Buttigieg calls for tax per mile driven

[+Hammerclaw]

I don't know what it's like in other States, but the Tennessee State gas tax is twice the Federal rate. So, we would be paying tax on gas, none-the-less, which will probably go up if the Federal tax is removed.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Buzz_Light_Year]

45 minutes ago, and then said:

How's that workin' out for ya?  FT, how do they tabulate what you owe?  Do you self-report or do they scan a black box most newer vehicles come with?

When they first proposed the program your car and the gas pump would communicate with each other and the amount of tax would be charged on actual miles driven. Basically a car that got 40 miles to the gallon would pay the same tax for miles driven as a car that got 20 mpg. I'm not sure how they are actually doing it as I've not kept up on it since I first read about it. And I'm not from Oregon, it's worse I'm from Illinois.

We pay a tax of .39 cents for gasoline and .46 cents for diesel.

It would really hurt people with long commutes to work and rural people especially in the sparsely populated areas of let's say states like Montana and Wyoming.

 

[+and-then]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I don't know what it's like in other States, but the Tennessee State gas tax is twice the Federal rate. So, we would be paying tax on gas, none-the-less, which will probably go up if the Federal tax is removed.

It would take a simpleton to actually believe the government would stop a tax that's already in place.  The more likely choice will be for the Feds to use the reduction in gas sales as an incentive to RAISE the tax. It would "encourage"people to go wit electric vehicles, dontchaknow?

 And if a miracle did occur and the Feds dropped the tax, the states would raise it for themselves.  I pay about 12 cents more per gallon than family across the bay in Mobile because Baldwin county built more schools due to the influx of migrant farm labor in the 70s that never left but invited the clan to come join them...  

I can't wait to see the local reaction when we suddenly see thousands more landing in our communities.  Overcrowded class rooms, ER wait times in the HOURS, crime rate rising, and still they keep coming with no end in sight. 

People can run their mouths about racism and hate and xenophobia but around here, they'd talk sheet at their own peril.  People are getting fed the hell UP with this madness.  

[Agent0range]

38 minutes ago, and then said:

It would take a simpleton to actually believe the government would stop a tax that's already in place.  The more likely choice will be for the Feds to use the reduction in gas sales as an incentive to RAISE the tax. It would "encourage"people to go wit electric vehicles, dontchaknow?

I mean...did you read the link I provided?  Pete talked about raising the gas tax in his hearing, and the Biden administration IMMEDIATELY said that is not on the table, forcing Pete's camp to rescind that statement publicly.  Just because you want to try to paint some picture of excessive taxes doesn't make anything you say true.  Stop it with the whole "sky is falling" bit, and do some research.  It ain't that hard.

[aztek]

if you already pay tax when buying gas, you already paying per mile tax,  the more you drive the more you buy gas,  seems like what they want is to have both taxes

Edited March 29, 2021 by aztek

[+Desertrat56]

On 3/27/2021 at 9:30 PM, Agent0range said:

We have been screaming for this in PA for years now.  We have one of the highest gas taxes in the nation, and the majority of residents would rather be taxed per mile than to have the gas tax.  

But PA also has tons of toll roads so what is the toll road money going to?  I had heard about this in Texas, which is crazy because they are slowly making every major highway a toll road.

[RAyMO]

15 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

We pay a tax of .39 cents for gasoline and .46 cents for diesel.

rates for the UK

Petrol, diesel, biodiesel and bioethanol 57.95 pence per litre, roughly 80cents - then we pay VAT (20%) on top of that. 

currently the garage nearest me is selling petrol (gas) at £1.20 / $1.65 per litre = roughly £5  $6.89 per gallon. 

just wondering how US prices compare. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by RAyMO

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

rates for the UK

Petrol, diesel, biodiesel and bioethanol 57.95 pence per litre, roughly 80cents - then we pay VAT (20%) on top of that. 

I just looked it up, in New Mexico it is 19 cents per gallone for both gasoline and gasahol (10% alcohol) and 23 cents per gallon for diesel.  And we don't have any toll roads in the whole state.  But our roads are rarely as nice as any in Texas.

[Buzz_Light_Year]

40 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

rates for the UK

Petrol, diesel, biodiesel and bioethanol 57.95 pence per litre, roughly 80cents - then we pay VAT (20%) on top of that. 

currently the garage nearest me is selling petrol (gas) at £1.20 / $1.65 per litre = roughly £5  $6.89 per gallon. 

just wondering how US prices compare. 

National average is $2.87 a gallon at the moment with states like California well over $3.00 a gallon.

Distance to travel here is a big factor. When I go to the farm I travel the width of England about ~320 miles round trip.

[Tatetopa]

Remember the1960's and 1970's when the American economy was booming, back when we considered 5-6% good and 2-3% just acceptable?  We put a  man on the moon, built new schools and infrastructure projects, and regrettably sunk a ton of money into Vietnam but still expanded  Trumps economy does not look so great compared to that.  Better than Bush and better than all of Obama except his last year. Corporate tax rates were high during most of this period.  Apparently we did not see a boost to the economy from cutting those rates  down by half in some cases.   They were running in the high 40% range through the periods of prosperity.  

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-corporate-income-tax-rates-income-years-1909-2012/

1960	$0.542	$3.260	2.6%	Recession
1961	$0.562	$3.344	2.6%	JFK ended recession
1962	$0.604	$3.548	6.1%
1963	$0.638	$3.703	4.4%
1964	$0.685	$3.916	5.8%	LBJ's Medicare, Medicaid
1965	$0.742	$4.171	6.5%
1966	$0.813	$4.446	6.6%	Vietnam War
1967	$0.860	$4.568	2.7%
1968	$0.941	$4.792	4.9%	Moon landing
1969	$1.018	$4.942	3.1%	Nixon took office
1970	$1.073	$4.951	0.2%	Recession
1971	$1.165	$5.114	3.3%	Wage-price controls
1972	$1.279	$5.383	5.3%	Stagflation
1973	$1.425	$5.687	5.6%	End of gold standard
1974	$1.545	$5.657	-0.5%	Watergate
1975	$1.685	$5.645	-0.2%	Recession ended
1976	$1.873	$5.949	5.4%	Fed lowered rates
1977	$2.082	$6.224	4.6%
1978	$2.352	$6.569	5.5%	Fed's 20% rate hike ended inflation
1979	$2.627	$6.777	3.2%	Recession
1980	$2.857	$6.759	-0.3%
1981	$3.207	$6.931	2.5%	Reagan tax cuts
1982	$3.344	$6.806	-1.8%	Recession ended
1983	$3.634	$7.118	4.6%	Tax hike and defense spending
1984	$4.038	$7.633	7.2%
1985	$4.339	$7.951	4.2%
1986	$4.580	$8.226	3.5%	Tax cut
1987	$4.855	$8.511	3.5%	Black Monday
1988	$5.236	$8.867	4.2%	Fed raised rates
1989	$5.642	$9.192	3.7%	S&L Crisis
1990	$5.963	$9.366	1.9%	Recession
1991	$6.158	$9.355	-0.1%
1992	$6.520	$9.685	3.5%	NAFTA drafted
1993	$6.859	$9.952	2.8%	Balanced Budget Act
1994	$7.287	$10.352	4.0%
1995	$7.640	$10.630	2.7%	Fed raised rates
1996	$8.073	$11.031	3.8%	Welfare reform
1997	$8.578	$11.522	4.4%
1998	$9.063	$12.038	4.5%	LTCM crisis
1999	$9.631	$12.611	4.8%	Repeal of Glass-Steagall
2000	$10.252	$13.131	4.1%	Tech bubble burst
2001	$10.582	$13.262	1.0%	9/11 attacks
2002	$10.936	$13.493	1.7%	War on Terror
2003	$11.458	$13.879	2.9%	Iraq War, JGTRRA
2004	$12.214	$14.406	3.8%
2005	$13.037	$14.913	3.5%	Katrina, Bankruptcy Act
2006	$13.815	$15.338	2.9%	Fed raised rates
2007	$14.452	$15.626	1.9%	Bank crisis
2008	$14.713	$15.605	-0.1%	Financial Crisis
2009	$14.449	$15.209	-2.5%	Stimulus Act
2010	$14.992	$15.599	2.6%	ACA, Dodd-Frank
2011	$15.543	$15.841	1.6%	Japan earthquake
2012	$16.197	$16.197	2.2%	Fiscal cliff
2013	$16.785	$16.495	1.8%	Sequestration
2014	$17.527	$16.912	2.5%	QE ends
2015	$18.238	$17.432	3.1%	TPP, Iran deal
2016	$18.745	$17.731	1.7%	Presidential race
2017	$19.543	$18.144	2.3%	Trump Tax Act
2018	$20.612	$18.688	3.0%	Deficit spending
2019	$21,433	$19,092	2.2%	Trade war

 

Corporate tax rates were high during most of this period.  Apparently we did not see a boost to the economy from cutting those rates  down by half in some cases. 

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Remember the1960's and 1970's when the American economy was booming, back when we considered 5-6% good and 2-3% just acceptable?  We put a  man on the moon, built new schools and infrastructure projects, and regrettably sunk a ton of money into Vietnam but still expanded  Trumps economy does not look so great compared to that.  Better than Bush and better than all of Obama except his last year. Corporate tax rates were high during most of this period.  Apparently we did not see a boost to the economy from cutting those rates  down by half in some cases.   They were running in the high 40% range through the periods of prosperity.  

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-corporate-income-tax-rates-income-years-1909-2012/

1960	$0.542	$3.260	2.6%	Recession
1961	$0.562	$3.344	2.6%	JFK ended recession
1962	$0.604	$3.548	6.1%
1963	$0.638	$3.703	4.4%
1964	$0.685	$3.916	5.8%	LBJ's Medicare, Medicaid
1965	$0.742	$4.171	6.5%
1966	$0.813	$4.446	6.6%	Vietnam War
1967	$0.860	$4.568	2.7%
1968	$0.941	$4.792	4.9%	Moon landing
1969	$1.018	$4.942	3.1%	Nixon took office
1970	$1.073	$4.951	0.2%	Recession
1971	$1.165	$5.114	3.3%	Wage-price controls
1972	$1.279	$5.383	5.3%	Stagflation
1973	$1.425	$5.687	5.6%	End of gold standard
1974	$1.545	$5.657	-0.5%	Watergate
1975	$1.685	$5.645	-0.2%	Recession ended
1976	$1.873	$5.949	5.4%	Fed lowered rates
1977	$2.082	$6.224	4.6%
1978	$2.352	$6.569	5.5%	Fed's 20% rate hike ended inflation
1979	$2.627	$6.777	3.2%	Recession
1980	$2.857	$6.759	-0.3%
1981	$3.207	$6.931	2.5%	Reagan tax cuts
1982	$3.344	$6.806	-1.8%	Recession ended
1983	$3.634	$7.118	4.6%	Tax hike and defense spending
1984	$4.038	$7.633	7.2%
1985	$4.339	$7.951	4.2%
1986	$4.580	$8.226	3.5%	Tax cut
1987	$4.855	$8.511	3.5%	Black Monday
1988	$5.236	$8.867	4.2%	Fed raised rates
1989	$5.642	$9.192	3.7%	S&L Crisis
1990	$5.963	$9.366	1.9%	Recession
1991	$6.158	$9.355	-0.1%
1992	$6.520	$9.685	3.5%	NAFTA drafted
1993	$6.859	$9.952	2.8%	Balanced Budget Act
1994	$7.287	$10.352	4.0%
1995	$7.640	$10.630	2.7%	Fed raised rates
1996	$8.073	$11.031	3.8%	Welfare reform
1997	$8.578	$11.522	4.4%
1998	$9.063	$12.038	4.5%	LTCM crisis
1999	$9.631	$12.611	4.8%	Repeal of Glass-Steagall
2000	$10.252	$13.131	4.1%	Tech bubble burst
2001	$10.582	$13.262	1.0%	9/11 attacks
2002	$10.936	$13.493	1.7%	War on Terror
2003	$11.458	$13.879	2.9%	Iraq War, JGTRRA
2004	$12.214	$14.406	3.8%
2005	$13.037	$14.913	3.5%	Katrina, Bankruptcy Act
2006	$13.815	$15.338	2.9%	Fed raised rates
2007	$14.452	$15.626	1.9%	Bank crisis
2008	$14.713	$15.605	-0.1%	Financial Crisis
2009	$14.449	$15.209	-2.5%	Stimulus Act
2010	$14.992	$15.599	2.6%	ACA, Dodd-Frank
2011	$15.543	$15.841	1.6%	Japan earthquake
2012	$16.197	$16.197	2.2%	Fiscal cliff
2013	$16.785	$16.495	1.8%	Sequestration
2014	$17.527	$16.912	2.5%	QE ends
2015	$18.238	$17.432	3.1%	TPP, Iran deal
2016	$18.745	$17.731	1.7%	Presidential race
2017	$19.543	$18.144	2.3%	Trump Tax Act
2018	$20.612	$18.688	3.0%	Deficit spending
2019	$21,433	$19,092	2.2%	Trade war

 

Corporate tax rates were high during most of this period.  Apparently we did not see a boost to the economy from cutting those rates  down by half in some cases. 

What got slashed is the amount we can earn on our savings accounts.  Now banks brag that you can earn .25 % on a savings account.  In 1980's I earned 7% at the credit union.  The credit union I belong to now brags about .3% interest.   The way to judge whether the economy is good or not is by how well the workers are living without debt.    Why bother having a savings account except to save up for your vacation or a project.   It won't help you retire nor give you anything for your trouble.

[Myles]

5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

What got slashed is the amount we can earn on our savings accounts.  Now banks brag that you can earn .25 % on a savings account.  In 1980's I earned 7% at the credit union.  The credit union I belong to now brags about .3% interest.   The way to judge whether the economy is good or not is by how well the workers are living without debt.    Why bother having a savings account except to save up for your vacation or a project.   It won't help you retire nor give you anything for your trouble.

I agree with most of that.   I still think people need to have their paychecks direct deposited into 2 account.   Most into their main checking account.  Have around 10% deposited into another account that you do not have a debit card or check book for.  While it won't grow much because of interest, it will grow.   

[+Desertrat56]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree with most of that.   I still think people need to have their paychecks direct deposited into 2 account.   Most into their main checking account.  Have around 10% deposited into another account that you do not have a debit card or check book for.  While it won't grow much because of interest, it will grow.   

Yes.  I do that.  My savings account gets an amount every payday and when I have enough to pay for a repair on the house or some other thing I need then I use it and start over.   Back in the day when my dad was young he always put 10% of his pay into savings and at one point when he didn't want my mother to know how much money he had he had about 5 bank accounts around the state.   All of them earned a lot of interest and he was able to buy and sell real estate as a hobby and make even more money.  It is not so easy any more.

[Agent0range]

6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

But PA also has tons of toll roads so what is the toll road money going to?  I had heard about this in Texas, which is crazy because they are slowly making every major highway a toll road.

PA really doesn't have that many toll roads.  The only one I know of is the PA Turnpike...I googled it, and it shows 4 other highways...but I think they are extensions of the Turnpike.  The money from the Turnpike goes right to maintaining the Turnpike.  The gas tax does go towards the roads.  Our roads here are horrible due to the amount of precipitation and freezing temperatures.  I have seen foot deep potholes open up overnight..

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

PA really doesn't have that many toll roads.  The only one I know of is the PA Turnpike...I googled it, and it shows 4 other highways...but I think they are extensions of the Turnpike.  The money from the Turnpike goes right to maintaining the Turnpike.  The gas tax does go towards the roads.  Our roads here are horrible due to the amount of precipitation and freezing temperatures.  I have seen foot deep potholes open up overnight..

Well, I haven't driven a lot in PA but I remember going in to PA from west virginia it turned into a toll road and when I left going a different route home I left on a different toll road, but maybe it was the same one just further south.

[Gromdor]

I heard grumblings about this because of loss of revenue over electric cars.  So instead of taxing gas, tax mileage.  It's been a bi-partisan idea.  I first heard about it from a republican who was in favor because he felt the current system put an undue burden on gas car drivers. (Electric car drivers are liberals I guess.)

[Autochthon1990]

It's not a bad idea, our roads have been **** for ages because nobody wants to pay for them. And our bridges are pretty ****ed as well. I'm fond of Biden's massive infrastructure plan, and frankly if you're out of work with low skills, you should be too! Imagine learning how to work a forklift or steamroller to build a new road, set up bridges, install solar panels, clean up pollution, and other blue collar jobs. Imagine driving down a freeway in 40 years and telling your grandson "Pop-Pop helped build all this back in the day!". The New Deal got us out of a depression, so why don't we just do it again? We'll have a better, cleaner, more efficient nation we can be proud of because /we helped build it that way/. 

[Agent0range]

9 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

It's not a bad idea, our roads have been **** for ages because nobody wants to pay for them. And our bridges are pretty ****ed as well. I'm fond of Biden's massive infrastructure plan, and frankly if you're out of work with low skills, you should be too! Imagine learning how to work a forklift or steamroller to build a new road, set up bridges, install solar panels, clean up pollution, and other blue collar jobs. Imagine driving down a freeway in 40 years and telling your grandson "Pop-Pop helped build all this back in the day!". The New Deal got us out of a depression, so why don't we just do it again? We'll have a better, cleaner, more efficient nation we can be proud of because /we helped build it that way/. 

3 years ago, infrastructure was so hot on this forum.  There were two major plans that some people around here championed.  Tax cuts for the rich, and infrastructure.  One of those happened...but lets see how quick the other gets torn down...

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, Agent0range said:

3 years ago, infrastructure was so hot on this forum.  There were two major plans that some people around here championed.  Tax cuts for the rich, and infrastructure.  One of those happened...but lets see how quick the other gets torn down...

Why would anyone champion tax cuts for the rich?

[Buzz_Light_Year]

22 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

It's not a bad idea, our roads have been **** for ages because nobody wants to pay for them. And our bridges are pretty ****ed as well. I'm fond of Biden's massive infrastructure plan, and frankly if you're out of work with low skills, you should be too! Imagine learning how to work a forklift or steamroller to build a new road, set up bridges, install solar panels, clean up pollution, and other blue collar jobs. Imagine driving down a freeway in 40 years and telling your grandson "Pop-Pop helped build all this back in the day!". The New Deal got us out of a depression, so why don't we just do it again? We'll have a better, cleaner, more efficient nation we can be proud of because /we helped build it that way/. 

No the New Deal did not get us out of a depression and according to studies by UCLA economist FDR's policies extended the depression by 7 years.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/55464

[Gromdor]

6 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

No the New Deal did not get us out of a depression and according to studies by UCLA economist FDR's policies extended the depression by 7 years.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/55464

I hate to say it but that study seems horribly flawed:  They took numbers from pre-depression and continued that trend as a growth model through the depression and said that was what it would have been if FDR didn't do the New Deal.  But the Depression happened and their model doesn't figure that into account for changing conditions.

 

[Buzz_Light_Year]

12 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I hate to say it but that study seems horribly flawed:  They took numbers from pre-depression and continued that trend as a growth model through the depression and said that was what it would have been if FDR didn't do the New Deal.  But the Depression happened and their model doesn't figure that into account for changing conditions.

 

Not when compared to actions taken in the 1920-21 depression. Yes the depression that was averted by government staying out.

https://mises.org/library/forgotten-depression-1920

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920–1921

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Not when compared to actions taken in the 1920-21 depression. Yes the depression that was averted by government staying out.

https://mises.org/library/forgotten-depression-1920

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920–1921

Honestly, why are we talking about depressions right now anyways?  Yeah, we a recession.  But with the vaccines we are already looking into the rebound.  I made a hefty chunk of money in the stock market.  This new deal that everyone is talking about is to fix our crumbling infrastructure more than anything else.  

[Buzz_Light_Year]

3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Honestly, why are we talking about depressions right now anyways?  Yeah, we a recession.  But with the vaccines we are already looking into the rebound.  I made a hefty chunk of money in the stock market.  This new deal that everyone is talking about is to fix our crumbling infrastructure more than anything else.  

I was replying to a post by Authochthon1990 about FDR's New Deal getting America out of the depression.

[+OverSword]

Biden:  No new taxes for anyone making less that $400k.  

Buttigieg:  Let's add extra taxes if you drive.

  If you believed you weren't going to get taxed unless you were rich I've got news.  You are a sucker.  In fact taxes like this affect everyone else more than they do the wealthy.

The fact is that as people get pushed out of urban areas those places become the domain of the more affluent.  So who has to drive into those places to get to work?  The people with less money.  We are talking about people who were forced away from their properties in the process known as gentrification.  And who is most affected by that?  Minorities.   By the lefts own logic this is a racist tax.

Furthermore having to report how much you drive is an invasion of privacy and really none of the governments business.

Edited April 1, 2021 by OverSword