pushed on others and find faults in them if they do not obtain the results you do.

This thread was about positive thinking being overrated sincei do subscribe that life isnt one size fits all rhen sure for some positive thinking is overrated and for others its underrated.

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TashaMarie
4 hours ago, joc said:

Why can't we be doing our best all the time?  All the time...doesn't even exist.  All one has to do is 'their best' in the moment.  Because The Moment is reality.  It is the only thing that is reality.

I think a lot of people don't have a clue what Positive Thinking is.  It is merely being positive instead of negative.  No one said it was easy...in fact...it isn't.  The easy thing to do is to be negative.

Napoleon Hill pointed that out in his book.  He also said that if you ask 100 people what they want most in life...most people will say to be rich.  But only 2 will be able to illustrate a plan on how they intend to become rich.   

Did you know that only about 2% of people have enough income to retire comfortably on?   Hmmmm.

 
While they list the reasons why this is true in the website...the bottom, bottom line is because people quit.  They give into ...I can't.  The 25% that succeed
do so for only one reason...they don't give up.
 
Thinking Positive is about Persistence and Determination...and Focusing on whatever desires you do have until they become an unstoppable obsession.  Some may call that fantasy.  But for those of us who are determined, and persistent...it is the reality of our lives...moment to moment.   

Not being rude but how come you get to decide what positive thinking is above someone else.  I certainly wouldn't say allowing anything to become an obsession is a good thing but it's all perspective.  

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bee
On 3/9/2021 at 12:47 AM, XenoFish said:

I think those who try to be positive 24/7 are actually afraid of life's discomforts. So they develop this overbearing form of optimism in order to shield themselves from the world. 

 

I think you are right - I made a rather rushed and trite remark on another thread about trying to be happy and positive in the face of doom... something like that - I have wanted to go back to it   - then I saw this thread you started..

On reflection I think developing stoicism (when faced with 'doom') is more what I wanted to say... 

STOICISM | How Epictetus Keeps Calm - (short YT video)

 

 

 

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Xeno-Fish
1 hour ago, bee said:

 

I think you are right - I made a rather rushed and trite remark on another thread about trying to be happy and positive in the face of doom... something like that - I have wanted to go back to it   - then I saw this thread you started..

On reflection I think developing stoicism (when faced with 'doom') is more what I wanted to say... 

STOICISM | How Epictetus Keeps Calm - (short YT video)

 

 

 

I really think we need a massive dose of pessimism at this time. 

https://www.theschooloflife.com/thebookoflife/why-pessimism-is-the-key-to-good-government/

I really think that the self esteem movement screwed a lot of people up. Giving them a false confidence. Real confidence comes at the cost of failure and the willingness to fail. Because through doing a thing you learn. Failure is learning what not to do until you can do it. Though success is never guaranteed.

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Xeno-Fish
7 hours ago, joc said:

Why can't we be doing our best all the time?  All the time...doesn't even exist.  All one has to do is 'their best' in the moment.  Because The Moment is reality.  It is the only thing that is reality.

Doing our best and making our best efforts cause mental and physical burn out. Exhaustion in other words. Even if it's a habit it still drains people. Not everyone is alike.

I think a lot of people don't have a clue what Positive Thinking is.  It is merely being positive instead of negative.  No one said it was easy...in fact...it isn't.  The easy thing to do is to be negative.

Because as a species we are naturally wired to be "negative". We remember the negative experiences better than the good ones. 

Napoleon Hill pointed that out in his book.  He also said that if you ask 100 people what they want most in life...most people will say to be rich.  But only 2 will be able to illustrate a plan on how they intend to become rich.   

That's planning. Not everyone can become rich and a lot of people who consciously think they want to be millionaires don't really want to be.  

Did you know that only about 2% of people have enough income to retire comfortably on?   Hmmmm.

That same 2% eat, sleep, and **** like everyone else. They'll also die. So being rich isn't really important. 

 
While they list the reasons why this is true in the website...the bottom, bottom line is because people quit.  They give into ...I can't.  The 25% that succeed
do so for only one reason...they don't give up.
 
Thinking Positive is about Persistence and Determination...and Focusing on whatever desires you do have until they become an unstoppable obsession.  Some may call that fantasy.  But for those of us who are determined, and persistent...it is the reality of our lives...moment to moment.   

I'd rather people think constructively with balance if they're going to attempt something. Looking at it from all angles and knowing that success isn't 100% guaranteed. Failure will be a part of the process. A positive "can do" attitude can be easily crushed by failure. So if you are fully aware that X, Y, or Z diet might not work. At least when it does go south you can adjust. I've been self-employed for over 20 years, started in 1998. I can't say a positive attitude made that happen. I can say that a "Gotta get this **** done" attitude did. A lot of work regardless of how I felt. 90% of the time I don't think I'll be successful at the first, second, or even third attempt at something. So personally I "Just Do" and I do it the best that I can. 

A positive attitude is a lot like willpower, it'll get you started, pessimism will temper it, and habit will keep it. That is if it is useful/successful. 

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Xeno-Fish

While I'm not against "positive thinking" if done right. I am fully for personal achievements. 

Link

One of the few strategies for success that I've seen to actually work. Focus on systems not goals. Balance is what's needed. 

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joc
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I'd rather people think constructively with balance if they're going to attempt something. Looking at it from all angles and knowing that success isn't 100% guaranteed. Failure will be a part of the process. A positive "can do" attitude can be easily crushed by failure. So if you are fully aware that X, Y, or Z diet might not work. At least when it does go south you can adjust. I've been self-employed for over 20 years, started in 1998. I can't say a positive attitude made that happen. I can say that a "Gotta get this **** done" attitude did. A lot of work regardless of how I felt. 90% of the time I don't think I'll be successful at the first, second, or even third attempt at something. So personally I "Just Do" and I do it the best that I can. 

A positive attitude is a lot like willpower, it'll get you started, pessimism will temper it, and habit will keep it. That is if it is useful/successful. 

Failure does not crush a positive can do attitude.  What crushes a 'can do'  attitude are negatives.  That is why it is so important to remove them from one's vocabulary.  You know x,y,z won't work...but you think a, b, or c might...a really good chance at c .  So that becomes one's plan.  Plan C.  But then an unknown pops up and Plan C isn't going to work either.  That's when most people quit.  But not you...not me...we continue to think positive.  Time to go back to the drawing board.  Something is wrong with the plan.  So, we 'think' about How...and that is when the real Magic happens.  Magic happens with How.  It is the Positive Attitude that keeps us motivated in asking  How until the answer comes and then we go...ah ha!  Thomas Edison painstakingly categorized 10,000 different substances for the filament in his light bulb idea.  He didn't ever say, I've tried 5000 nothing will work, forget the whole thing.  He said...something will work, I can find it, I just have to keep on looking until I do.

Every thought we think is categorized by our brain.  Consider we have two files in our brain..the Can file and the Can't file.  The Subconscious Mind will seek to discover memory files that support the conscious thought.  The subconscious doesn't know true from false...it only knows...m u s t  s u p p o r t  c o n s c i o u s  t h o u g h t.  By removing the negatives from our thought process...it becomes much easier for the subconscious to find supporting information.  When we ask How...the subconscious mind begins searching deep forgotten memory, sometimes combining memories together in an effort to answer that How question.  This is Infinite Intelligence. 

Willpower is nothing more that Focused Desire.  Willpower is not positive thought...it is created by positive thought.  The Little Train That Could (and did).  I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...I knew I could, I knew I could, I knew I could.

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Xeno-Fish

Sorry, but I can't be blindly positive. 

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spartan max2
10 hours ago, joc said:

Napoleon Hill pointed that out in his book.  He also said that if you ask 100 people what they want most in life...most people will say to be rich.  But only 2 will be able to illustrate a plan on how they intend to become rich. 

I think it's more people want to be rich without having to sacrifice anything.

How many nights away from kids, spouse, and friends are people willing to do to achieve that goal? How many weekends, evenings, hobbies skipped. Having alot lower income for a while. Plus some people just enjoy other professions. Only people who own their own business can ever really be rich.

It's more people also want other things. There is finite time in each day and life. So whenever you do one thing you have less time for other things.

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Xeno-Fish
22 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I think it's more people want to be rich without having to sacrifice anything.

How many nights away from kids, spouse, and friends are people willing to do to achieve that goal? How many weekends, evenings, hobbies skipped. Having alot lower income for a while. Plus some people just enjoy other professions. Only people who own their own business can ever really be rich.

It's more people also want other things. There is finite time in each day and life. So whenever you do one thing you have less time for other things.

All those sacrifices can leave you feeling hollow. 

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ouija ouija
1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

I think it's more people want to be rich without having to sacrifice anything.

How many nights away from kids, spouse, and friends are people willing to do to achieve that goal? How many weekends, evenings, hobbies skipped. Having alot lower income for a while. Plus some people just enjoy other professions. Only people who own their own business can ever really be rich.

It's more people also want other things. There is finite time in each day and life. So whenever you do one thing you have less time for other things.

 

51 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

All those sacrifices can leave you feeling hollow. 

Four pages in and I think we have now got to the heart of the matter. Moment to moment, day to day, compromises have to be made, others have to be considered, limited skills rein us in. Positive thinking is a bit of a luxury, really.

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spartan max2
7 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

 

Four pages in and I think we have now got to the heart of the matter. Moment to moment, day to day, compromises have to be made, others have to be considered, limited skills rein us in. Positive thinking is a bit of a luxury, really.

I think it works for some people just not for everyone.

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Xeno-Fish
13 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

 

Four pages in and I think we have now got to the heart of the matter. Moment to moment, day to day, compromises have to be made, others have to be considered, limited skills rein us in. Positive thinking is a bit of a luxury, really.

Might help take the edge off.

6 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I think it works for some people just not for everyone.

Very true.

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Bendy Demon

I tire of the semantics game. There are lots of things I can't do..that's right I CAN'T.

Why? Physical issues, for one AND we cannot do everything. This is called 'reality' we can't do anything or be anything because we are not perfect, life is not perfect and we have to learn to acknowledge that. I cannot become a machinist because I am not mechanically or mathematically inclined. Sure, I could force myself to undergo training then struggle with something I have no measurable proclivity in but in the end I will end up endangering myself and others. it's called reality.

I think we have been duped by all those preachy cartoons and movies perpetuating the idea that anyone can be anything (Yeah..Zootopia reference) and it doesn't always work.

Sometimes you need to learn when to call it quits and go in a different direction and that too can be a part of positive thinking in that you also realize when an idea or goal is untenable. I will use the words 'can't', 'won't', shouldn't' and so on because they are al part of the language and express reality as it is and not as I wish it and I refuse to babble idiotically and claim I can do anything when I clearly cannot.

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joc
On 3/8/2021 at 10:30 PM, the13bats said:

The gear head in me OCD

The heatercore has water flow through it when on heat or on defrost, and likely you have antifreeze in your coolant thing is the heater core will keep rotting until you fix it seems thst sitting coolant speeds it up.

On my 69 the HC went out and compared to pulling the dash to change it in a vette is easy,  since its not needed much in floriduh i bypassed it as mine is fully rotted.

Yeah, I think you're right...so...when I get over the Winterness and back in black...I'll just get someone to put a new one in.  This is an old truck too...418,000 miles.  2000 tacoma...but it runs great and that's all that really matters to me.  But Heat in the winter and AC in the summer is a must.  I went through one summer with no AC and one winter with no heat and both were brutal.

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joc
8 hours ago, Bendy Demon said:

I tire of the semantics game. There are lots of things I can't do..that's right I CAN'T.

Why? Physical issues, for one AND we cannot do everything. This is called 'reality' we can't do anything or be anything because we are not perfect, life is not perfect and we have to learn to acknowledge that. I cannot become a machinist because I am not mechanically or mathematically inclined. Sure, I could force myself to undergo training then struggle with something I have no measurable proclivity in but in the end I will end up endangering myself and others. it's called reality.

I think we have been duped by all those preachy cartoons and movies perpetuating the idea that anyone can be anything (Yeah..Zootopia reference) and it doesn't always work.

Sometimes you need to learn when to call it quits and go in a different direction and that too can be a part of positive thinking in that you also realize when an idea or goal is untenable. I will use the words 'can't', 'won't', shouldn't' and so on because they are al part of the language and express reality as it is and not as I wish it and I refuse to babble idiotically and claim I can do anything when I clearly cannot.

It isn't a semantics game first of all.  The reason that you can't become a mechanic is because you have no desire to be a mechanic.  Desire is the starting point for all achievement.  Before you pause the TV to go to the kitchen and get a beverage...you first have to want the beverage.  Maybe you do but you are too cozy on the couch...but then that chick in the movie opens the fridge and pulls out a Coke...a few scenes later you press pause and go get the beverage.  Then you are back on your cozy couch watching the movie with a beverage of choice in hand.  

That's all it is Bendy.  That's all it is.  You want something...you focus your attention on getting what you want.  And then you go get it.  Physical issues...pfffft...tell it to the late great Stephen Hawking!  

When you say Can't...the default question is Why not...and ANY excuse will do.  When you say Can the default question is How...and that requires thought...and often lots of it.

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joc
13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

While I'm not against "positive thinking" if done right. I am fully for personal achievements. 

Link

One of the few strategies for success that I've seen to actually work. Focus on systems not goals. Balance is what's needed. 

I don't want any systems.  So...I focus on goals.  Like...How am I going to cut back the the ground this mountain of very dead from below zero temperature Saw Grass.  My solution was simple...I tied a nylon string to the top and wrapped and wrapped and wrapped...then got down on my knees with a good old fashioned long blade wood saw and went around sawing until it was done.  Then I wrapped it in a tarp and dragged it to the burn pile.

I am also fully for personal achievements.  

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the13bats
8 minutes ago, joc said:

Yeah, I think you're right...so...when I get over the Winterness and back in black...I'll just get someone to put a new one in.  This is an old truck too...418,000 miles.  2000 tacoma...but it runs great and that's all that really matters to me.  But Heat in the winter and AC in the summer is a must.  I went through one summer with no AC and one winter with no heat and both were brutal.

What part of the country are you in?

My thing is older cars, a 2k is going to have a lot of brittle plastic in the dash it will break its just not a fun job taking it apart, worse heater core i ever changed was my moms PT Looser, not just dash but steering column had to come out,

Here in fl i could live without heat but not without a.c. my old car never had it so ive been putting off the heater core until i intall a.c.

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