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Mississippi ban transgender women from sports


Eldorado

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Well here is a thing I do not know.  Some people seem to assume a man just puts on a dress and calls himself a woman to compete.

Does he start hormone treatments?  Does he begin the track of gender reassignment surgery?  Is that person going to live the rest of their life as a woman or after the scholarship put the pants back on and say "Just kidding."?

Why would anybody do that for sports?   It would seem to take more of a life commitment to go through all of that than for  just winning a swimming title. 

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16 hours ago, Setton said:

Interesting to note that women's categories in sports are a fairly recent thing. Previously everyone could compete in the same event.

Women's categories were typically introduced when a woman had the temerity to win against the men competing.

So seems women's categories aren't their to 'give women a chance to win' but to protect fragile male egos.

Got some examples of when that happened?

Edit: read the other responses, but really didn't see clear cut examples of what you suggested, where a woman's sports league, or just a woman's team, came out of woman regularly outperforming men in the same sport. 

Edited by DieChecker
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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Really?

Just posting the worst possible outcome... IMHO... I'm sure some people would think its great.

Its the same thinking that Trump, or Obama, wanted to be Dictator. Or that Trump, or Biden, is a Russian stooge. Possible within extreme conditions, but otherwise unlikely.

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47 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Well here is a thing I do not know.  Some people seem to assume a man just puts on a dress and calls himself a woman to compete.

Does he start hormone treatments?  Does he begin the track of gender reassignment surgery?  Is that person going to live the rest of their life as a woman or after the scholarship put the pants back on and say "Just kidding."?

Why would anybody do that for sports?   It would seem to take more of a life commitment to go through all of that than for  just winning a swimming title. 

Taking the treatments has long wait time for any results, and other treatments can be planned medically, but not completed, and that would still count.

Is there some threshold of time necessary to be trans in order to be considered a woman, rather then a man? I believe just the declaring of such is reason for immediate protections.

So, theoretically, Dave (to just use a name) fails to make mens varsity, or junior varsity, basketball at his high school. So he declares himself a girl now, tries out for womens basketball and makes the varsity team. Plays the season and then declares he's not a girl anymore. Where would consequences come up in that scenario? How long does he have to wait before declaring he's a girl and trying out for the girls team??

Should there be a consequence if the person doesn't continue with the lifestyle? Like what though. And would that confuse/discourage other trans players?

Why do it? Scholarships for one. Having a free ride at a state university, rather then paying tens of thousands of dollars. No brainer. Plus, you don't have to say you were just kidding. You could just say you were confused, or in a phase if life, and phased back. Gender Fluid is now supposed to be a real thing.

Edited by DieChecker
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33 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Just posting the worst possible outcome... IMHO... I'm sure some people would think its great.

Its the same thinking that Trump, or Obama, wanted to be Dictator. Or that Trump, or Biden, is a Russian stooge. Possible within extreme conditions, but otherwise unlikely.

I think it's so unlikely that it doesn't bear mention. It's just another thing to wind up the smaller minded conservatives.

What nobody seems to be discussing is that according to the WADA and USADA, allowing trans women with a testosterone count are breaking their own rules. This is why Mississippi is important. Testosterone is a banned substance.

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16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I think it's so unlikely that it doesn't bear mention. It's just another thing to wind up the smaller minded conservatives.

What nobody seems to be discussing is that according to the WADA and USADA, allowing trans women with a testosterone count are breaking their own rules. This is why Mississippi is important. Testosterone is a banned substance.

Is it banned if artificial, or banned altogether? If the person can't help it, shouldn't it be legal?

Maybe that's where the line gets drawn though.

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55 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Should there be a consequence if the person doesn't continue with the lifestyle?

That would never disappear anywhere Dave went.  Every date he went on, he would be afraid it would show up on twitter.  Any significant job could turn it up in a background check. Friends among men, the trans community, or women might be subject to negative judgements.  People on the street might not know, or they might recognize him. Anybody he developed a relationship with  would likely find out.   It seems like a lot of unpleasantness to deal with through life.  

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1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Well here is a thing I do not know.  Some people seem to assume a man just puts on a dress and calls himself a woman to compete.

Does he start hormone treatments?  Does he begin the track of gender reassignment surgery?  Is that person going to live the rest of their life as a woman or after the scholarship put the pants back on and say "Just kidding."?

Why would anybody do that for sports?   It would seem to take more of a life commitment to go through all of that than for  just winning a swimming title. 

Lia Thomas has to take t-inhibitors to participate.  She was supposed to demonstrate a level below 5 nmol/L; but, the NCAA increased the threshold to 10.  This is the the same level imposed in Caster Semenya.

A transgender athlete and doctor reports a loss of about 12 per cent in performance after taking t-inhibitors.  This is about the gap between men and women.  Valerie Adams' PB is less than 12 per cent within the mens shot put record.  If you're a 10 second 100m sprinter you'd lose to Flo Jo with a 12 per cent loss in performance.

The issue is that Lia Thomas went through puberty exposed to male levels of testosterone.  The apprehension is that she has an antomical advantage.

Hannah Mouncey was excluded from AFLW because of a perceived anatomical advantage, but is smaller than Valerie Adams.

The thing with elite sport is that it is inherently unfair because those with an anatomical advantage win.

While the Lia Thomas situation feels wrong the last 50 years has proved there isn't an easy answer.

I will agree that I can't comprehend a male transitioning just for sport or a scholarship.  In kind of too attahed to being a bloke.

 

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2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Well here is a thing I do not know.  Some people seem to assume a man just puts on a dress and calls himself a woman to compete.

Does he start hormone treatments?  Does he begin the track of gender reassignment surgery?  Is that person going to live the rest of their life as a woman or after the scholarship put the pants back on and say "Just kidding."?

Why would anybody do that for sports?   It would seem to take more of a life commitment to go through all of that than for  just winning a swimming title. 

There are many so-called transwomen that have a penis, ya know. Look at Caitlyn Jenner, as an example. Lia Thomas is another.
and the problem is, there is no verification that they are mentally, women! you have to take their word for it, and is some cases (Lia Thomas),
it is obvious that they are pure men (Lia hit on a woman). Nothing you can do about it, so the problem is bound to grow exponentially.

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

That would never disappear anywhere Dave went.  Every date he went on, he would be afraid it would show up on twitter.  Any significant job could turn it up in a background check. Friends among men, the trans community, or women might be subject to negative judgements.  People on the street might not know, or they might recognize him. Anybody he developed a relationship with  would likely find out.   It seems like a lot of unpleasantness to deal with through life.  

But if he's enough of an ass to do it to begin with... Maybe he wouldn't even care.

But, true, most people would care. Thus so many suicidal people in the world. Because they worry their past will catch up with them.

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

There are many so-called transwomen that have a penis, ya know. Look at Caitlyn Jenner, as an example. Lia Thomas is another.
and the problem is, there is no verification that they are mentally, women! you have to take their word for it, and is some cases (Lia Thomas),
it is obvious that they are pure men (Lia hit on a woman). Nothing you can do about it, so the problem is bound to grow exponentially.

Don't these kinds of people just claim to be Bi, or trans woman, but still desire woman? The subject is so murky that any claim is supposed to be accepted without challenge. If you challenge even a little, you're a Hater and a Bigot.

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3 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

There are many so-called transwomen that have a penis, ya know. Look at Caitlyn Jenner, as an example. Lia Thomas is another.
and the problem is, there is no verification that they are mentally, women! you have to take their word for it, and is some cases (Lia Thomas),
it is obvious that they are pure men (Lia hit on a woman). Nothing you can do about it, so the problem is bound to grow exponentially.

I think there are a very limited number of people who would consider that course.  I think we are in no danger of an exponential growth of men donning female persona for advantage.  Have you considered that Lia might be a lesbian trans woman? 

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12 hours ago, Agent0range said:

You're like the UM version of the one liner that no one really pays attention to.  I mean, have you ever offered anything of substance to any conversation at all?  The left hates women.  The left is racist.  Biden's an idiot.  That's a summary of every single one of your posts.  

Does the truth hurt ?

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8 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But if he's enough of an ass to do it to begin with... Maybe he wouldn't even care.

But, true, most people would care. Thus so many suicidal people in the world. Because they worry their past will catch up with them.

But, if it meant a scholarship and to be debt free once graduating from College/Universities, I could see some people thinking it was a great idea.  Look at how society has changed so much from a few years ago.  It's fine to beg for money/smokes/food when instead of getting a job when in the past  pride wouldn't allow someone to admit they needed help.  Self-respect and empathy are sadly lacking in society.  Where is Lia's empathy for her team mates who worked so hard to get on a team and she uses her biological strength to surpass them?  Where is the empathy of Trans women who want to take the words woman and mom/mother away from biological females?  So many people are so me,me,me that they forget they are taking so much from the people they should want support from.  And as I have said before: how many female to male Trans cause these controversies?  They just want to transition and to live as the men they feel they should have been born as.

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I sure don't reject the truth that some people will abuse the system, they always do.

But it is beginning to sound like a gun control argument.  On one side its ban all military style weapons.  On the other, it is 2A rights and why punish all responsible gun owners for the actions of a rare few. Same argument, just left and right have switched sides.

So design laws to deal with exceptions and let the rest of society exercise their rights and get on with life.   We don't think half a dozen tragic school shootings a year will end our society, some even tell me it is the price of freedom.

Half a dozen trans competitors in women's sports will not topple our civilization either.  If one or two of those retransition, make them return the scholarship or whatever.

Meanwhile, I just don't spend any time wondering what kind of package the androgynous person is endowed with who cuts my hair sometimes. They fulfill the role of giving me a good haircut,  Sex will never be a consideration with this person.  Why does it matter to anyone but that person and their social circle ?

 

 

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3 hours ago, glorybebe said:

But, if it meant a scholarship and to be debt free once graduating from College/Universities, I could see some people thinking it was a great idea.  

I remember a movie from the '90s... Soul Man, where the young fellow used a skin pigmentation pill to go to college as a black man, using a black scholarship. Some people will try anything.

I do think that Tatetopa is basically right in that our society has not yet got so depraved that such would be common. We're heading toward lawlessness, but we're not there yet.

Republicans will get into office, as the tides always turn, and push back so progressives don't go too far too fast. Things just about balance in the longer term.

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3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I remember a movie from the '90s... Soul Man, where the young fellow used a skin pigmentation pill to go to college as a black man, using a black scholarship. Some people will try anything.

I do think that Tatetopa is basically right in that our society has not yet got so depraved that such would be common. We're heading toward lawlessness, but we're not there yet.

Republicans will get into office, as the tides always turn, and push back so progressives don't go too far too fast. Things just about balance in the longer term.

I just hope Republicans in Kentucky remember that Dems wouldn't have all 3 chambers if not for McConnell having a hissy about giving citizens a few extra dollars in stimulus money last time around...

I'm sure Mitch has "changed" since then and is looking out for the average everyday American ;)

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19 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I sure don't reject the truth that some people will abuse the system, they always do.

But it is beginning to sound like a gun control argument.  On one side its ban all military style weapons.  On the other, it is 2A rights and why punish all responsible gun owners for the actions of a rare few. Same argument, just left and right have switched sides.

So design laws to deal with exceptions and let the rest of society exercise their rights and get on with life.   We don't think half a dozen tragic school shootings a year will end our society, some even tell me it is the price of freedom.

Half a dozen trans competitors in women's sports will not topple our civilization either.  If one or two of those retransition, make them return the scholarship or whatever.

Meanwhile, I just don't spend any time wondering what kind of package the androgynous person is endowed with who cuts my hair sometimes. They fulfill the role of giving me a good haircut,  Sex will never be a consideration with this person.  Why does it matter to anyone but that person and their social circle ?

 

 

As true as that is. Many worry about more practical issues, such as locker rooms and restrooms. 

At my work, to seem more inclusive, corporate made ONE bathroom, on one floor, in one building out of four multifloor buildings, into a LGBTQ restroom. Which actually was open to anyone. Its a regular multistall bathroom with a row of sinks and papertowel dispensers. It was a woman's bathroom, but they installed a urinal also.

Its not been used since. I spoke to several of the ladies on shift and asked them if they use it. Out of curiosity. They all said they would never use the restroom again. Because a man could just walk up and push open stall doors. 

Meanwhile corporate pats themselves on the back and puts out statements affirming their inclusiveness. 

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Just now, CrimsonKing said:

I just hope Republicans in Kentucky remember that Dems wouldn't have all 3 chambers if not for McConnell having a hissy about giving citizens a few extra dollars in stimulus money last time around...

I'm sure Mitch has "changed" since then and is looking out for the average everyday American ;)

I don't think anyone remembers that. I don't think Republicans in Kentucky will care if they do. Just like Democrats who elected Pelosi don't connect her to the trash pile San Francisco has become.

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1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

I don't think anyone remembers that. I don't think Republicans in Kentucky will care if they do. Just like Democrats who elected Pelosi don't connect her to the trash pile San Francisco has become.

Oh I agree,so in turn we get what we deserve...electing the same people over and over expecting something different or better... Insanity!

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1 minute ago, CrimsonKing said:

Oh I agree,so in turn we get what we deserve...electing the same people over and over expecting something different or better... Insanity!

Part of it is people today have such a short attention span. They can't sit and think about things... That takes so long, and its boring. So they just listen to their favorite media outlet, form a immediate opinion and run with that. Things that aren't immediately in front of them on their fav source basically don't even really exist. Stuff that happen a year ago, or two years ago, like the BLM riot, or even the crash of BBB, just two months ago, is off their radar. They're focused on what's happening now.

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20 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Is it banned if artificial, or banned altogether? If the person can't help it, shouldn't it be legal?

Maybe that's where the line gets drawn though.

It's got nothing to do with anything.

I think that's what I find somewhat distressing about the subject. 

Everyone is focusing on social standing. Not the rules of sports. I don't care of someone identities as a butterfly or a Sherman tank. 

Testosterone is the issue. Not identity. Performance enhancing substances are banned. There's no disclaimer for naturally produced testosterone, it's just a banned substance.

Edited by psyche101
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If you are a biological male you should not compete in female sports.   Pretty easy.

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56 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Everyone is focusing on social standing. Not the rules of sports.

Because your "Identity" is the most important thing there can be these days. Not for me, but for many. Twitter wars... Facebook brawls... Schools, Universities, Government offices, Corporate Headquarters... What you've posted online, and how you present yourself is more important then grades, or laws, or birth gender, religion, or even race. 

The US has slowly been crumbling and allowed people with no right to make social decisions to dictate how society should work. So the 5% is telling the 95% how things should run. 

Which includes such things as allowing a grown man to compete against women.

Look at the overview of US society presented online. We're supposed to support fairness, inclusiveness, tolerance... But those who are loudest in declaring such are neither fair, inclusive or tolerant. They actually are very intolerant of opposing views and are open in that specific groups should... MUST... be treated special, and have extra given to them.

Thus the rules of sports MUST be canceled. If they interfere with a protected class and the protected class FEELS endangered in some way. Could be micro aggressions. Good enough for a lawsuit, so the school, company, team, folds up and concedes. Rules are then changed.

Watch. If testosterone becomes a impediment. The rule will be removed.

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7 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Because your "Identity" is the most important thing there can be these days. Not for me, but for many. Twitter wars... Facebook brawls... Schools, Universities, Government offices, Corporate Headquarters... What you've posted online, and how you present yourself is more important then grades, or laws, or birth gender, religion, or even race. 

The US has slowly been crumbling and allowed people with no right to make social decisions to dictate how society should work. So the 5% is telling the 95% how things should run. 

Which includes such things as allowing a grown man to compete against women.

Look at the overview of US society presented online. We're supposed to support fairness, inclusiveness, tolerance... But those who are loudest in declaring such are neither fair, inclusive or tolerant. They actually are very intolerant of opposing views and are open in that specific groups should... MUST... be treated special, and have extra given to them.

Thus the rules of sports MUST be canceled. If they interfere with a protected class and the protected class FEELS endangered in some way. Could be micro aggressions. Good enough for a lawsuit, so the school, company, team, folds up and concedes. Rules are then changed.

Watch. If testosterone becomes a impediment. The rule will be removed.

Because people allow it. And they like it.

Look how many posters are bogged down in social standing over rules. Nobody is interested in where the rules are being broken. Posters are too happy hiding under a bigotry blanket. Eating up the opportunity to rag out on a minority they fear. 

Media is making a motza over pointless BS. These outraged posters are just feeding that beast. 

It can't be unbanned. If it is, then anyone can take it. And that in turn sets a precedent for more performance enhancing substances. A spiral into destruction. 

It just takes people to get of the hysteria wagon and look at this from a factual point of view. So many are gleefully bagging out Lia yet don't even realise anti doping agencies exist who give her the green light despite it being illegal. They should be under the spotlight. Not Lia.

Gender isn't the actual issue. Doping is. Gender is a money maker distraction. It would be the same if doping agencies gave certain athletes freedom with performance enhancing substances but not others. A lot of people should pull their heads out of their butts and argue the technicalities, not social standing. It's also somewhat distressing how quick so many are to attack a minority they clearly know little about. Yet consider themselves open minded. There's a genuine issue here regarding doping but its more fun for to some to bludgeon the lia is a biological male skit. She has an advantage for a reason. That needs to be addressed.

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