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Xeno-Fish

Positive Thinking is Overrated

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Sherapy
On 3/11/2021 at 7:38 PM, Xeno-Fish said:

A system is just the steps you take. Letting the goal come to you. If you focus on steps it removes the feeling of being overwhelmed by the goal. In other words, start walking and focus on the path. You'll get where you're going when you get there. Then again you might detour into something (hopefully) better.

This is a great way to look at goals in a mindful frame. Well said.

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Sherapy
On 3/8/2021 at 2:57 AM, Xeno-Fish said:

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/bah-humbug-why-positive-thinking-is-overrated/

“So it seems that as pleasurable as these positive fantasies and daydreams are, and as good they are for exploring various possibilities in our futures, when it comes to implementing these wishes, they are actually really hurtful,” says Oettingen, who has written a book based on her research, Rethinking Positive Thinking.

“This is not only in the physical health domain, but also in psychological health. We find that the more people fantasise about a positive future, the less depressed they are at that moment but the more depressed they get over time.”

What Oettingen’s research shows is that when people are encouraged to daydream about something like landing a fantastic new job, or getting together with someone they have a crush on, they feel like they have already achieved their goal, so they relax. “These positive daydreams sap their energy and we need this energy to implement the dreams,” she says.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90575887/why-looking-on-the-bright-side-is-overrated

For me, I look at the actuality of the situation and reflect and refine from there. 
 

For ex: My Prince Charming needed to demonstrate loving kindness across the board and an ability to be a team player and have the potential for personal growth. 

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Desertrat56
On 3/8/2021 at 4:31 AM, the13bats said:

Ill have to think about this,

i sure cant say 90% of my daily life is netural, and i dont mean just from my point of view, point of view only goes so far if a good 50 to 75% of your time isnt positive.

i do find myself trying to get thru crap down times just filling my head with pointless happy stuff, its fantasy fodder to get by i dont get worse that it never happens i never really thought it would,

I guess it helps take the edge off in the moment but it doesnt always work.

 

I think there is a difference from doing what you describe and completely ignoring reality until it slaps you in the face positive thinking.    I don't agree with the reasons the articles mention but I do agree that positive thinking is the same kind of trap as attempting to attain perfection.   I have heard people say things like "That is negative and I don't engage with negative..."  which I consider passive aggressive bull*******   accusing someone else of being negative in a negative manner.    I have heard people say things like "I can't fathom what you are going through but I have concern and compassion for you."   A positive way, offering a small amount of compassion.  That is positive thinking, not avoiding what you deign to be "negative".    As for the fantasizing, it can help as long as you remember it is fantasy.    You find yourself in a downward thought spiral that triggers anger or emotional pain and you train yourself to jump off that merry go round by thinking of something that makes you smile, something real, like you kids laughing or the way your dog runs in circles after it's tail, etc.   And I do find it helpful to fantasize about something to get my mind out of a destructive thought loop, like telling myself a story.   

That book The Secret and the theory of affirmations changing your life is weak minded drivel.   You can change your life by changing the way you think but not with constant obsessive thinking about something you want to change, and affirmations only work when you know they are true and don't say them over and over and over programming yourself to never believe them.   The power of mind is real, but it is also very misunderstood and even those who understand still struggle because that is the design we are working within.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think there is a difference from doing what you describe and completely ignoring reality until it slaps you in the face positive thinking.    I don't agree with the reasons the articles mention but I do agree that positive thinking is the same kind of trap as attempting to attain perfection.   I have heard people say things like "That is negative and I don't engage with negative..."  which I consider passive aggressive bull*******   accusing someone else of being negative in a negative manner.    I have heard people say things like "I can't fathom what you are going through but I have concern and compassion for you."   A positive way, offering a small amount of compassion.  That is positive thinking, not avoiding what you deign to be "negative".    As for the fantasizing, it can help as long as you remember it is fantasy.    You find yourself in a downward thought spiral that triggers anger or emotional pain and you train yourself to jump off that merry go round by thinking of something that makes you smile, something real, like you kids laughing or the way your dog runs in circles after it's tail, etc.   And I do find it helpful to fantasize about something to get my mind out of a destructive thought loop, like telling myself a story.   

That book The Secret and the theory of affirmations changing your life is weak minded drivel.   You can change your life by changing the way you think but not with constant obsessive thinking about something you want to change, and affirmations only work when you know they are true and don't say them over and over and over programming yourself to never believe them.   The power of mind is real, but it is also very misunderstood and even those who understand still struggle because that is the design we are working within.

Amen, sista! There are times the right response might be negative, it might be the best fit for the circumstance. In mindfulness, we come to understand that to arm ourselves only with positive thoughts is really a form of defensiveness, and futile, we think we will be safer, better, protected if we only allow positive thoughts, yet it is isolating in a sense and creates a lot of unneeded stress and self delusion as one builds a prison around themselves, a much better approach is trying to develop a compassionate spacious awareness, to explore what is coming up and seek the wisdom not by seeking to repress ones thoughts or feelings but, by allowing and honoring what is and to make room for the aha moments that completely enlighten us towards the best recourse towards adaption. Triggers, negative constructs, defenses, fears, etc. are all door ways to deeper self awareness. Self compassion working with what is not judging what is. The goal is not browbeating negative thoughts and feelings into repressive boxes, but exploring them, it is in this we learn the transparent nature of our thoughts and feelings. There is great freedom in this understanding and a lot less suffering, 
 

Love your posts.

 

 

 

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joc
On 3/22/2021 at 11:06 AM, Horta said:

As they say..."hope for the best, but plan for the worst".

Who  cares  what  they  say?

There is no hope so forget that...hope is a mind game people play with themselves and it is very socially popular.  It's bogus...forget hope.  What does that even mean...Hope for the best?    Plan for the best!    'Plan for the worst'...having back up plans for worst case scenarios is part of risk management.  Risk Management is a function of Positive Thinking.

A word about Hope...

Hope for nothing.  It's a bogus word.  You can change nothing by hoping.  It's kind of like worry...which is kind of like a rocking chair...both give you something to do...but neither really gets you anywhere.  Change that which you can.  It will either rain or it won't.  Hoping it does one or the other is silly.  A plan will either work or it won't.  The better the plan...the more positive thought you put into it...the more likely it is that  it will be successful.  If it doesn't work, it only means one thing...there is something wrong with your plan.  Go back to the beginning and think of some other way to achieve whatever it is you are trying to do.

We don't hope for anything...we change what we can.  We plan for the best...and expect the best!   And we never quit until we are successful!  

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Horta
11 hours ago, joc said:

Who  cares  what  they  say?

There is no hope so forget that...hope is a mind game people play with themselves and it is very socially popular.  It's bogus...forget hope.  What does that even mean...Hope for the best?    Plan for the best!    'Plan for the worst'...having back up plans for worst case scenarios is part of risk management.  Risk Management is a function of Positive Thinking.

A word about Hope...

Hope for nothing.  It's a bogus word.  You can change nothing by hoping.  It's kind of like worry...which is kind of like a rocking chair...both give you something to do...but neither really gets you anywhere.  Change that which you can.  It will either rain or it won't.  Hoping it does one or the other is silly.  A plan will either work or it won't.  The better the plan...the more positive thought you put into it...the more likely it is that  it will be successful.  If it doesn't work, it only means one thing...there is something wrong with your plan.  Go back to the beginning and think of some other way to achieve whatever it is you are trying to do.

We don't hope for anything...we change what we can.  We plan for the best...and expect the best!   And we never quit until we are successful!  

Such a simple little aphorism, yet the meaning seems to have escaped you lol.

It also sounds like you might have taken one of those "self help" gurus charlatans a little to seriously at some stage? The above reply veers to the fanatical.

Hope is a basic human feeling. When people lose all hope, that's when they are far more likely give up. Not you perhaps.

A lot of soldiers approaching Normandy were surely hoping they didn't get machine gunned when the door opened on the landing craft, as they made their way to the beach. The hope, and the fear underlying it, was not only understandable, but very useful. Hope can be a huge source of inspiration and motivation (as can fear).

It doesn't mean you have to get consumed by it, eschew everything else, and just sit back and see if hope changes your life. That would be silly. To view hope only in that context would also be looking at it via a black or white fallacy.

If someone you're fond of takes ill, you wouldn't find yourself hoping they get better? Hope doesn't stop people from doing what they can, it can form a large part of the motivation for helping (if possible). 

I haven't completely given up all hope that climate change (mostly) will eventually lead to the collapse modern civilisation yet (close to giving up on it though). So I still do what I can, and offer support in various ways, among other things. 

I'm not sure I believe you anyway. Probably the only people entirely devoid of the sentiment of "hope" are from the planet Vulcan lol.

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
14 hours ago, joc said:

We don't hope for anything...we change what we can.

How do you determine what to change then and what's your motivation to do it?  You just do things but don't want a specific outcome?  Because if you do things because you want good things to come from it possibly, then you've pretty much defined 'hope'.  You've never played the lottery or ever placed a wager of any kind, never applied for a job you wanted, etc?

I think maybe what you're trying to say is that hope alone is worthless, which except for the benefits of positive thinking is probably true.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, joc said:

Who  cares  what  they  say?

There is no hope so forget that...hope is a mind game people play with themselves and it is very socially popular.  It's bogus...forget hope.  What does that even mean...Hope for the best?    Plan for the best!    'Plan for the worst'...having back up plans for worst case scenarios is part of risk management.  Risk Management is a function of Positive Thinking.

A word about Hope...

Hope for nothing.  It's a bogus word.  You can change nothing by hoping.  It's kind of like worry...which is kind of like a rocking chair...both give you something to do...but neither really gets you anywhere.  Change that which you can.  It will either rain or it won't.  Hoping it does one or the other is silly.  A plan will either work or it won't.  The better the plan...the more positive thought you put into it...the more likely it is that  it will be successful.  If it doesn't work, it only means one thing...there is something wrong with your plan.  Go back to the beginning and think of some other way to achieve whatever it is you are trying to do.

We don't hope for anything...we change what we can.  We plan for the best...and expect the best!   And we never quit until we are successful!  

I can understand your position, and I liked @Horta ‘s posits too. Both of you make sense. it is really easy to use hope as a crutch or get lost in fantasyland. Yet, in some cases, I think if hope is realistic and based on the actuality of the situation, like I hope I am not to late for the appointment, or I hope the traffic is light today, or  I hope Friday gets here quick this week, or I hope we get to go on vacation after we get the Covid green light. These type of things a little hope is a in a pinch kinda self comfort can stave off life’s little stresses and hope can be a viable tool. It is like taking one bite of the gooey chocolate cake as opposed to eating the whole damn thing.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I can understand your position, and I liked @Horta ‘s posits too. Both of you make sense. it is really easy to use hope as a crutch or get lost in fantasyland. Yet, in some cases, I think if hope is realistic and based on the actuality of the situation, like I hope I am not to late for the appointment, or I hope the traffic is light today, or  I hope Friday gets here quick this week, or I hope we get to go on vacation after we get the Covid green light. These type of things a little hope is a in a pinch kinda self comfort can stave off life’s little stresses and hope can be a viable tool. It is like taking one bite of the gooey chocolate cake as opposed to eating the whole damn thing.

Hope is the recognition, in trying circumstances, that there is at least a fifty-fifty chance for a positive outcome, to emotionally bet on the odds. Without hope, Casinos and Racetracks would go out of business. Yes, there are various grades of hope, ranging from near certainty to forlorn hope. Hope springs eternal where ever there is the slightest chance. Some people just like betting on the odds.

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Hope is the recognition, in trying circumstances, that there is at least a fifty-fifty chance for a positive outcome, to emotionally bet on the odds. Without hope, Casinos and Racetracks would go out of business. Yes, there are various grades of hope, ranging from near certainty to forlorn hope. Hope springs eternal where ever there is the slightest chance. Some people just like betting on the odds.

Well said. :wub:

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Horta
12 hours ago, Horta said:

 

I haven't completely given up all hope that climate change (mostly) will eventually lead to the collapse modern civilisation yet (close to giving up on it though). So I still do what I can, and offer support in various ways, among other things. 

 

 

 

ps. That should have read that I haven't given up the hope that we can mitigate the effects of climate change (which is already beginning to happen), to avert an eventual collapse. Anyway, that's for another discussion.

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joc
5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I can understand your position, and I liked @Horta ‘s posits too. Both of you make sense. it is really easy to use hope as a crutch or get lost in fantasyland. Yet, in some cases, I think if hope is realistic and based on the actuality of the situation, like I hope I am not to late for the appointment, or I hope the traffic is light today, or  I hope Friday gets here quick this week, or I hope we get to go on vacation after we get the Covid green light. These type of things a little hope is a in a pinch kinda self comfort can stave off life’s little stresses and hope can be a viable tool. It is like taking one bite of the gooey chocolate cake as opposed to eating the whole damn thing.

I have been completely successful at my number one goal...no stress.  My reality is that...I don't care if I'm late for an appointment or not.  I do my best to get there timely and if other circumstances prevail and I am running late; I have a cell phone and so I always call and let people know I'm running late.

I don't care what the sheep do in traffic...I have my own path and it really doesn't matter what they do or don't do...I always get where I'm going in a timely fashion and with zero stress from the traffic.  And...if I'm running late...mmm hmmm!

I will go on vacation if and when I see it is an affordable and desirable thing to do with respect to the on-goings of my life at the time.  I gave my self the Covid green light early last summer.  So, it doesn't really matter what the current status of said pandemic is.  I'm not playing anyway, so...it doesn't matter.

The reality is that we have no control over red lights, or traffic, or pandemics or vacations or anything else much really.  Friday will come when Friday comes.  And the really great news about Mondays...it's only 4 more days till Friday!  :) 

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joc
33 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Hope is the recognition, in trying circumstances, that there is at least a fifty-fifty chance for a positive outcome, to emotionally bet on the odds. Without hope, Casinos and Racetracks would go out of business. Yes, there are various grades of hope, ranging from near certainty to forlorn hope. Hope springs eternal where ever there is the slightest chance. Some people just like betting on the odds.

You couldn't pay me to even step into a Casino or a Racetrack...so what do I care if they go out of business...I would actually applaud their demise!  I'd rather people have a reality of what actually is and deal with it than a reality of what could be if only my fairy tale wishes come true.  And to that I will add...I love when a plan comes together! 

If there is the slightest chance...then do whatever you can do to increase those odds.  Hope changes nothing.  As @Sherapy already said...it's a personal comfort thing. It changes nothing except how one feels.  But then...anyway the wind blows doesn't really matter to me...

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joc
10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

How do you determine what to change then and what's your motivation to do it?  You just do things but don't want a specific outcome?  Because if you do things because you want good things to come from it possibly, then you've pretty much defined 'hope'.  You've never played the lottery or ever placed a wager of any kind, never applied for a job you wanted, etc?

I think maybe what you're trying to say is that hope alone is worthless, which except for the benefits of positive thinking is probably true.

I have never played the lottery.   I did lose $300 on the dog tracks in my twenties.  And I walked into a casino once...played nickel slots for a while...got bored.  Set down at the black jack table and made one bet for $15 and lost and left and I have no desire to gamble at all.  I thought about rolling all the windows down in my truck and throwing out a twenty just to see if I might get lucky and have it blow back in...but...ah...that old risk assessment thing...nah.

I did apply for a job I wanted and I got it.  Hope had nothing to do with it.  Then when I absolutely had to get the job I applied for...I hoped for nothing...I just called the guy every morning and he hired me.  Persistence and determination are the keys to success...not hope.

Did you ever have anything work out for you the way you wanted just because you hoped it would.  If so, you were lucky...hope changed nothing.

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joc
12 hours ago, Horta said:

If someone you're fond of takes ill, you wouldn't find yourself hoping they get better? Hope doesn't stop people from doing what they can, it can form a large part of the motivation for helping (if possible). 

In that sense I akin Hope with Praying.  If they are going to get better they will.  It's a nice thing to say, Hope you feel better.  But the reality is, you either will feel better or you won't and my hoping one way or the other is irrelevant.

Just clarifying...It's perfectly fine for you and everyone else to hope for the best or whatever you hope for.  I hope your hopes are favorable.  But the bottom line in Physics and Reality is that hope has nothing to do with Positive Thinking.  I am my own guru...no one told me anything about hope...I thought it out for myself.  Just like praying.  I don't pray.  And I don't hope for anything.  If I can change it...I do.  If it is beyond my control...c'est la vie.  Why worry about it.  At the bottom of worry is fear.  At the bottom of Hope is fear.  I have no worries and I hope for nothing and I have no fear.  Consequently...I have no stress.  

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DingoLingo

the power of positive thinking is not over rated.. 

I am positive that I will annoy someone somehow today.. I am positive I will have a drink later this afternoon after I stab myself with a screw driver while installing a UHF radio in my car.. 

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Hammerclaw
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, joc said:

You couldn't pay me to even step into a Casino or a Racetrack...so what do I care if they go out of business...I would actually applaud their demise!  I'd rather people have a reality of what actually is and deal with it than a reality of what could be if only my fairy tale wishes come true.  And to that I will add...I love when a plan comes together! 

If there is the slightest chance...then do whatever you can do to increase those odds.  Hope changes nothing.  As @Sherapy already said...it's a personal comfort thing. It changes nothing except how one feels.  But then...anyway the wind blows doesn't really matter to me...

I don't spend any time worrying and fretting about what other people think, feel and do. It's a hopeless obsession. "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."   BF

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
1 hour ago, joc said:

I have been completely successful at my number one goal...no stress.  My reality is that...I don't care if I'm late for an appointment or not.  I do my best to get there timely and if other circumstances prevail and I am running late; I have a cell phone and so I always call and let people know I'm running late.

I don't care what the sheep do in traffic...I have my own path and it really doesn't matter what they do or don't do...I always get where I'm going in a timely fashion and with zero stress from the traffic.  And...if I'm running late...mmm hmmm!

I will go on vacation if and when I see it is an affordable and desirable thing to do with respect to the on-goings of my life at the time.  I gave my self the Covid green light early last summer.  So, it doesn't really matter what the current status of said pandemic is.  I'm not playing anyway, so...it doesn't matter.

The reality is that we have no control over red lights, or traffic, or pandemics or vacations or anything else much really.  Friday will come when Friday comes.  And the really great news about Mondays...it's only 4 more days till Friday!  :) 

Well said. :wub:

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Horta
5 hours ago, joc said:

In that sense I akin Hope with Praying.  If they are going to get better they will.  It's a nice thing to say, Hope you feel better.  But the reality is, you either will feel better or you won't and my hoping one way or the other is irrelevant.

Just clarifying...It's perfectly fine for you and everyone else to hope for the best or whatever you hope for.  I hope your hopes are favorable.  But the bottom line in Physics and Reality is that hope has nothing to do with Positive Thinking.  I am my own guru...no one told me anything about hope...I thought it out for myself.  Just like praying.  I don't pray.  And I don't hope for anything.  If I can change it...I do.  If it is beyond my control...c'est la vie.  Why worry about it.  At the bottom of worry is fear.  At the bottom of Hope is fear.  I have no worries and I hope for nothing and I have no fear.  Consequently...I have no stress.  

You have no fear? No stress? Never worry about anything? That's starting to sound very much like another regular on these boards lol.

I doubt any human is entirely without fear. Perhaps some try to repress it. I'm not sure why you'd want to be, it's a very important emotion and we have it for a reason. It's only a problem if it becomes a crippling, over riding emotion which might indicate something deeper going on.

A certain manageable level of stress is usually thought to be beneficial also, within reason of course.

As to hope, talk to people who have tried to suicide. There can be a lot of reasons for such depression, but quite often the straw that breaks the camels back is a feeling of helplessness. That leads to a complete loss of hope. They see no way out, nor any hope of one, and give up. Not in every instance perhaps, but it's common and no amount of positive thinking will work at this stage, unless it restores hope. Though sadly such people usually won't confide in anyone.

Not sure where you're going regarding "physics and reality". But physics (and chemistry) underly the processes that will make it a certainty such feelings exist. The reality is we have all felt the set of emotions and thoughts that we describe as "hope". One of the very few sociological benefits of religion is that it offers hope. A false hope in my opinion but, whatever. It's probably better than the Casino. It's only a problem when it's relied on too much, or exclusively.

You seem to be saying that you have effective ways of blocking these feelings out. Not sure that's the way to go either. They're easy to deal with and can be used in a positive way, they can give a sense of optimism and motivate people. IMO they are an important part of what makes us human.

If you've found another way that works, good for you, but I reserve some scepticism about it.

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Liquid Gardens
9 hours ago, joc said:

I did apply for a job I wanted and I got it.  Hope had nothing to do with it. 

Sure it did, you wanted the job. Were you 100% assured of this job, there was no chance you weren't going to get it?  Then another way to phrase that situation is that you applied for the job hoping you'd get it.  If you've never gambled how about asking somebody out on a date?  You do that not hoping that the person will go out with you?  Not sure why one would do it then.  Hope seems to be pretty core to our motivations and thus actions.

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joc
3 hours ago, Horta said:

You have no fear? No stress? Never worry about anything? That's starting to sound very much like another regular on these boards lol.

 I am not all that smart Horta.  This isn't really about me, and I did not mean to make it about me.  It is about Positive Thought process.  As I said in the beginning, I have been studying this  very thing for a long, long time.  I don't know much about a lot of stuff...but I do know about 'thinking'.  I understand your skepticism.  Napoleon Hill explained that at the bottom of most people's worries is fear.  He has a whole chapter on Fear.  There are 7 basic fears..  Fear of criticism, fear of ill health, fear of death, fear of loss of love, fear of poverty, fear of loss of liberty.  If you want to read Napoleons writings about them...  click here

3 hours ago, Horta said:

I doubt any human is entirely without fear. Perhaps some try to repress it. I'm not sure why you'd want to be, it's a very important emotion and we have it for a reason. It's only a problem if it becomes a crippling, over riding emotion which might indicate something deeper going on.

When I say I don't have any fear, actually what I am meaning is that I don't allow fear to occupy a place in my mind.  The seven basic fears are part of our dna memory structure...and you are right...it's probably impossible to completely override them.  I'm not talking about repressing it.  I'm talking about 'overcoming' it through positive thought process. 

Fear can be both a blessing and a curse, depending upon how and when one yields to it or rejects it. ~ Napoleon Hill

3 hours ago, Horta said:

A certain manageable level of stress is usually thought to be beneficial also, within reason of course.

Probably more correct than just stating that I have no stress.  Stress is natural...like when that 'car' comes up behind me doing 90 and swerves around me like I'm just an obstacle in their path...that is very stressful.  But I found a way to overcome most of the anger associated with that...   I hope you get a ticket!  Or...sheriff gonna get you boy! Also, I have a new mantra...something like...I am not wearing a uniform and I am not wearing a gun. Law enforcement is not my job.  It is just a way to 'manage' the stress. But, my main goal in life is to have no stress and for the most part...I don't.  But only because I work so hard at it...not because I'm special or smart because I'm not really that smart.  I am  a genius...ahem...but I'm not all that smart really.:no:

3 hours ago, Horta said:

As to hope, talk to people who have tried to suicide. There can be a lot of reasons for such depression, but quite often the straw that breaks the camels back is a feeling of helplessness. That leads to a complete loss of hope. They see no way out, nor any hope of one, and give up. Not in every instance perhaps, but it's common and no amount of positive thinking will work at this stage, unless it restores hope. Though sadly such people usually won't confide in anyone.

I was depressed once.  So, I know about that and I understand what you are talking about.  I'm not sure if you understand how much thought process contributes to or takes away from depression though.  So..I will just say it this way:  Imagine yourself walking down a beach on a sunny day.  You feel happy.  You feel great.  Then you see something that sparks a memory of sadness.  Maybe it's a dead bird let's say.  And you start thinking about a loved one or friend that died...and how unfair that was.  If  you continue down that thought path, you might even start crying.  And here you are all happy and everything...crying on a beautiful beach on a sunny day.  Just a thought left unguarded, uncontrolled can take you down that path.  

So, to me...a feeling of hopelessness is the result of a negative thought process.  Because....   our thoughts are very powerful things...they can release chemicals in our brain...and if you allow yourself to go down that road toward depression...the end result is hopelessness...and again, you are right...there is a point there where that chemical imbalance becomes so distinct that thought alone cannot overcome it.  

3 hours ago, Horta said:

Not sure where you're going regarding "physics and reality". But physics (and chemistry) underly the processes that will make it a certainty such feelings exist. The reality is we have all felt the set of emotions and thoughts that we describe as "hope". One of the very few sociological benefits of religion is that it offers hope. A false hope in my opinion but, whatever. It's probably better than the Casino. It's only a problem when it's relied on too much, or exclusively.

I agree...but in my opinion all hope is false hope...because the 'physics' of it is this:  I hope it doesn't rain...my party is going to be ruined...it will be an absolute disaster if it rains.  While all that may be true...it's either going to rain or it won't.  So, instead of 'hoping' it doesn't...do what you can to reduce the impact if it does...and maybe reducing the impact means preparing your mind to accept the disaster as a possibility.  Again, the hope is false in the sense it doesn't change anything..but..it does give comfort to the mind that maybe things we have no control over will turn out okay.  Comfort to the mind is a good thing.  I mean, I guess in that sense you could say I have hope because I'm an optimist...I think things are just going to pan out alright in the end.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't...but I'm sure as hell not going to worry about it.  I'd rather spend my mental power thinking of a way to mitigate damage if the worse happens.... @Xeno-Fish 's  Risk Assessment.

 

3 hours ago, Horta said:

You seem to be saying that you have effective ways of blocking these feelings out. Not sure that's the way to go either. They're easy to deal with and can be used in a positive way, they can give a sense of optimism and motivate people. IMO they are an important part of what makes us human.

If you've found another way that works, good for you, but I reserve some scepticism about it.

I'm not talking about blocking out the feelings...I'm talking about over-riding the negative thoughts regarding those feelings with positive thoughts.  That's what Positive Thinking really does.  Over a period of time it changes the way we think.  Because the subconscious mind searches for thoughts to support the conscious thought of the moment regardless of what that thought is.

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29 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Sure it did, you wanted the job. Were you 100% assured of this job, there was no chance you weren't going to get it?  Then another way to phrase that situation is that you applied for the job hoping you'd get it.  If you've never gambled how about asking somebody out on a date?  You do that not hoping that the person will go out with you?  Not sure why one would do it then.  Hope seems to be pretty core to our motivations and thus actions.

I'm just going to say...uh...yeah man, you are absolutely right!  I was hoping beyond hope that I got that job because I desperately needed it.  If I didn't get it...I'd be in a pickle.  But that was 1985 too and I was 27 then and I'd only been reading Napoleon Hill's book for a few days.  So, they hired me...but it really didn't happen because I was 'hoping' it would.  It happened because I Thought Positive thoughts about it.   So...actually this is a really good illustration of what positive thinking actually is and why it is a good thing:

I thought...I have to get this job, they must hire me.  I will call him every morning at eight o'clock sharp!   .....yeah but see, there is this little voice in my head that was saying, careful...you don't want to irritate him by calling him to much...after all he did tell you to call next week...

So who do I listen to here?  My voice telling me...call every morning.  Or my voice that says...don't call him every morning you will just make him not like you?

I decided not to leave it to chance...he might come across an application that he liked better than mine.  I did not want to hear, Sorry but we hired someone else already.  So, I called him and I called him and I called him.  Every morning at eight oclock and in the end he hired me because of my perseverance and determination, which came about from positive thinking...not hoping.  Sure I was hopeful...but it wasn't hope that got me hired...that's all.

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10 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I don't spend any time worrying and fretting about what other people think, feel and do. It's a hopeless obsession. "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."   BF

I don't know why that reminded me of this but...thanks anyway...because...I just remembered why I have such a strong dis-attachment to the word Hope.

Hope and Change.   That was Obama's 'theme' of his first election.  Hope and change.  The Democrat's politicized the word and continue to do so with signs in their yards that say Hope Lives Here...and....Hope has not left the building.  etc.  

So I began pondering...what the hell does hope have to do with anything really?  It didn't...it just played on people's emotions...I mean, pffft, after all, who is going to poo poo someone else's hope?  

So yeah, they politicized another perfectly acceptable word.   You probably have one of those signs in your yard...I hope not.  ^_^

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On 3/25/2021 at 11:51 PM, joc said:

 

 

I'm not talking about blocking out the feelings...I'm talking about over-riding the negative thoughts regarding those feelings with positive thoughts.  That's what Positive Thinking really does.  Over a period of time it changes the way we think.  Because the subconscious mind searches for thoughts to support the conscious thought of the moment regardless of what that thought is.

It's not about being clever joc. 

So to get this straight so far. Someone close to you that you love gets quite ill. You have no hopes that they recover. That's not a concern of yours as they either will or they won't. It's not something that bothers you, you don't worry or have any fears...

When you hear the machine guns pinging the door on the landing craft, and knowing you'll have to make it a couple hundred yards through the water and across the beach when that door opens, that's not going to cause you any anxiety or fear. As you don't give in to hope, so you'll either make it or not, same with your friends.

Not sure how believable this is, but that's what you seemed to be saying initially.

Now you're saying you would use "positive thinking" to replace one set of feelings with others that you find more palatable or "positive" (no repression though?). This quite obviously is also a crutch, lends itself to fantasy, and unlike simple hopes and aspirations, can simply amount to being in denial.

It's not convincing but if it works for you... 

Napoleon Hill? Thought you said you had nothing to do with self help charlatans?

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Horta said:

It's not about being clever joc. 

So to get this straight so far. Someone close to you that you love gets quite ill. You have no hopes that they recover. That's not a concern of yours as they either will or they won't. It's not something that bothers you, you don't worry or have any fears...

I don't.  I'll just deal with whatever the situation turns out to be in the end.  If they survive, I'll be glad.  If they don't, I'll be sad.  But there I have no power over the outcome so please tell me...what does worrying do for them...and what does it do for the worrier?  

 

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