The Hard Science of Reincarnation

[Hankenhunter]

10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Hank

No intention if disrespect but I disagree, Twice I had professional hypnotist try on me and couldn't do it because I cannot surrender my will because of the life I have lived. I have seen others under the influence and wonder if it is no different than a mask party where one escapes the responsibility of being accountable either because they are an unknown or not in control of their will.-

I would be extremely suspect of older cases where present standards were not enforced and likely discount them solely based on that as it is like crime scene contamination.

jmccr8

No offence taken. Nor are you disrespectful. Your curious enough to ask, and comment.

I have no problem with you disagreeing. That's free will. I'm just helping by putting it out there. If it resonates with someone, to the point of curiosity, that's great. They will find their own answers. My answers, can't be yours. It the journey that's important, not my personal experience. I can't force that on you, nor would I want to. Individual needs require individual solutions. Thanks for your input. I really do appreciate it. 

Hank

Edited April 8, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[+Sherapy]

29 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

I guess some are too afraid of permanent death that they invent or latch onto something that'll coddle their emotional weakness.

We live, we die, that is it.

Indeed, it seems in many cases dealing with the anxiety of death is a stickler. There isn’t anything more certain then death. 
 

 

”Zen has no secrets other than seriously thinking about life and death” -Shingen

Edited April 8, 2021 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

The thing about hope for an afterlife is that one can not be disappointed; if it doesn't happen, one will never know. It's not as cruel as faith in the love of another for oneself that the current divorce shows is--more often than not--a cruel deception or self delusion. Still, better to let people comfort themselves with what beliefs they will--don't you think?

Edited April 8, 2021 by Hammerclaw

[Timothy]

11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

That is a good way to veiw all things, without personal desire to explore what you can't understand you will never experience it. You must decide what is the right path for you, no one can tell you what to do or believe and if they try to walk away. Buddhism and all its tenets must be learned by reading and understanding the path and teaching of Buddha. 

Basicly Timothy, you must in anything you ever choose to do make a decision and then a personal commitment or you can't farword.

Do you understand my point?

I am not sure that I understand your point sorry. Vague and can be misinterpreted.

Say again?

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 minutes ago, Timothy said:

I am not sure that I understand your point sorry. Vague and can be misinterpreted.

Say again?

Its really very simple Timothy, I think based upon your previous response to me your view of things in general is a very good way to look at them. 

With reincarnation you must be able to accept that it can not be scientifically proven so you either except it as part of the Spirituality you believe in or you don't. You can only make a choice of which path you want to follow, and whatever suits you best is the right path for you. Like they say you can lead a Horse to water, but unless he chooses to he will not drink. This also applies with people who choose to believe or not believe in a philosophy or a form of Spirituality. So Buddhist will answer questions if asked, if the person chooses to not believe what is explained to them, the Buddhist will not attempt to change their view, he will move on.

So it's futile to explain to someone who doesn't have the same Spirituality beliefs you do or that may have none at all why you believe in a specific part of your Spirituality. A true Buddhist would never argue or condem anyone for their Spiritual Beliefs, if not asked they would not even approach the subject. If asked and the person want to begin to debate the subject, the Buddhist would explain his Spiritual beliefs to the seeker, however he would not feel a need to debate the subject. He would thank the person for his consideration, because of the question he asked and then he would excuse himself and move along.

Ego is the root cause of disagreement, and Buddhist strive to remove Ego from their lives, because they believe that without doing so they can't continue their their chosen path to find an enlightened way to view the world and to discover the meaning of existence. 

Let me be clear, I am Buddhist and I walk the Middle Path according to Buddhas teachings. Maybe that is why you feel this way, ( am not sure that I understand your point sorry. Vague and can be misinterpreted.) and if that's the case it's certainly ok, and I wish you the best in finding or following your path through life my friend.

[psyche101]

4 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

To those asking the questions, I salute you. To those asking because they want the easy way, it doesn't work that way. It isn't religion where it's their way, or the highway. You decide for yourself. You take the journey for your answers. By putting out an incomplete picture of reincarnation, I get ridiculed for it. Understandable as it won't make total sense. There's just not enough room, nor time to do it so you'll understand. Took me years because I'm a tough nut to crack. But I did. How can something that took me years to understand be condensed into a few pages? It can't. That's your job. Want answers? Find them yourselves. I can't live your life. Only suggest a way to make your life lessons easier. Thank you for your posts. Shows your interested. But do the work yourselves, because you'll never accept it from me. I'm not a preacher, nor do I want to be one. Simply? I am. Not I was, or I will be. I am. It's freakin wonderful.

The problem with that though Hank is that you have decided you have facts. 

I had my trials and tribulations to wade through in life as well. And I put a great deal of effort into my search but came to the very opposite conclusion that you have.

Being angry with people for not agreeing with you conclusions isn't further supporting your arguments. If anything it makes them seem very flimsy. 

In my research, I looked at the path these ideas have taken through history. I get the impression your research lead you to people who make claims. Papageorge often says the overwhelming number of claims of proof, but it's not. That has been illustrated dozens of times with his posting. No amount of stories add up to even one single fact.

I'm not sure why compounding claims convinces some people. I just don't see that value in that. A mistake repeated a billion times is still a mistake. Repetition changes nothing. 

[Tatetopa]

We had debates about genetics, thought everything was settled then along comes epigenetics in about the 1940's I think.  Chemicals and the environment can cause inheritable expression of genes as I read it.  It does not change DNA itself but how the body translates the instructions. The lesson being that we are still  learning a bit about DNA and gene expression.  

So, only a thought.  Can memories be encoded in DNA by some mechanism, epigenetic or otherwise?  You can inherit how you look, your health, and to a degree how you think and some personality traits from an ancestor.  Can you inherit a memory?   I don't know.  

If you could though, it might be an alternative explanation for reincarnation.  Most of the time we forget, a few strong ancestral memories stick with us.  I can certainly imagine feeling a close link with an ancestor I shared memories with, I would not necessarily think I was them.  Good luck all.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

We had debates about genetics, thought everything was settled then along comes epigenetic in about the 1940's I think.  Chemicals and the environment can cause inheritable expression of genes as I read it.  It does not change DNA itself but how the body translates the instructions. The lesson being that we are still  learning a bit about DNA and gene expression.  

So, only a thought.  Can memories be encoded in DNA by some mechanism, epigenetic or otherwise?  You can inherit how you look, your health, and to a degree how you think and some personality traits from an ancestor.  Can you inherit a memory?   I don't know.  

If you could though, it might be an alternative explanation for reincarnation.  Most of the time we forget, a few strong ancestral memories stick with us.  I can certainly imagine feeling a close link with an ancestor I shared memories with, I would not necessarily think I was them.  Good luck all.  

That is a very interesting observation my friend, I am unable to comment on because honestly I wasn't aware of those scientific studies until you just brought them up.

As always thank you far sharing your insight concerning this subject.

Below is a interesting scientific paper on the subject, I just found so I thought Inwould share.

Epigenetic transmission of Holocaust Trauma: Can nightmares be inherited? Natan P.F. Kellermann, AMCHA, Israel 

https://peterfelix.tripod.com/home/Epigenetic_TTT2.pdf

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Timothy]

9 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Its really very simple Timothy, I think based upon your previous response to me your view of things in general is a very good way to look at them. 

With reincarnation you must be able to accept that it can not be scientifically proven so you either except it as part of the Spirituality you believe in or you don't. You can only make a choice of which path you want to follow, and whatever suits you best is the right path for you. Like they say you can lead a Horse to water, but unless he chooses to he will not drink. This also applies with people who choose to believe or not believe in a philosophy or a form of Spirituality. So Buddhist will answer questions if asked, if the person chooses to not believe what is explained to them, the Buddhist will not attempt to change their view, he will move on.

So it's futile to explain to someone who doesn't have the same Spirituality beliefs you do or that may have none at all why you believe in a specific part of your Spirituality. A true Buddhist would never argue or condem anyone for their Spiritual Beliefs, if not asked they would not even approach the subject. If asked and the person want to begin to debate the subject, the Buddhist would explain his Spiritual beliefs to the seeker, however he would not feel a need to debate the subject. He would thank the person for his consideration, because of the question he asked and then he would excuse himself and move along.

Ego is the root cause of disagreement, and Buddhist strive to remove Ego from their lives, because they believe that without doing so they can't continue their their chosen path to find an enlightened way to view the world and to discover the meaning of existence. 

Let me be clear, I am Buddhist and I walk the Middle Path according to Buddhas teachings. Maybe that is why you feel this way, ( am not sure that I understand your point sorry. Vague and can be misinterpreted.) and if that's the case it's certainly ok, and I wish you the best in finding or following your path through life my friend.

I appreciate the reply, and I wouldn’t try to change your beliefs either. 
Buddhism is probably my ‘favorite’ belief system. In that I see it as very noble and agree with a lot of the philosophies, and it resonates with me in many ways too.

I would not usually argue or condemn someone for their beliefs unless it is directly hurting them or others, and if I sincerely thought that my ‘intervention’ would bring about a more positive than negative result overall. I do however, challenge assertions people make which are based on their beliefs. (So I unfortunately fail at Buddhism in that respect.)

I’m sure that you know by now that I’m a sceptic. I was a lot more ‘open minded’ when I was younger, and I’ve said this before; it has been believers arguments and assertions which have caused me to develop the sceptical mind I have today. 

For me, things need to make sense. And reincarnation just doesn’t make sense to me.

Having said that, I of course don’t want to argue with you, so I’m happy to politely excuse myself and move along.

I shall reflect on this while currently sitting in the dark, alone, besides a fast running stream,  with owls (well, Tawny Frogmouths (not technically owls)) perched nearby.

In hopes of not sounding too corny or ignorant; I do like my Zen.

All the best, Friend.

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 minutes ago, Timothy said:

I appreciate the reply, and I wouldn’t try to change your beliefs either. 
Buddhism is probably my ‘favorite’ belief system. In that I see it as very noble and agree with a lot of the philosophies, and it resonates with me in many ways too.

I would not usually argue or condemn someone for their beliefs unless it is directly hurting them or others, and if I sincerely thought that my ‘intervention’ would bring about a more positive than negative result overall. I do however, challenge assertions people make which are based on their beliefs. (So I unfortunately fail at Buddhism in that respect.)

I’m sure that you know by now that I’m a sceptic. I was a lot more ‘open minded’ when I was younger, and I’ve said this before; it has been believers arguments and assertions which have caused me to develop the sceptical mind I have today. 

For me, things need to make sense. And reincarnation just doesn’t make sense to me.

Having said that, I of course don’t want to argue with you, so I’m happy to politely excuse myself and move along.

I shall reflect on this while currently sitting in the dark, alone, besides a fast running stream,  with owls (well, Tawny Frogmouths (not technically owls)) perched nearby.

In hopes of not sounding too corny or ignorant; I do like my Zen.

All the best, Friend.

Thank you, I Understand and respect your views. Like I said your path is your alone, and I am happy that your satisfied because so many people in the World today,  ant say that.

Peace

[XenoFish]

19 hours ago, Sherapy said:

There isn’t anything more certain then death.

Which is why life should be fully embraced. Because death is the only truth in life. After we pass all we have is hope and speculation. Latching onto that hope is latching onto the fear of death. Everything has its season.

[lightly]

46 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

Which is why life should be fully embraced. Because death is the only truth in life. After we pass all we have is hope and speculation. Latching onto that hope is latching onto the fear of death. Everything has its season.

The ONLY truth?  Might we also include life as a truth in life?  .    A friend who recently passed away..told me "life goes on".

     "life goes on within you, and,  without you"   George Harrison.

 

[Hankenhunter]

23 hours ago, Xeno-Fish said:

I guess some are too afraid of permanent death that they invent or latch onto something that'll coddle their emotional weakness.

We live, we die, that is it.

Black, and white living? No wonder your tired of this forum. You jaded yourself.

[Hankenhunter]

18 hours ago, psyche101 said:

The problem with that though Hank is that you have decided you have facts. 

I had my trials and tribulations to wade through in life as well. And I put a great deal of effort into my search but came to the very opposite conclusion that you have.

Being angry with people for not agreeing with you conclusions isn't further supporting your arguments. If anything it makes them seem very flimsy. 

In my research, I looked at the path these ideas have taken through history. I get the impression your research lead you to people who make claims. Papageorge often says the overwhelming number of claims of proof, but it's not. That has been illustrated dozens of times with his posting. No amount of stories add up to even one single fact.

I'm not sure why compounding claims convinces some people. I just don't see that value in that. A mistake repeated a billion times is still a mistake. Repetition changes nothing. 

Misread, and misquoted your post. My sincere apologies. I blame lack of sleep. Bad Hank! 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[Hankenhunter]

2 hours ago, Xeno-Fish said:

Which is why life should be fully embraced. Because death is the only truth in life. After we pass all we have is hope and speculation. Latching onto that hope is latching onto the fear of death. Everything has its season.

Try living in the now, instead of the past. Lol, "latching".

[Hankenhunter]

18 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

After we pass all we have is hope and speculation. 

@Xeno-Fish

Please do elaborate on this. I'm all ears. Cheer up bud, you seem to be in a bad place today. You okay? Serious question with concern.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hankenhunter
Clarity

[XenoFish]

29 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

@Xeno-Fish

Please do elaborate on this. I'm all ears. Cheer up bud, you seem to be in a bad place today. You okay? Serious question with concern.

Nope, I'm good. Not in a bad place or mood. 

[XenoFish]

33 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Try living in the now, instead of the past. Lol, "latching".

This doesn't make sense considering our death is a future even. 5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, 5 years, or 50 years from now I might die. I just don't know nor do I care. Because I am not in control of it. 

[Hankenhunter]

2 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

This doesn't make sense considering our death is a future even. 5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, 5 years, or 50 years from now I might die. I just don't know nor do I care. Because I am not in control of it. 

That's why living in the now is so great. So I drop dead. No big deal as death is just a transition to the real. Life on earth is an illusion we use to really appreciate life. Live each day like it's your last. That's my motto.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

That's why living in the now is so great. So I drop dead. No big deal as death is just a transition to the real. Life on earth is an illusion we use to really appreciate life. Live each day like it's your last. That's my motto.

Okay, and? 

[Hankenhunter]

No and. Just peace in the present without past, or future baggage holding you back. Quite liberating, actually. I highly recommend it. 

[XenoFish]

51 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

No and. Just peace in the present without past, or future baggage holding you back. Quite liberating, actually. I highly recommend it. 

Everyone's a preacher.

[Hankenhunter]

21 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

Everyone's a preacher.

I prefer to be called a suggester. Preaching means forcing to me. Probably colored by my ex Catholic religion. Also indicative of the old fire, and brimstone sermons. I certainly don't subscribe to preaching. Only knowledge, for knowledge sake. Intuitive thinking is more like it. I suggest you look before you believe anything. That's it. Definatly not preaching. I could say you're preaching your negativity, but that's just me. Which is meaningless. But, you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[Hankenhunter]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:32 PM, Hankenhunter said:

Here's something for the skeptics. There's tens of thousands of hours of recorded hypnotherapy sessions into past lives on the internet. Through hundreds of specialized hypnotherapists. Recorded, collated, organised to the scientific principle, then matching data is organised, and put to paper. It's all there. But because science can't measure an intangible, it's tossed to the wayside by other scientists. What a foolish thing to do. Rigid thinking does not lead to intuitive thinking, and that's a damn shame. No wonder we're stuck as a species right now. Thankfully, that's changing. Humanity is raising it's collective consciousness right now because of relaxed civilized attitudes.

Waiting for the ego laughing faces to be posted instead of actually looking for themselves, preferring to wrap themselves in a security blanket of self enforced ignorance. Yay team!

"Waiting for the ego laughing faces to be posted instead of actually looking for themselves, preferring to wrap themselves in a security blanket of self enforced ignorance."

Only two laughies? I must be getting better at this. I expected at least five. I'm pleasantly disappointed.

*Bolded mine

Edited April 9, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[XenoFish]

38 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

I prefer to be called a suggester. Preaching means forcing to me. Probably colored by my ex Catholic religion. Also indicative of the old fire, and brimstone sermons. I certainly don't subscribe to preaching. Only knowledge, for knowledge sake. Intuitive thinking is more like it. I suggest you look before you believe anything. That's it. Definatly not preaching. I could say you're preaching your negativity, but that's just me. Which is meaningless. But, you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you.

I don't believe anything. The more I look around the more I see people just following their beliefs, very little facts. All because of some emotional investment.