4-year-old recalls past life 9/11 experience

[+ouija ouija]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

What in particular makes this instance so impressive to you? Do you feel its impossible for the claim to be rationalised? Have you looked into the science that says we do not go on? What says we do and that it is wrong?

You're on shakey ground if your best defense is 'science'.

[psyche101]

Just now, ouija ouija said:

You're on shakey ground if your best defense is 'science'.

How's that work? I don't understand what you're getting at. 

[+ouija ouija]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

How's that work? I don't understand what you're getting at. 

What is the 'science' that you mention that proves beyond doubt, that we 'don't go on'?

[fran123]

When my son passed his driving test he wanted his own car. Of all the makes and models available he wanted, and only would buy, a Vauxhall. He'd never even driven a Vauxhall but refused to consider any other manufacturers. .He joined the RAF as a trainee aircraft engineer at the same time he bought his car. Some years later he told me he was thinking of getting a gold tooth.

All very random but my father's best friend died long before my son was born. My son knew absolutely nothing about him, or that he ever even existed. This man drove nothing but Vauxhall cars. During WW2 he was an aircraft enginerr in the RAF and he had a gold tooth. which no-one in our family or circle of friends have.

I have to admit I find these links between my son and my father's friend quite interesting.

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

What is the 'science' that you mention that proves beyond doubt, that we 'don't go on'?

Physics.

Would you like to know more? 

If so, in my words or from a leading physicist?

Edited March 16, 2021 by psyche101

[+ouija ouija]

4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Physics.

Would you like to know more? 

If so, in my words or from a leading physicist?

Your words would be lovely. Thank you.

[WitchHearse]

Kinda off topic but a good example of kids absorbing info at a young age. When 911 happened my sister was about 5. The day after it happened in school the day after she drew the twin towers burning and with a plane crashing into one. We recently found it while going through things our mother kept. It was dated 9/12/01.

[Helen of Annoy]

9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Ive seen the photos of people falling quite often.

I just don't think it's unexplainable.

It's not falling that makes this testimony intriguing (for me), 4-year olds are aware of what falling means and entails. Young children certainly can and do dream and think of falling or flying. And they can tell the difference. 

Personally, I find that detail about fall to horrible death being remembered (interpreted if you will) as the bird-like flight the most touching, the most understandable if you keep the exact situation in mind and because of that the most intriguing. It does sound to me like a testimony someone who was there, facing death in fire, finding the salvation in much more merciful death by fall, would give to us, if they weren't dead.

Is it reincarnation, transfer of memories by any other means, or a child so very gifted for identifying with experiences of others... I don't know, of course. But to me, each of these options is spectacular, though.   

Edited March 16, 2021 by Helen of Annoy
eating letters as usual

[Helen of Annoy]

9 hours ago, Poncho_Peanatus said:

Could be, I reading similar statements from so-called skeptics about 'everybody being kings and queen' or something like that etc.  I just find annoying because the way they dismiss this phenomena means they havent even looked into. So I wonder why not go and buy a ice cream? BTW maybe its real reincarnation, aka dead people coming back in a new body, or some kind of psychological process, intriguing both ways. But this blatant dismissal is beyond insulting. 

 Exactly. We don't know what it is. An actual reincarnation or just portions of someone's identity being somehow (no, don't ask me how  ) given to someone else to do... what exactly... with them... My other person's memories made me more considerate about some specific situations, more prone to understand certain type of human experience, so whatever it was, by whichever mechanism, it made sense. 

 

9 hours ago, Poncho_Peanatus said:

 

HAHAHA my cusin is MTF and he claims it to be improvement. Im old school so I know nothing

It's probably an improvement if the identity of a person tends to female side.

I'm both annoyingly female (complete with mother hen attitude towards people I like) in my outer mind and comfortably gender-less in my deeper mind. 

So I'm fine with physical me being me in this edition, but half-humorously and half-objectively, it's so much more complicated to be a woman.

 

[toast]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:30 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

911 was 20 yes ago and she is 4 so that is 16 not 3 yrs

PG lives in another universe that has an other timing and to us (here) unknown mathematic laws (like 42 x 4,48 = hay fever and not 188,16).

[Helen of Annoy]

2 hours ago, toast said:

PG lives in another universe that has an other timing and to us (here) unknown mathematic laws (like 42 x 4,48 = hay fever and not 188,16).

Well, he's not the only one. 

According to my personal math, it wasn't 20 years ago, because that would make me 20 years older than I was back then. And that's just impossible. 

 

[psyche101]

12 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Your words would be lovely. Thank you.

Why do spiritual people fear scientists?

I would like to think that you have some basic understanding. As in you do realise we are made of atoms I hope. 

We understand atomic structure. Pretty bloody well actually. There might be more to learn, even so, that won't change what we do know. 

That's what we are made up of. Atoms. (approximately 7 x 10 to the power of 27 of them in an average 70kg person). Even the brain. That's where it all happens. Consciousness. Which is basically structured responses developed over millions of years. A defence mechanism to live on land with. For further information regarding understanding consciousness please refer to Michael S. A. Graziano's paper regarding The Attention Schema Theory. LINK. Suffice to say, consiouness isn't the mystery some make it out to be. All animals have various degrees depending on brain development and structure. It's just nature.

As I say, we know how atoms work. There's no external force acting on them. Atoms aren't ghostly or intangible. We know this because we can detect external forces. Incredibly weak forces as well as the very strong ones. We actively look for them. 

So. We can say we are made of atoms. We can say we know how they work. We can say they don't have an external force. Why? Because it's just not there. The brain is very complex, and that's why there's no life after death. There are about 100 billion neurones in our head. They make about 10 to the power of 15 connections. Which by any standard is extraordinarily complex. Our brain is made to handle those connections. If a force existed that could maintain that many connections, which is essentially what is "you" we would be able to detect it as we do the other forces in nature. If we couldn't it would not be strong enough to maintain that complexity. 

So, we know the brain is made of atoms, we know that consciousness is a product of the brain, we know how atoms work and we understand the decomposition process the body goes through upon the event of death. There is nothing that exists that can maintain that complexity. When we die, the brain degrades first. Those connections unravel. What is essentially "you" is lost. 

Questions? 

[psyche101]

13 hours ago, WitchHearse said:

Kinda off topic but a good example of kids absorbing info at a young age. When 911 happened my sister was about 5. The day after it happened in school the day after she drew the twin towers burning and with a plane crashing into one. We recently found it while going through things our mother kept. It was dated 9/12/01.

It's a traumatic event and many traumatic photos were released. That's got to have at least some impact. 

It's expected I would think rather than an amazing recollection.

[psyche101]

10 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It's not falling that makes this testimony intriguing (for me), 4-year olds are aware of what falling means and entails. Young children certainly can and do dream and think of falling or flying. And they can tell the difference. 

Personally, I find that detail about fall to horrible death being remembered (interpreted if you will) as the bird-like flight the most touching, the most understandable if you keep the exact situation in mind and because of that the most intriguing. It does sound to me like a testimony someone who was there, facing death in fire, finding the salvation in much more merciful death by fall, would give to us, if they weren't dead.

Is it reincarnation, transfer of memories by any other means, or a child so very gifted for identifying with experiences of others... I don't know, of course. But to me, each of these options is spectacular, though.   

If it's a reincarnation, why would the child seem pleased to remember instead of deeply depressed? It was a horrific event. I don't think her emotions convey a victim of that attack either. 

I just don't find it spectacular at all. 

[+and-then]

On 3/13/2021 at 12:51 PM, Saru said:

I don't know about this particular story, but I do find reports of very young children recalling specific, verifiable details of a possible past life particularly intriguing.

It is intriguing.  It happens so frequently it can't just be ignored or mocked.  

[Timothy]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:51 AM, Saru said:

I don't know about this particular story, but I do find reports of very young children recalling specific, verifiable details of a possible past life particularly intriguing.

In my time here, I’ve never seen a case where someone had recalled substantial specific information that could be verified, while having no possible way they could have had access/been exposed to said information, and of enough substance that they couldn't possibly have guessed/made it up.

Are you aware or any cases? @and then?

In my opinion it’s similar to astral projection: If it’s supposedly such a widespread thing, and has happened for however long over human history, why has it never been proven to be happening? If it was proven, then we would be trying to understand the mechanism behind the phenomena.

It should be easy to prove, and with all the claims of reincarnation/astral projection out there, if it were actually happening then it should have been proven by now. But I’ve never seen anything more than basically interesting stories. 

IMHO, human psychology and physiology can explain these things.

But I’d be interested in any cases that meet what I said in the first sentence. So anyone please feel free to provide links. No cases I have seen have lived up to sceptical scrutiny.

[Helen of Annoy]

5 hours ago, psyche101 said:

If it's a reincarnation, why would the child seem pleased to remember instead of deeply depressed? It was a horrific event. I don't think her emotions convey a victim of that attack either. 

I just don't find it spectacular at all. 

If it's a reincarnation, then there was a period between the incarnations, and if that's true, then the vague memory of true home (that, what Christians call Heaven) is still there, along with memories of the past life. Those who were lingering near death often bring the sense of ultimate peace with them and the meaning of the events in material life is not the same anymore for them. 

Also, if my dreams were actual quotes of someone's life - and death, then I can confirm that death may feel great if it puts an end to extreme suffering.

And I had some serious issues in this life that made the possibility of death seem very liberating, to the point of not being scary anymore. I do not recommend dying and I'm actually glad I'm still alive. Sort of. Mostly.  But death can be objectively desirable in extreme pain.  

And if you're cycling through incarnations, then ending one is not something particularly depressing. It's much more depressing to be incarnated again   

 

All right, this sounded like I'm claiming there's reincarnation and Heaven and whatnot. I'm not. I can't know anything for sure. But it is my personal feeling that the material existence is a part of larger existence. Immensely larger. It's only logical we can't fathom it while trapped down here, in basically ape brains. 

 

Bottom line, even if the child was only very empathetic and imagined instinctively what the last moments for those who jumped out the towers felt like, I believe, based on my experiences of physical pain and impact to the head, that the child correctly imagined these moments. They, who jumped, they didn't die in fear, they felt utter relief of escape and they didn't feel the impact. They were flying and then they were home.  

It can be a great comfort for those who remain down here. 

But no, it doesn't prove any reincarnation. Of course it doesn't, the possibility of an undying soul is one of those eternal questions, it's certainly not us in this thread that will be first in history to answer them with certainty.   

[+ouija ouija]

Yet another brilliant post, IMHO. Thank you, Helen. 

[Poncho_Peanatus]

16 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 Exactly. We don't know what it is. An actual reincarnation or just portions of someone's identity being somehow (no, don't ask me how  ) given to someone else to do... what exactly... with them... My other person's memories made me more considerate about some specific situations, more prone to understand certain type of human experience, so whatever it was, by whichever mechanism, it made sense. 

Yes I like to postulate, if not reincarnation, the mind of a person, especially a infant. Is able to create a hyper realistic simulation of said reality out of few pieces of information coming from the real world. Usually we refer it as imagination. But a infant, fresh brain, that imagination/simulation, may be so intense and realistic that's indistinguable from reality. Therefore perhas some children but not only ends confusing fantasy land with the real world.

 

t's probably an improvement if the identity of a person tends to female side.

I'm both annoyingly female (complete with mother hen attitude towards people I like) in my outer mind and comfortably gender-less in my deeper mind. 

So I'm fine with physical me being me in this edition, but half-humorously and half-objectively, it's so much more complicated to be a woman.

 

I believe you, Im just a regular guy and usually I am at the receiving end of her unpredictable wrath 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Poncho_Peanatus
I dont know...

[+ouija ouija]

4 minutes ago, Poncho_Peanatus said:

Yes I like to postulate, if not reincarnation, the mind of a person, especially a infant. Is able to create a hyper realistic simulation of said reality out of few pieces of information coming from the real world. Usually we refer it as imagination. But a infant, fresh brain, that imagination/simulation, may be so intense and realistic that's indistinguable from reality. Therefore perhas some children but not only ends confusing fantasy land with the real world.

 

 

 

Hmm, not sure I agree. Most 4yr olds won't have much information/experience to conjure up phantasies with. Even a lot of what the adults around them are talking about will go straight over their heads because they don't know what the words mean. A lot of pictures/videos will make no sense to them because they have no experience to bring to bear on them. As for a 'fresh' brain, I would say it was more of an(almost) empty brain.

[Timothy]

4 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Hmm, not sure I agree. Most 4yr olds won't have much information/experience to conjure up phantasies with. Even a lot of what the adults around them are talking about will go straight over their heads because they don't know what the words mean. A lot of pictures/videos will make no sense to them because they have no experience to bring to bear on them. As for a 'fresh' brain, I would say it was more of an(almost) empty brain.

Young children are sponges. 

Little adorable sponges for information. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

If it's a reincarnation, then there was a period between the incarnations, and if that's true, then the vague memory of true home (that, what Christians call Heaven) is still there, along with memories of the past life. Those who were lingering near death often bring the sense of ultimate peace with them and the meaning of the events in material life is not the same anymore for them. 

Also, if my dreams were actual quotes of someone's life - and death, then I can confirm that death may feel great if it puts an end to extreme suffering.

And I had some serious issues in this life that made the possibility of death seem very liberating, to the point of not being scary anymore. I do not recommend dying and I'm actually glad I'm still alive. Sort of. Mostly.  But death can be objectively desirable in extreme pain.  

And if you're cycling through incarnations, then ending one is not something particularly depressing. It's much more depressing to be incarnated again   

 

All right, this sounded like I'm claiming there's reincarnation and Heaven and whatnot. I'm not. I can't know anything for sure. But it is my personal feeling that the material existence is a part of larger existence. Immensely larger. It's only logical we can't fathom it while trapped down here, in basically ape brains. 

 

Bottom line, even if the child was only very empathetic and imagined instinctively what the last moments for those who jumped out the towers felt like, I believe, based on my experiences of physical pain and impact to the head, that the child correctly imagined these moments. They, who jumped, they didn't die in fear, they felt utter relief of escape and they didn't feel the impact. They were flying and then they were home.  

It can be a great comfort for those who remain down here. 

But no, it doesn't prove any reincarnation. Of course it doesn't, the possibility of an undying soul is one of those eternal questions, it's certainly not us in this thread that will be first in history to answer them with certainty.   

I'm sorry, but I cannot imagine a situation where going to work ended in leaping from a building on fire could possibly be described as wonderful or even releasing. Aslo, those people weren't under great life stresses wanting to end their lives, the situation was thrust upon them. They had families they would never see again. Plans they would never fulfill. Lives cut short. I would be very surprised if the majority did not feel great fear, regret, anger, a whole host of negative emotions for being robbed of their lives. I can't see them flying in any sense. Only falling. 

I know what you're talking about regarding dark days. I've been there. Sherapy was actually quite some help through my dark days. I'm not going to describe what I went through, but none of it was pleasant. To me it was a last resort to just consolidate a number of painful events. 

I just don't think it's at all impossible that it's the child's version of what happened according to pictures and stories. It seems to fit Occam's razor very well. 

[Helen of Annoy]

29 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Yet another brilliant post, IMHO. Thank you, Helen. 

Far from brilliant, but I'm so glad I make sense sometimes to someone  So thank you for bearing with me.  

 

 

@Poncho_Peanatus @ouija ouija @Timothy Regarding fresh minds, I think you all have valid points.

It's very hard to tell what's going on in fresh minds. Imagination, still illogical logic (no need for consistency yet), or actual memories, sightings... each instance is a separate phenomenon to not be explained in the end. (In my opinion, of course anything can be dismissed as a coincidence, it's not plausible for me personally, but scientifically speaking, yeah, anything that looks intriguing is just coincidence, confirmation bias. Or a con  )

[Timothy]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Far from brilliant, but I'm so glad I make sense sometimes to someone  So thank you for bearing with me.  

 

 

@Poncho_Peanatus @ouija ouija @Timothy Regarding fresh minds, I think you all have valid points.

It's very hard to tell what's going on in fresh minds. Imagination, still illogical logic (no need for consistency yet), or actual memories, sightings... each instance is a separate phenomenon to not be explained in the end. (In my opinion, of course anything can be dismissed as a coincidence, it's not plausible for me personally, but scientifically speaking, yeah, anything that looks intriguing is just coincidence, confirmation bias. Or a con  )

Not coincidence, just that there should be multiple verifiable accounts, if reincarnation etc. were really a thing.

[psyche101]

18 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Hmm, not sure I agree. Most 4yr olds won't have much information/experience to conjure up phantasies with. Even a lot of what the adults around them are talking about will go straight over their heads because they don't know what the words mean. A lot of pictures/videos will make no sense to them because they have no experience to bring to bear on them. As for a 'fresh' brain, I would say it was more of an(almost) empty brain.

Did you ever dream you could fly as a child? I did.

Wasn't from experience. Was vivid though. I still remember it decades later.