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Xeno-Fish

Positive Thinking is Overrated

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Mr Walker

After reading the  first two pages of this tread it epitomises to me the deep divide between natural pessimists and catastrophists, and natural optimists including those who are unrealistically optimistic.

A human life should be happy, or at least content. If a person is unhappy, miserable, sad or depressed much of the time, there is either  a medical problem or a psychological one 

This may also be true of an overly optimistic person, but it doesn't do as much harm (no one commits suicide, or is over anxious about being too happy) 

One of the best pieces of advice my dad gave to me as a child was, " Never waste time worrying about things beyond your control, but spend all your energies controlling thise things you do have control over "

The article actually seemed to apply more  to people with severe mood swings 

Ie if you  use optimism to remain positive in the moment, then you don't become hurt   when things don't work out; you just look forward to another positive outcome   

if you are always optimistic, then you never suffer the low points or let down. 

Sometimes I think some pessimists are deliberately so, so the y don't have to aim high or try hard( ( Oh, it wont do any good, anyway) and can be self  satisfied when things go wrong. 

 

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Mr Walker
On 3/9/2021 at 2:54 PM, the13bats said:

I do not mean this in any derogatory way your reply to spartan #59 is to me a glaring example of the delusinal fantasy world you built and live in and its as fragile as a house of cards, if it works for you i say more power to you.

That is one of countless examples you are in fantasyland, a truck heater core leaking is wrong even if somehow you painted it as a good thing,

Like i said if this mindset works for you im all for it.

No need for a long diatribe how you arent in delusion, unless you have a word you like better, too bad more people cant do as you do.

No mental construct is any more or less fantasy than any other 

Choose to be happy and content or chose to be miserable and depressed.

Both are nothing more than your own self  constructs 

It is not our external environment which determines our state of mind. it is our state of mind which determines how we perceive and react to our external environment

  eg One person's car breaks down late at night,  30 miles from the nearest town 

They catastrophise, seek to blame,  become  afraid, angry, anxious and depressed 

Another person  just has a "laid back' approach, works out the possibilities decides on the best option and works to achieve it.

No need for the anger, fear, anxiety   or depression.

No one to blame 

A truck heater core leaking is just a practical problem, which needs fixing, or  temporarily  working around.   It is not wrong.  It has no innate emotional nature 

You get to decide how you respond .   

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2021 at 8:00 PM, Xeno-Fish said:

I guess the stupor gave them the illusion of "feeling happy", I mean isn't that what this be positive and happy all the time cult is about? 

I don't drink. I don't smoke. I try to keep myself under strict discipline in order to not fall into those types of traps. I hate medication of any sort. I'm also against any form of hedonism. 

So I don't get to have the chemically induced happiness others do. 

I figure that if I have to think happy thoughts in order to feel good. That feeling is artificially induced. Not naturally occurring. It's just another drug. 

I admire you for this 

however neither depression  nor euphoria Is "natural".

we get to decide how we feel, within the limits of our body's biology 

Happiness is simply one pattern of neural activity.

You can learn to create that pattern on demand and be happy. Or you can learn to create the pattern which is depression etc .

We tend to first learn and model the patterns we get from  our parent's behaviours and emotional responses  and others close to us, but we can always learn how to create new ones

Feelings you consciously produce are not artificial be they good or bad. They are supremely natural 

It is one of the wonders of the human mind that we can choose how we will respond and feel 

IMO make the most of this natural ability 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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joc
23 hours ago, Sherapy said:

This is a good point, in my youth when I started out as a salon owner doing hair, I would use poster boards to paste groups of people aka future clients and then I would give my cards out everywhere,  I went to clubs, all kinds of events, Any chance I had I was my own public relations and this was part of  marketing myself, on slow days I would get on the phone and call clients. The visualization board worked to remind and inspire me to hustle. I even took a course on how to market myself too. Had I not have done the leg work too I would not have build my clientele on visualization alone. 

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  The Visualization Board.  Because we forget easily that which we have spent so much time thinking about.  Like when I was in dire straits with time to practice for my Black Belt...I told Master Reid, don't worry, I'll be ready, I have a plan.  He said let's see it...and then he said, If it isn't written down it isn't a plan.  So I wrote out my plan...and I worked my plan.  In that case the Plan, written out, was the visualization board.  I bet you put your Boards where you could see them all the time.  And then, it's always there, constantly in your face, not only can you not forget about it, it increases your desire...which increases your Positive Thought process, which increases your actions, which enhances greatly your chances of success.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, joc said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  The Visualization Board.  Because we forget easily that which we have spent so much time thinking about.  Like when I was in dire straits with time to practice for my Black Belt...I told Master Reid, don't worry, I'll be ready, I have a plan.  He said let's see it...and then he said, If it isn't written down it isn't a plan.  So I wrote out my plan...and I worked my plan.  In that case the Plan, written out, was the visualization board.  I bet you put your Boards where you could see them all the time.  And then, it's always there, constantly in your face, not only can you not forget about it, it increases your desire...which increases your Positive Thought process, which increases your actions, which enhances greatly your chances of success.

I did put the boards where I could see them the first and last thing every day.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
On 3/28/2021 at 3:35 PM, DingoLingo said:

I dont :) .. 

I have a way of looking at life and living it.. 

Is there a Problem.. Yes or No.. if no then there is nothing to worry about.. if Yes go onto step two..

If Yes.. Can you fix it.. Yes or No.. If  Yes then Fix it!.. if No.. why worry about it because your not going to be able to fix it anyway.. 

been like this since I had my stroke :D .. (mind you the stroke has also got rid of my fight or flight reactions..)

This is my husbands philosophy and mindfulness practice  uses this too. Well said.

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw

I don't make plans, anymore; I just find a link on YouTube and use somebody else's.

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Crazy Horse
On 3/8/2021 at 10:48 PM, spartan max2 said:

I don't think it's personal :lol:. Threads just go through peaks and lulls.

You are right..

It is all a nonsense, an illusion, a distraction and an adventure too..

But to take a hold of IT, and to go with the flow, so to speak...

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Crazy Horse
13 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I don't make plans, anymore; I just find a link on YouTube and use somebody else's.

There is a very thin line that separates the two..

Ones own responsibility, and GODs Plan.

Ones plans, connected to the Divine, are a force and a power that cannot be stopped.

 

 

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Crazy Horse
16 hours ago, joc said:

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  The Visualization Board.  Because we forget easily that which we have spent so much time thinking about.  Like when I was in dire straits with time to practice for my Black Belt...I told Master Reid, don't worry, I'll be ready, I have a plan.  He said let's see it...and then he said, If it isn't written down it isn't a plan.  So I wrote out my plan...and I worked my plan.  In that case the Plan, written out, was the visualization board.  I bet you put your Boards where you could see them all the time.  And then, it's always there, constantly in your face, not only can you not forget about it, it increases your desire...which increases your Positive Thought process, which increases your actions, which enhances greatly your chances of success.

That is great that you can utilise those techniques Joc..

And that they have helped you out,,

But, seriously, what happens if someone doesn't have a pen and paper handy?

There has to be a back-up plan?

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

That is great that you can utilise those techniques Joc..

And that they have helped you out,,

But, seriously, what happens if someone doesn't have a pen and paper handy?

There has to be a back-up plan?

A notes app on ones cell phone works too. I use mine all the time. 

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joc
3 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

That is great that you can utilise those techniques Joc..

And that they have helped you out,,

But, seriously, what happens if someone doesn't have a pen and paper handy?

There has to be a back-up plan?

You don't create a plan with a pen and a piece of  paper.  You create a plan in your head using your thought process.  We write the plan down...A.  so we don't forget what the particulars of the plan were over time...and B.  as a reminder tool that we have a plan and we are working our plan.  

Who doesn't have a pen and paper somewhere in their possessions?  Seriously?  We are talking about...a plan...not a shopping list...however:

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

A notes app on ones cell phone works too. I use mine all the time. 

A L L  the time!  Hey what kind of flower is that...on the note app.  Ring, ring, Honey could you please  pick up a pizza and some cheese and some half and half....on the note app.  Things to buy at Home Depot...on the note app.  

And then their is the planner app...which is actually just my appointments I have scheduled.  One thing I do not own are any checks.  I have no checks.  I have several bank accounts, Personal, Joint, Business, Savings...but I don't have any checks.  And I don't keep many receipts...and I don't keep a bank book...writing checks down and subtracting and adding deposits...I just don't do any of that.  My Bank app tells me what my balance is...and has every transaction recorded so...it's just all way to stressful to do all that.  :)

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't create a plan with a pen and a piece of  paper.  You create a plan in your head using your thought process.  We write the plan down...A.  so we don't forget what the particulars of the plan were over time...and B.  as a reminder tool that we have a plan and we are working our plan.  

Who doesn't have a pen and paper somewhere in their possessions?  Seriously?  We are talking about...a plan...not a shopping list...however:

Another reason for writing a plan down is to get it out of your head so that you can see any flaws or adjustments that need to be made.

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Crazy Horse
3 minutes ago, joc said:

You don't create a plan with a pen and a piece of  paper.  You create a plan in your head using your thought process.  We write the plan down...A.  so we don't forget what the particulars of the plan were over time...and B.  as a reminder tool that we have a plan and we are working our plan.  

Who doesn't have a pen and paper somewhere in their possessions?  Seriously?  We are talking about...a plan...not a shopping list...however:

 

What happens when you are swimming?

 

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Crazy Horse
20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No mental construct is any more or less fantasy than any other 

Choose to be happy and content or chose to be miserable and depressed.

Both are nothing more than your own self  constructs 

It is not our external environment which determines our state of mind. it is our state of mind which determines how we perceive and react to our external environment

You get to decide how you respond .   

This I like... Mr Walker.

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, joc said:

You don't create a plan with a pen and a piece of  paper.  You create a plan in your head using your thought process.  We write the plan down...A.  so we don't forget what the particulars of the plan were over time...and B.  as a reminder tool that we have a plan and we are working our plan.  

Who doesn't have a pen and paper somewhere in their possessions?  Seriously?  We are talking about...a plan...not a shopping list...however:

A L L  the time!  Hey what kind of flower is that...on the note app.  Ring, ring, Honey could you please  pick up a pizza and some cheese and some half and half....on the note app.  Things to buy at Home Depot...on the note app.  

And then their is the planner app...which is actually just my appointments I have scheduled.  One thing I do not own are any checks.  I have no checks.  I have several bank accounts, Personal, Joint, Business, Savings...but I don't have any checks.  And I don't keep many receipts...and I don't keep a bank book...writing checks down and subtracting and adding deposits...I just don't do any of that.  My Bank app tells me what my balance is...and has every transaction recorded so...it's just all way to stressful to do all that.  :)

Life is so much easier now. :D

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joc
20 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Life is so much easier now. :D

It really is.  Anyone who yearns for the 'good ole days'  is either still living in the good ole days or has no clue how to navigate the current state of technological miracles.

When my daughter told me several years ago...you know Dad, they make an app for your phone for that...(scheduling book)...and it's free.  I was like, too old school for that...it's only when I got the app and figured it out that it was a no brainer how hard I had been working before that.   You remember the times...burger in one hand, mapsco and pin in the other, cell phone between chin and ear, writing a customer's address in my schedule book while driving with my knee  at 79 mph ...oh yeah...the good ole days fer sure! :yes:

:no:

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joc
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Another reason for writing a plan down is to get it out of your head so that you can see any flaws or adjustments that need to be made.

Yes ma'm!   Plan your work and work your plan.  If it isn't written down...yeah, you're just daydreaming.  Fantasizing and daydreaming and getting depressed when things don't work out right. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Life is so much easier now. :D

I pay all bills on line, now, except my Kidney doctor, who's still stuck in twentieth century.

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I pay all bills on line, now, except my Kidney doctor, who's still stuck in twentieth century.

It is just easier. 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

It is just easier. 

Except for that forgetting passwords thing and you go to manage passwords and it says that one was never saved.:cry:

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Horta
On 3/27/2021 at 11:39 AM, joc said:

I don't play out scenarios like movies in my mind.  That isn't reality.  I deal with reality..not fantasy.

Evasion more like it.

From what I have gathered so far you seem quite enamoured with the "positivity" fantasy, even if the fancy talk of charlatans has convinced you otherwise.

Quote

That is not what I said at all.  You just misunderstand what I did say.  First of all...thoughts are NOT feelings.  Feelings are a result of a chemical reaction in our brain because of the thoughts we have.  H U G E  difference.  

Partially true. Thoughts and feelings occur because of neuro-chemical activity in the brain. In an obviously two way reciprocal relationship (not one way) that can effect the body and direct or mediate behaviour. The emotions are generally thought to originate from the limbic system. While conscious thought correlates with activity in the cerebral cortex. Though I think there is research that disagrees with this now. At any rate the appearance of emotions such as fear are not usually under any sort of conscious control anyway. It's obvious you claim to replace or "overcome" thoughts and feelings of fear (that you subjectively associate with "negativity") with "positive" ones, regardless. Your quotes...

"I have no worries and I hope for nothing and I have no fear.  Consequently...I have no stress.".............."what I am meaning is that I don't allow fear to occupy a place in my mind. I'm not talking about repressing it.  I'm talking about 'overcoming' it through positive thought process." 

That's avoidance and repression, you just use a different term for it.

The quackery that sees fear as some sort of boogeyman to be avoided universally is nonsense to begin with. I could explain with examples, though it seems you don't like hypotheticals. The part of this immense complexity that we are aware of amounts to such a small fraction of what is really going on that to think you can have a mind free of fear in such a manner is pop psychology at its worst. The result of this can be quite unhealthy. Getting rid of the thetans might be more useful, as we might to at least expect the placebo effect there..

I don't really mind that you seem slightly fanatical over this doctrine, who knows perhaps you can convince yourself that it works. Though from you first reply it seems you think I should also believe it. There are times when I can't discern bs of course, yet this isn't one of those times.

 

Quote

Why do you think Napoleon Hill was a charlatan?  At this point I must conclude that you have no idea at all where I'm coming from.  What did Napoleon Hill ever say or do that would make you think he was a charlatan?  I really want to know.  What he did do was develop a philosophy on how to think and he shared it with the world in hopes that it would improve the lot in life for many of the truly depressed people in his time.  They didn't call it the depression for nothing you know.  If you want to know what I know...read the first chapter of Think and Grow Rich and then tell me how Napoleon Hill is a charlatan.  Otherwise...this conversation is  finished.

Of course he was a charlatan. It is a charlatan industry. It's snake oil. The "secret" of Oprah fame was basically a plagiarism of his work.

Whether charlatans believe in what they themselves sell is very arguable. I have known some good ones personally, and still can't always decide. The cult psychology aspect of such phenomena is fascinating though.

It's not an uncommon opinion. 

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-untold-story-of-napoleon-hill-the-greatest-self-he-1789385645

ps. Why did you claim you thought up this entire philosophy by yourself, that you were your own guru? Just before throwing quotes of your favourite charlatan around? It seems I was right from the very first reply. 

 

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joc
28 minutes ago, Horta said:

It's obvious you claim to replace or "overcome" thoughts and feelings of fear (that you subjectively associate with "negativity") with "positive" ones, regardless. Your quotes...

"I have no worries and I hope for nothing and I have no fear.  Consequently...I have no stress.".............."what I am meaning is that I don't allow fear to occupy a place in my mind. I'm not talking about repressing it.  I'm talking about 'overcoming' it through positive thought process." 

That's avoidance and repression, you just use a different term for it.

 

Whatever you say my friend.  Here is an example of what I'm talking about...you can call it whatever you want.  When I was a boy I learned to swim in a lake.  I loved to swim underwater, at the bottom  with my eyes open.  One day I went against my dad's advice who told us that we should never swim into the lake just swim parallel to the shore.  You could walk out quite a way in that lake and still have your head above the water.  

Anyway, I decided to swim into the lake along the bottom and I could see the terrain grading downward, and I just followed it and suddenly it got a lot darker and the water got a lot colder...that scared me and I shot up to the top, but I was a lot deeper than I thought and that really scared me because I was out of breath and not at the top.  When I say that scared me...what I mean is it really, seriously scared me.  

Flash forward I'm in my apartment soon after moving to Dallas.  I decided to go swimming in the pool one night.  It was all lit up.  I was alone.  I also like to swim from one side of a pool to the other, along the bottom and so I did...except...I didn't.  I couldn't.  when I got to the deepest part of the pool where the drain is...I panicked and shot up to the top.

I tried it again and again.  I could not...literally could not swim past the drain.  I got out of the pool and walked all the way around...it wasn't a real large pool either...I told myself there is nothing in the pool but water...I kept telling myself I could do it.  And, eventually I did it.  After I did it.  I did it over and over and over.  

That's what I'm talking about Horta.  Of course we all have fears.  But...if we can identify what we are afraid of...if we can confront that fear head on...we can overcome it.  

41 minutes ago, Horta said:

Of course he was a charlatan. It is a charlatan industry. It's snake oil.

Broad brush painting.   Nothing more, nothing  less.  

42 minutes ago, Horta said:

ps. Why did you claim you thought up this entire philosophy by yourself, that you were your own guru? Just before throwing quotes of your favourite charlatan around? It seems I was right from the very first reply. 

Dude...I didn't.  See, you hear what you WANT to hear...that's because you are already biased against me for some reason I suppose.  Don't know, don't care really.  You continually draw conclusions because you don't really 'hear' what other people are saying...you hear what you want to hear.

I never said any such thing...and btw...if you are going to try to 'get' someone at least use the quote you are referring to.  So...I'll just post it for you...it is from #140:

Quote

Just clarifying...It's perfectly fine for you and everyone else to hope for the best or whatever you hope for.  I hope your hopes are favorable.  But the bottom line in Physics and Reality is that hope has nothing to do with Positive Thinking.  I am my own guru...no one told me anything about hope...I thought it out for myself.  Just like praying.  I don't pray.  And I don't hope for anything.  If I can change it...I do.  If it is beyond my control...c'est la vie.  Why worry about it.  At the bottom of worry is fear.  At the bottom of Hope is fear.  I have no worries and I hope for nothing and I have no fear.  Consequently...I have no stress

I was talking about hope.  Look...no offense but, I know you don't like me so just put me on ignore.  

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Horta
On 3/27/2021 at 11:09 AM, joc said:

I don't.  I'll just deal with whatever the situation turns out to be in the end.  If they survive, I'll be glad.  If they don't, I'll be sad.  But there I have no power over the outcome so please tell me...what does worrying do for them...and what does it do for the worrier?  

 

Hope can do wonders in such instances. It is compassionate and helps get people through some tough times and motivates them to help in any way they can. It is comforting (why is that wrong?) and can also be of great benefit to the one afflicted, so in this way yes it can help regardless. It is simply an expression of the love and compassion that most people are capable of displaying IMO.

While preparing for the worst is an acknowledgement of the fear and worry, and itself a way of coping and dealing with it, should their hopes be in vain. This seems quite balanced and healthy.

Any teaching extreme enough that following it would make you indifferent emotionally to the suffering of someone you love, and who is possibly facing the end, should raise a big red flag. This isn't uncommon in the teachings of all sorts of cult ideologies, not only self help but religious also. Though couched in logic and jargon that can sound great and be difficult at first to deny. It can appeal to certain people for this reason. There is a myth that people caught up in weird ideologies must be unintelligent. It's not true. I know of some that statistically attract very intelligent people. Despite being a sham preached by sociopathic delusionals.

 

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joc
Just now, Horta said:

Hope can do wonders in such instances. It is compassionate and helps get people through some tough times and motivates them to help in any way they can. It is comforting (why is that wrong?) and can also be of great benefit to the one afflicted, so in this way yes it can help regardless. It is simply an expression of the love and compassion that most people are capable of displaying IMO.

While preparing for the worst is an acknowledgement of the fear and worry, and itself a way of coping and dealing with it, should their hopes be in vain. This seems quite balanced and healthy.

Any teaching extreme enough that following it would make you indifferent emotionally to the suffering of someone you love, and who is possibly facing the end, should raise a big red flag. This isn't uncommon in the teachings of all sorts of cult ideologies, not only self help but religious also. Though couched in logic and jargon that can sound great and be difficult at first to deny. It can appeal to certain people for this reason. There is a myth that people caught up in weird ideologies must be unintelligent. It's not true. I know of some that statistically attract very intelligent people. Despite being a sham preached by sociopathic delusionals.

 

We already talked about how hope benefits how the 'hoper' feels.  That's all it is good for...to make one feel better.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's just that I don't like the word because Obama co-opted it in his campaign slogan.  I kept thinking...Hope and Change...what does that even mean...

Hope is feel good ism.   It actually changes nothing except how a person 'feels'.   

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