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Mississippi ban transgender women from sports


Eldorado

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2 hours ago, OverSword said:

Which born female didn't make the team due to Lea Thomas?  This is not only about that one swimmer.

The slowest.  Lea just upped the  top end.  The next best and the next best after that still made the team. 

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6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

The slowest.  Lea just upped the  top end.  The next best and the next best after that still made the team. 

At some point the inevitability of that logic will result in an all trans-women, female swim team which shall not lose a single meet and smash every female college record.  That will work so well that soon it will be all trans woman soccer teams, tennis teams, lacrosse, basketball, etc. all competing against natural born women until there are no natural born women competing in sports at that level.  I find it sad to think you may actually be serious with that statement I quoted.  Logic and facts just don't matter any more, do they?

Edited by OverSword
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2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

At some point the inevitability of that logic will result in an all trans-women, female swim team which shall not lose a single meet and smash every female college record.  That will work so well that soon it will be all trans woman soccer teams, tennis teams, lacrosse, basketball, etc. all competing against natural born women until there are no natural born women competing in sports at that level.  I find it sad to think you may actually be serious with that statement I quoted.  Logic and facts just don't matter any more, do they?

Facts <> speculation

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Just now, Golden Duck said:

Facts <> speculation

Common sense <>  messed up ideology

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Does no one remember the trans that broke the skull of the woman in that MMA 'fight'? He should've been arrested for assault at the very least, or more importantly, the people who allowed it to go on.

I may have mentioned this in here, or maybe someone else did. I can't remember.

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14 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Common sense = prejudice

So letting men that feel they are women compete against real women is common sense?  You're ridiculous.

Edited by OverSword
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5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So letting men that feel they are women compete against real women is common sense?  You're ridiculous.

I didn't say that.  I'm not one to comment on you personally.  But, your comprehension, on the other hand, is ridiculous.

There is, by and large, a 10-12 per cent difference between mens and womens records.  T-inhibitors reduce performance by about the same amount.  An average male athlete will still be an average female athlete.

Hannah Mouncey was banned from the AFLW over concerns about her size; yet, she is smaller than Valerie Adams.  Laurel Hubbard didn't make one successful lift at the Olympics.  Rules about hormone levels were only changed for events Caster Semenya competed in.  And now we have talk of a female MMA fighter suffering an fairly common injury that occurs more than once in every 50 fights.

Ivy League atlhetics scholarships.  Caitlyn Jenner not entering golf tournaments.

Where are the facts.

Sure, the idea of trans competing in female sports is uncomfortable; but, it's appeal to common sense. It's as uncomfortable as facts don't support the rules that have been tried over the last 50 years.

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41 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I didn't say that.  I'm not one to comment on you personally.  But, your comprehension, on the other hand, is ridiculous.

There is, by and large, a 10-12 per cent difference between mens and womens records.  T-inhibitors reduce performance by about the same amount.  An average male athlete will still be an average female athlete.

Hannah Mouncey was banned from the AFLW over concerns about her size; yet, she is smaller than Valerie Adams.  Laurel Hubbard didn't make one successful lift at the Olympics.  Rules about hormone levels were only changed for events Caster Semenya competed in.  And now we have talk of a female MMA fighter suffering an fairly common injury that occurs more than once in every 50 fights.

Ivy League atlhetics scholarships.  Caitlyn Jenner not entering golf tournaments.

Where are the facts.

Sure, the idea of trans competing in female sports is uncomfortable; but, it's appeal to common sense. It's as uncomfortable as facts don't support the rules that have been tried over the last 50 years.

 

You won't comment on me personally but then do so anyway?  Then proceed to use arbitrary stats and anecdotes that don't prove or disprove a position, which you don't necessarily hold?

41 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Where are the facts.

The facts are that trans-women consistently outperform their female competitors to an embarrassing degree.  If this was fair wouldn't they normally fall somewhere among mediocre like 70% of competitors?   The swimmer 10th best on his male team is now the best on her female team.  Says something doesn't it?  I'm sure to you it says I'm prejudice ;)

edit:  Will Thomas ranked 462 among male college swimmers.  Lia Thomas Ranked number one among female college swimmers.  And yet there's no difference in having trans-women compete at this level. It's all still fair.  That being the case why bother dividing sport competitions between male and female?  

Edited by OverSword
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23 minutes ago, OverSword said:

 

You won't comment on me personally but then do so anyway?  Then proceed to use arbitrary stats and anecdotes that don't prove or disprove a position, which you don't necessarily hold?

The facts are that trans-women consistently outperform their female competitors to an embarrassing degree.  If this was fair wouldn't they normally fall somewhere among mediocre like 70% of competitors?  

You are defined by your ability misquote me, are you?  You can't change who are; but, you can change your behaviour.  If you don't want to be called out misquoting me simply don't misquote me.

I appreciate your disdain for the arbitrary and anedotal.  Your assertion about trans "consistantly outperfoming" and a group that forms 70 per cent of something is compelling.

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1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

You are defined by your ability misquote me, are you?  You can't change who are; but, you can change your behaviour.  If you don't want to be called out misquoting me simply don't misquote me.

I appreciate your disdain for the arbitrary and anedotal.  Your assertion about trans "consistantly outperfoming" and a group that forms 70 per cent of something is compelling.

Will Thomas ranked 462 among male college swimmers.  Lia Thomas Ranked number one among female college swimmers.    How is that for compelling? 

Edited by OverSword
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3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Will Thomas ranked 462 among male college swimmers.  Lia Thomas Ranked number one among female college swimmers.    How is that for compelling? 

The left will ignore the fact.   

 

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5 minutes ago, Myles said:

The left will ignore the fact.   

 

And yet somehow I am the ignorant one here, speaking from prejudice and hate :yes: 

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15 minutes ago, Myles said:

The left will ignore the fact.   

 

Not true.  I think after high school, trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with biological women.  I think sports up until the college level is part of the process of social growth for kids.  But after high school, when money and scholarships and Olympic glory are possibly involved, it shouldn't be allowed.

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3 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

Not true.  I think after high school, trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with biological women.  I think sports up until the college level is part of the process of social growth for kids.  But after high school, when money and scholarships and Olympic glory are possibly involved, it shouldn't be allowed.

I personally think that since high school ranking and performance affects admittance to a college team that it should be segregated at a high school level for most sports as well.

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15 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Will Thomas ranked 462 among male college swimmers.  Lia Thomas Ranked number one among female college swimmers.    How is that for compelling? 

Differnt event.

Will Thomas was sixth fastest nationally in the 500yd as a male freshman.  Lia Thomas won as a 5th year senior.

But, should we even count it because the NCAA competition isn't even compliant with FINA.  The FINA threshold for testosterone is 5 nanomoles per litre.

This is just a return to the days of the hormone fuelled Santa Monica Track Club.  Except this time the Ivy League and the NCAA have way to cheat without having to hide anything.

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2 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Differnt event.

Will Thomas was sixth fastest nationally in the 500yd as a male freshman.  Lia Thomas won as a 5th year senior.

But, should we even count it because the NCAA competition isn't even compliant with FINA.  The FINA threshold for testosterone is 5 nanomoles per litre.

This is just a return to the days of the hormone fuelled Santa Monica Track Club.  Except this time the Ivy League and the NCAA have way to cheat without having to hide anything.

So you admit it's cheating.  

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7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So you admit it's cheating.  

If the Ivy League and NCAA changed the rules, isn't more accurate to describe is as American Exceptionalism?

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1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

I'm not the first one to say it, norbis it a new idea.

 

And yet I'll wager most young children who never heard of trans genderism have enough common sense to answer with a big GUFFAW if asked if it's fair for men to compete against women in sports.

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2 hours ago, OverSword said:

At some point the inevitability of that logic will result in an all trans-women, female swim team which shall not lose a single meet and smash every female college record.  That will work so well that soon it will be all trans woman soccer teams, tennis teams, lacrosse, basketball, etc. all competing against natural born women until there are no natural born women competing in sports at that level.  I find it sad to think you may actually be serious with that statement I quoted.  Logic and facts just don't matter any more, do they?

My statement was cold, but had a grain of truth.  The slowest will be cut.  But the slowest will not ever be in the top tier of women's sport or go to the Olympics.  If I was really cold, I would suggest that training with Lia will be an incentive for the rest of the women to train even harder and push their performance. But it is really not a topic for practicality and cold calculation.

Logic and facts do matter.  Logic and facts do not support that it is inevitable, a foregone conclusion, that trans-women will replace all other women in sports.  

Colleges and universities, the IOC  and just about every sports regulating organization has something to say about this.  If it gets to be more than an rarity, they are going to act. Probably  that rarity invigorates interest and financial return for college sports.  

My principle objection has always been that I want schools, parents, social norms, and athletic organizations to take care of sports and gender determinations, not a government.  I like local control where it is possible.  I like interested and affected citizens  to have some involvement and a voice.

I think some of this is projection too.  Many men may believe that trans-women are only faking it for some kind of advantage, like getting into women's  bathrooms or winning in women's sports. In other words that they are simply predators.   I think there is more to it than that.  The social and emotional cost is far too great for most to justify it as an advantage. 

 

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9 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Dave (in your example) can't go out for a women's team as a woman.  Putting on a dress and calling yourself "Davina" does not make you a woman, though it does make you someone who's doing "drag" rather badly.  The minute someone says "show me your drivers' license" and it says "male", we all know you're just pretending to be trans.

So if someone is faking, and still shows up, how do they disqualify them without initiating a lawsuit? Drivers license?

Did Lia change her sex from male to female on her license between being on the men's team last year and womans team this year?

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And no reliable medical professional simply hands out hormone treatments on a whim.

Generally someone who transitions has gone through a years-long process, including entering safe spaces (often at something like a science fiction convention or Furry convention) while temporarily presenting as their preferred gender.  This includes purchasing and making special body modifications clothing such as breast binders, shapewear, corsets, "gaffs" (underwear for males transitioning) and more.  Most physicians will also insist on consultations with psychiatrists who will make certain that you're really transitioning rather than just escaping.  THEN you can get hormones (and it takes several years to get the right result).

Yeah. I get that's. But how long is needed to be considered proof? Over a year? Two years? A month?

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Then you start reassigning your identity and getting rid of your "dead name" on every single piece of legal paper, including your social security (if applicable in your country) and modified birth certificate as well as things like marriage license (if you're married), car titles, etc, etc.

THEN you can show up at a women's event and announce you're a woman and want to play that sport if your hormone levels are within medical guidelines.

I'd still ask how far along that route is required? And is there any actual rules requiring such?

This whole deal is basically to stop unfairness till what is fair is figured out. If there's no rules preventing fraud, then those left out should petition for legislation to add rules that are fair, and then they can compete.

Taking their word for it is not a viable option, I think.

Quote

And howcome nobody ever discusses women transitioning into men in these discussions?  I know two who have done this, and very successfully.

I'm not sure why, but it seems people are more accepting of the woman->man change, rather then the man->woman change. Probably some societial based psychology involved. 

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2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

So if someone is faking, and still shows up, how do they disqualify them without initiating a lawsuit? Drivers license?

Did Lia change her sex from male to female on her license between being on the men's team last year and womans team this year?

I mean you see my stance on trans individuals competing in college athletics, and it is in line with yours...but it's pretty bold to say she is faking it to win a swim meet....

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2 hours ago, Agent0range said:

I mean you see my stance on trans individuals competing in college athletics, and it is in line with yours...but it's pretty bold to say she is faking it to win a swim meet....

I was more speaking in general in the first paragraph, and then about Lia in the second paragraph.

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"Lia Thomas, the swimmer who won a US women’s national college championship event last week, is a man. It is because he is a man – with a body that is taller, broader and stronger than his female competitors – that he won the NCAA competition. When swimming alongside other men, which Thomas used to do, he ranked an unremarkable 554th in the college league tables."

"A man prevented women competitors, including an Olympic medalist, from receiving the titles they had earned. His presence made the competition fundamentally unjust."

https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/03/21/why-cant-we-tell-the-truth-about-lia-thomas/

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