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ted hughes

Has any advance in science been as beneficial as religion?

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lightly

" The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of it's existence."   Nikola Tesla 

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Crazy Horse
8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Fair enough. To be honest it's more than one theory, but the attention schema theory strikes me as the trunk of how consiouness evolves. 

It's also brain driven, as we expanded our diets and increased brain capacity, and bipedalism freed our hands to perform other tasks, we developed compassion along with it. We learned that older tribe members would be valuable through experience. Most mamals have a strong attachment to their young. Our brain being complex has evolved a neural network. It connects all areas of the brain. Cognitive scientists have termed a "mental workshop", which explains the ability to imagine. To explain, consider the common saying regarding angels dancing on the head of a pin, the aforementioned mental workshop allows one to connect the mental imagery of the angel and that of a pin, giving one the ability to combine those to imagine an angel dancing on a shiny surface, panning out to find the surface is the head of a pin. We can make that which hasn't happened happen in our heads. Another non physical world if you will, and what I feel deeper religious ideologies might actually be referring to. In the same way one could personify  natural events as gods, and we did just that coming up with characters from Zeus to Yaweh. Spirituality is somewhat the spaces inbetween the way I see it. A remnant as we hang onto ideas rather than what is. I have no doubt many spiritual paths lead to atheism.

I think giving credit where credit is due more points at the incredible complexity and abilities of the human brain rather than something else. 

Today, in the world, there is a battle of wills/Will

What one might call, "good vs evil".

It is pure vibration.

Yet..

Nothing can compare with YOU.

Hope THAT helps?

 

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lightly
Posted (edited)
On April 2, 2021 at 1:53 AM, psyche101 said:

It sounds just like any religion.

What's the main god idea based in in the west? Islam and Christianity alike?

An unimaginably powerful creator force. A being beyond human comprehension of unity and love. 

Easy sell hey.

Isn't that what you described above?

I think you do believe in man made gods. Your belief sounds like most popular modern gods. 

Impatient lot humans. Have to have answers before we have them. Nature is revealing the secret's of the universe in good time. We have to work for it. 

I wasn't asking you to take sides, rather  what you thought about the subject of how consiouness has been explained from a very natural evolutionary process as opposed to older man made more mystical philosophies.

     (I guess if it does resemble a religion, I think it may share similarities with basic Hindhuism.   ('the' Buddha was a Hindhi Prince)

Most Religions preach that God is Seperate ,and above us.  A Man-Like creator, ruler, and judge.

in my belief, there is ONE Universal BEING which is the living creative force of nature and is LIFE itself.  

Consciousness is individual and Separate.. that's why we see ourselves as Separate beings.  Lucid consciousness  is where we think, imagine, and dream.  Our True Awareness resides in the Essence/Life of Our Being, where it Observes our consciousness.  I believe it's this Being which is looking out through our eyes right now. !  :)  (I realize how outlandish,and crazy?,that may sound to most)

consciousness is like ripples, to raging waves, on the Surface  of our Being, which is perfect calm ...and just IS ,so all else can BE.   It is our consciousness, and the way we use it, which causes all of our confusion and misery...while our inner universal Being is perfect CALM.

we meditate, and go for walks, and do a million other things to try to quiet and calm our consciousness and find some peace/contentment.

      (see disclaimer at bottom of my posts). :P    

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Sir Wearer of Hats
On 3/31/2021 at 7:54 AM, Scudbuster said:

Well, science is never at a dead end....if there's evidence to be examined, science can be conducted.

And religion is man made, theres no evidence to the contrary......and the powers to be dearly want to keep it that way, it's one massive, tax free, business.

And contributions to society vs religion..? Well, it's simply no contest:

 

Real Contributions.jpg

Well durr.... Jesus had to die BEFORE his contribution mattered ;)

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psyche101
On 4/3/2021 at 1:57 AM, lightly said:

" The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of it's existence."   Nikola Tesla 

As great an engineer as he was, he was wrong often when he dabbled at science. 

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psyche101
On 4/3/2021 at 3:22 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Today, in the world, there is a battle of wills/Will

What one might call, "good vs evil".

It is pure vibration.

Yet..

Nothing can compare with YOU.

Hope THAT helps?

 

Not in the slightest.

I have no idea how that applies to what I posted.

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

As great an engineer as he was, he was wrong often when he dabbled at science. 

I have often wondered about that myself. Some of his scientific concepts are certainly not excepted today. But, there is one project he attempted to build that wa never completed, because of a lack of funding. This was theory that by setting up transmission towers at specific location around the world that electricity could be transmitted wireless, and that the current could be extracted from the Earths magnetic field. In this manner mankind would have a limitless supply of free energy and he wanted to do it at no cost to anyone.

While he never succeeded in the concept of limitless energy and worldwide wireless power transmission he was the father of this technology and it is being used and improved upon today according to the principles and designs he developed over 100 years ago. Below is a Peer Reviewed article that explains and expands upon Tesla's concepts and discoveries.

Critical Review of Recent Progress in Mid-Range Wireless Power Transfer 

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/38025906.pdf

 

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lightly

I gotta say that I think the medical science advancements which developed treatments, in the nick of time,which have kept me alive past the expected expiration date ! :P.  .  Seem to have been more beneficial than Sunday School was? ;)

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Horta
On 3/31/2021 at 12:53 PM, psyche101 said:

 

 Millions of years of learning all combined to become what we know as consiouness

Elegantly simple yet powerful by application. And it makes much more sense than man's philosophies of spiritual ideologies. Also it's accountable to evolution. As such, I don't see how it's not clearly the very best explanation of consiouness to date. 

There's a problem there that creates quite a hurdle for scientists like Graziano ie. what people accept by the term "consciousness" to begin with. He does offer a simple and elegant explanation, but if you have ever seen him discuss it (even with other scientists), something can be obvious. People are often stuck in the "mind body duality" concept, even though they might realise intellectually that no such thing exists, underneath it all they still can't shake the intuitive feeling in a personal sense. Or to put it another way, people have trouble conceptualising what he is saying because it seems so different and possibly anathema to what they feel and experience every day. It simply doesn't compute, as they say. Even some neuroscientists.

Although no doubt that are academics who do understand it quite well and even value it, but are hesitant for a variety of reasons.

His basic underlying idea is that people don't have "non physical" experiences (though they can be completely convinced otherwise). Therefore it isn't possible to really study consciousness as such, it's only possible to study the reality of why people claim to be conscious. He uses some brilliant analogies but people can become quite affronted if you take away the "magic".

Strangely there are academics who accept the "non physical" component of consciousness, yet look for physical explanations, which is probably why the feild moves so slowly. We still have all sorts of definitions of consciousness that themselves can't be supported, and as people like Dennett point out, can amount to definitions of something that doesn't exist in reality anyway.

We also have popular nonsense such as Chalmers "hard problem" of consciousness, which illustrates the point as it's really just mind/body duality by another name, based largely on a plea to personal ignorance. He might as well be claiming that science can never explain why the holy spirit descends and animates our minds.  If we removed the bias and extended this logic to all other phenomena, there might be very few things we could claim to understand. There would be "hard problems" and "explanatory gaps" galore. Yet it doesn't exist outside of our own biases and illusions IMO.

I'm not sure this subject doesn't amount to an atheists version of a paranormal belief quite often. Where even rational atheists require scientific explanations to satisfy their belief that they experience something that is magic. 

I still favour the explanation given by Jaynes, but I don't see it conflicting with Graziano anyway. It's more of a psychological explanation, where Graziano offers a more fundamental and technical explanation. One of the strengths in Jaynes ideas is that it offers a very good explanation for the proliferation of religious beliefs.

Though I have all sorts of doubts that "consciousness" evolved biologically, in the strictest physical sense. I think it is a more recent phenomena than we believe and is learned culturally and socially. Though when differences in definition are accounted for, there isn't necessarily conflict there either and both viewpoints can be correct.

 

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Horta
On 4/3/2021 at 2:57 AM, lightly said:

" The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of it's existence."   Nikola Tesla 

Is there a definition of "non physical phenomena" to go with that, or perhaps an example?

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Hammerclaw
44 minutes ago, Horta said:

Is there a definition of "non physical phenomena" to go with that, or perhaps an example?

The Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) project is a great example of this comprehensive approach to the subject — a project that ran from 1979 until 2007, it aimed to examine if there was factual basis for theories in mind/matter interaction, or extrasensory perception (ESP). Highly significant statistical deviation, far beyond what one could expect from chance, was seen there. Another example would be the University of Virginia’s Division of Perceptual Studies, in which they explore such phenomena as reincarnation, near death experiences (NDEs), and out of body experiences (OBEs).   cosmicscientist.com

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psyche101
1 hour ago, Horta said:

There's a problem there that creates quite a hurdle for scientists like Graziano ie. what people accept by the term "consciousness" to begin with. He does offer a simple and elegant explanation, but if you have ever seen him discuss it (even with other scientists), something can be obvious. People are often stuck in the "mind body duality" concept, even though they might realise intellectually that no such thing exists, underneath it all they still can't shake the intuitive feeling in a personal sense. Or to put it another way, people have trouble conceptualising what he is saying because it seems so different and possibly anathema to what they feel and experience every day. It simply doesn't compute, as they say. Even some neuroscientists.

Although no doubt that are academics who do understand it quite well and even value it, but are hesitant for a variety of reasons.

His basic underlying idea is that people don't have "non physical" experiences (though they can be completely convinced otherwise). Therefore it isn't possible to really study consciousness as such, it's only possible to study the reality of why people claim to be conscious. He uses some brilliant analogies but people can become quite affronted if you take away the "magic".

Strangely there are academics who accept the "non physical" component of consciousness, yet look for physical explanations, which is probably why the feild moves so slowly. We still have all sorts of definitions of consciousness that themselves can't be supported, and as people like Dennett point out, can amount to definitions of something that doesn't exist in reality anyway.

We also have popular nonsense such as Chalmers "hard problem" of consciousness, which illustrates the point as it's really just mind/body duality by another name, based largely on a plea to personal ignorance. He might as well be claiming that science can never explain why the holy spirit descends and animates our minds.  If we removed the bias and extended this logic to all other phenomena, there might be very few things we could claim to understand. There would be "hard problems" and "explanatory gaps" galore. Yet it doesn't exist outside of our own biases and illusions IMO.

I'm not sure this subject doesn't amount to an atheists version of a paranormal belief quite often. Where even rational atheists require scientific explanations to satisfy their belief that they experience something that is magic. 

I still favour the explanation given by Jaynes, but I don't see it conflicting with Graziano anyway. It's more of a psychological explanation, where Graziano offers a more fundamental and technical explanation. One of the strengths in Jaynes ideas is that it offers a very good explanation for the proliferation of religious beliefs.

Though I have all sorts of doubts that "consciousness" evolved biologically, in the strictest physical sense. I think it is a more recent phenomena than we believe and is learned culturally and socially. Though when differences in definition are accounted for, there isn't necessarily conflict there either and both viewpoints can be correct.

 

I find it more bizarre that people still stick with the duality concept in this day and age. Computers demonstrate a client server architecture which should make it easy to distinguish and illustrate the biggest flaw in the duality concept. It can't work without some type of God figure. Pantheistic, mono or poly, there's still a "server" involved. That's where duality will fall apart everytime. The "server" is an idea to make an idea work. It's just compounding mistakes. 

However, regarding that non physical part you're referring to as "physical" evolution of consciousness, would that not be covered in the neural network I mentioned on the previous page? The mental workshop that cognitive scientists refer to? I would have thought that quite neatly wraps up how we come up with religious and spiritual concepts with regards to explaining observations? If agree there's no conflict with Jaynes, the human ability to introspect as he put it is what the mental workshop is proposed to actually do. I don't think he and Graziano would be in conflict at all. 

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Xeno-Fish

I'd say that the best advance by science over religion is neuroscience and psychology. We know that the "god voices" that people hear is either a delusion or schizophrenia. 

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Horta
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I find it more bizarre that people still stick with the duality concept in this day and age.

It's probably not surprising for people in general, it might be more surprising when they don't. It sure feels (on the surface of it) that there's something magical and non physical going on. There are all sorts of cultural beliefs that reinforce it also.

It's stranger when academics who have access to the science and really should be working within a scientific framework basically give up and claim it can't be understood..it's magic. 

Quote

However, regarding that non physical part you're referring to as "physical" evolution of consciousness, would that not be covered in the neural network I mentioned on the previous page? The mental workshop that cognitive scientists refer to? I would have thought that quite neatly wraps up how we come up with religious and spiritual concepts with regards to explaining observations? If agree there's no conflict with Jaynes, the human ability to introspect as he put it is what the mental workshop is proposed to actually do. I don't think he and Graziano would be in conflict at all. 

The structures and processes that allow for consciousness (brain/nervous system) are obviously a result of biological evolution. Though I doubt that it logically follows that consciousness is an innate property in humans. Though Jaynes work doesn't delve deeply into the physical processes. Another area where he differs from most modern work is that it seems to infer at least some type of consciousness and the processes leading to it as being innate. What Jaynes is implying is that without the right social environment and without a form of communication (language) we would not be conscious. For him it is a social and linguistics based phenomena that is learned.

Though definitions are important here and Jaynes uses a very specific definition that might be narrower than most. I agree more with his definition. Though I know people like Graziano put large emphasis on the social nature of humans too, not sure to what extent. 

What he is really talking about is the change to a modern mentality, from an earlier one that was more instinctive, to a more reasoned and introspective one with an inner dialogue (that's a hugely simplified description though).

According to this idea religion didn't exist before this shift in mentality, but is a direct consequence of it. The reasons for this are fascinating and compelling IMO (but lengthy). This is different to normal ideas that have religion as being an innate cultural trait among humans for various other reasons.

There are also some predictions that could be made from this (and about language) that can be found among isolated and non literate people, that seem to support his ideas.

There are other difference but overall I doubt there's enough difference to be incompatible, I see much of modern research supporting his ideas (indirectly, if not directly). Though I can see where he was wrong about certain things, the thrust of his idea has merit IMO. Jaynes also approached it from a historical, cultural and psychological pov almost half a century ago, rather than a more strictly scientific one with access to the latest in neuroscience.

 

 

 

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lightly
13 hours ago, Horta said:

Is there a definition of "non physical phenomena" to go with that, or perhaps an example?

  I don't know of Tesla giving an example.  He also spoke of  "a core  knowledge" which exists 'somewhere' outside of us.,that he said he hadn't yet accessed ..."but I Know it exists" .     Tesla was sorta Out There. :wub:

. . Personally'  I wonder if Life ITSELF ..is non physical.   (as crazy and ignorant as that may sound)  .  Yes, we can see the biological structures it inhabits and animates ...and we can observe bio electrical processes...but can we actually See Life ITSELF  .  ?    Further, I wonder if Life and true inner awareness of our being are one and the same.    ?.?

       I know how kooky my thinking is...or at least seems...so ' I'm ready for my punishment :P.  Or, I could even shut up about it if it's a 'bother' .     :)

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Horta
7 hours ago, lightly said:

  I don't know of Tesla giving an example.  He also spoke of  "a core  knowledge" which exists 'somewhere' outside of us.,that he said he hadn't yet accessed ..."but I Know it exists" .     Tesla was sorta Out There. :wub:

. . Personally'  I wonder if Life ITSELF ..is non physical.   (as crazy and ignorant as that may sound)  .  Yes, we can see the biological structures it inhabits and animates ...and we can observe bio electrical processes...but can we actually See Life ITSELF  .  ?    Further, I wonder if Life and true inner awareness of our being are one and the same.    ?.?

       I know how kooky my thinking is...or at least seems...so ' I'm ready for my punishment :P.  Or, I could even shut up about it if it's a 'bother' .     :)

He was a weird and wonderful fella lol.

So a type of elan vital or vitalism? These aren't unusual beliefs at all and they have had their advocates at one time or other, fallen out of favour for quite a while now though.

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