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rashore

The Hard Science of Reincarnation

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Hankenhunter
4 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

What would change things is some incredible discovery that changes pretty much everything we know.

What could be anymore incredible than reincarnation. That you don't truly die at the end of your life. That life is just a series of lessons to be learned from, and experienced. I dunno mate, seems pretty earth shattering to me. Just removing the fear of nothingness after death would be pretty huge.

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Even though that conclusion has been determined many times by trained professionals?

Determined? How?

Obviously not proven as I have not seen a Nobel prize being awarded for afterlife breakthroughs. 

3 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Or are phsycologists, physicians, and psychiatrists not considered professionals?

No. They aren't actually. Why do you think that they would have expertise in a field that's allegedly beyond the physical? How is that not specifically physics? They deal with live people not dead ones don't they? 

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psyche101
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

What could be anymore incredible than reincarnation. That you don't truly die at the end of your life. That life is just a series of lessons to be learned from, and experienced. I dunno mate, seems pretty earth shattering to me.

It would be if proven

Right now, it's just a cool story. 

Quote

Just removing the fear of nothingness after death would be pretty huge.

That's a human problem.

Everything dies. We have decided we don't want to. So the afterlife was invented. I have little doubt that the thought quells fear for many and assists with grief. I can see a logical human application of the afterlife idea, but not sure be that is practical in the real world. It's an evolutionary comfort.

I'm happy to be here as long as I can. I think that being able to understand as much as we do about the universe is pretty incredible itself.

Edited by psyche101
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Hankenhunter
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

I did look into it for over a decade when my father passed away. I come from a family prone to superstition and religion.

I'd say I have the advantage here. I can say I've spent some time on both sides of this coin, not just one.

How far back in human history have you researched afterlife ideologies? How many ideologies? 

All the way back. To do otherwise would be an insult to the data. You wouldn't believe his far back Re-incarnation goes. 

"How many ideologies?"

All of them. Again to do otherwise, negates the previous research by introducing bias. I didn't take this journey lightly, it lazily. I was a skeptic til I wasn't.vThere comes a point where you sink or swim. You're drinking from your own lack of research. You obviously didn't dig as far as I did, to come up with your conclusions. No problem. You have free will. Sink, or swim as you choose.

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Hankenhunter
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I think that being able to understand as much as we do about the universe is pretty incredible itself.

In that we both agree. That's what gave me the motivation to go where I did. It's fascinating, and resonates on every level. Also, you type too fast. I can hardly keep up to you.:P Talk to you later, gotta tuck in my buddy for the night. My labor of love, plus I get to learn from Mike's impending death.  He's amazingly calm about it. We both benefit from it in a loving way. He's a reincarnationist also. Toodles.

Edited by Hankenhunter
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psyche101
1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

All the way back. To do otherwise would be an insult to the data. You wouldn't believe his far back Re-incarnation goes. 

"How many ideologies?"

All of them. Again to do otherwise, negates the previous research by introducing bias. I didn't take this journey lightly, it lazily. I was a skeptic til I wasn't.vThere comes a point where you sink or swim. You're drinking from your own lack of research. You obviously didn't dig as far as I did, to come up with your conclusions. No problem. You have free will. Sink, or swim as you choose.

So if you have looked all the way back, you know it's a concept born from religious ideas and entirely a man made idea. You would know nothing in science supports the idea, it in fact refutes it. 

What information outside of human narratives exists that you have found if I may ask? That's where any answers would be wouldn't they. 

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psyche101
1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

In that we both agree. That's what gave me the motivation to go where I did. It's fascinating, and resonates on every level. Also, you type too fast. I can hardly keep up to you.:P

I'm just on a phone. :su

It gave me an epiphany that made me atheist. I was brought up religious. My family members (who are still alive) still believe. Most people I know find the idea of abandoning traditional ideas somewhat scary. 

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psyche101
8 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

All of them. 

Lol

That's how many push ups and chin ups I do to start my day :lol:

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Hankenhunter
Just now, psyche101 said:

I'm just on a phone. :su

It gave me an epiphany that made me atheist. I was brought up religious. My family members (who are still alive) still believe. Most people I know find the idea of abandoning traditional ideas somewhat scary. 

As was I. I dumped my Catholic faith by age thirteen, and haven't looked back. Nothing but an organised control apparatus.

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Hankenhunter
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Lol

That's how many push ups and chin ups I do to start my day :lol:

Would you like a list? Shouldn't take but a minute. Any particular order, or is alphabetical okay, or would you prefer chronological order? I'm not kidding when I say I exhausted all sources to remove any questions. I didn't do this lightly either. Took a long time to get there. But in the end, I couldn't deny the reality. Again, no problem. We all find out sooner than later. To bad there's no ego on the flipside to say I told you so. When we meet on the other side, and we will, you'll owe me a metaphysical beer. Now I'm late. Gotta go. Thanks for the great convo. 

Hank

Edited by Hankenhunter
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psyche101
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

As was I. I dumped my Catholic faith by age thirteen, and haven't looked back. Nothing but an organised control apparatus.

Funny enough I went the other way. My mother dragged me through a lot of offshoot religions like the JWs and BAC but when my father sort of re-entered my life in mid twenties he convinced me to come to church and I was pretty taken with that attention to detail, formal traditions and community care. I stayed there for some years till he passed away. That's what then sent me on a quest to learn as much as I could about the afterlife. That quest ended in atheism. To me it's the only way to be brutally honest with oneself. 

On the subject though, in your research you would have found that the afterlife idea seems to be rather older than the reincarnation idea. Its like an evolution of the original idea. I think that's worth mentioning here if the "hard science" of reincarnation is being discussed. 

Edited by psyche101
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psyche101
3 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Would you like a list? Shouldn't take but a minute. Any particular order, or is alphabetical okay, or would you prefer chronological order? I'm not kidding when I say I exhausted all sources to remove any questions. I didn't do this lightly either. Took a long time to get there. But in the end, I couldn't deny the reality. Again, no problem. We all find out sooner than later. To bad there's no ego on the flipside to say I told you so. When we meet on the other side, and we will, you'll owe me a metaphysical beer. Now I'm late. Gotta go. Thanks for the great convo. 

Hank

I'm more than happy to pay up and apologize if we do meet in an afterlife. Or even in this one if something becomes apparent that changes things. 

Always open to new evidence, but don't advocate throwing away knowledge for human wants and ideas. I trust nature. Humans...... not so much. 

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Xeno-Fish
5 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

I dunno Xeno, I read the article three times, and can't find what your not impressed about it. Could you copy paste what bothers you? Could the ads in the article have something to do with it, or is it the website itself that bothers you? Or that science doesn't hold it in high regard like the rest of the science disciplines yet? Just curious. If you shoot something down, you really should explain why. "Not impressed" is hardly compelling evidence.

"Not impressed" is my opinion. 99% of the 'reincarnation' tales look cut and paste to me. Like people just copy someone else's homework. So, I am not impressed. 

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jmccr8
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Here's something for the skeptics. There's tens of thousands of hours of recorded hypnotherapy sessions into past lives on the internet. Through hundreds of specialized hypnotherapists. Recorded, collated, organised to the scientific principle, then matching data is organised, and put to paper. It's all there. But because science can't measure an intangible, it's tossed to the wayside by other scientists. What a foolish thing to do. Rigid thinking does not lead to intuitive thinking, and that's a damn shame. No wonder we're stuck as a species right now. Thankfully, that's changing. Humanity is raising it's collective consciousness right now because of relaxed civilized attitudes.

Waiting for the ego laughing faces to be posted instead of actually looking for themselves, preferring to wrap themselves in a security blanket of self enforced ignorance. Yay team!

Hi Hank

No intention if disrespect but I disagree, Twice I had professional hypnotist try on me and couldn't do it because I cannot surrender my will because of the life I have lived. I have seen others under the influence and wonder if it is no different than a mask party where one escapes the responsibility of being accountable either because they are an unknown or not in control of their will.-

I would be extremely suspect of older cases where present standards were not enforced and likely discount them solely based on that as it is like crime scene contamination.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
the usual
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Timothy

@rashoreand @Hankenhunter, I posted this in the ‘4-year-old recalls past life 9/11 experience’ thread back on 17/03, but didn’t get a response from @Saru or @and then.

Wondering if either of you are interested to respond?

In my time here, I’ve never seen a case where someone had recalled substantial specific information that could be verified, while having no possible way they could have had access/been exposed to said information, and of enough substance that they couldn't possibly have guessed/made it up.

Are you aware or any cases? @and then?

In my opinion it’s similar to astral projection: If it’s supposedly such a widespread thing, and has happened for however long over human history, why has it never been proven to be happening? If it was proven, then we would be trying to understand the mechanism behind the phenomena.

It should be easy to prove, and with all the claims of reincarnation/astral projection out there, if it were actually happening then it should have been proven by now. But I’ve never seen anything more than basically interesting stories. 

IMHO, human psychology and physiology can explain these things.

But I’d be interested in any cases that meet what I said in the first sentence. So anyone please feel free to provide links. No cases I have seen have lived up to sceptical scrutiny.

—————

As for OP article, more nice anecdotes.

I thought it was interesting that the article is titled ‘The Hard Science of Reincarnation’, while including this in the article itself:

In spite of Stevenson’s attempts to turn reincarnation studies into a hard science, parapsychology is still a stigmatized niche within academia, where it is not viewed as a very respectable field.

There are good reasons for the above. If reincarnation were real, it would live up to sceptical scrutiny and be an amazing accepted and studied phenomena in order to try to understand the mechanisms behind it.
 

But all we get is stories...

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Manwon Lender
16 hours ago, rashore said:

In the Buddhist Philosophy reincarnation is a belief that is strongly supported.

Here is how the Dalai Lama, who is the supreme leader of the free Tibetan people is chosen and the tests he must pass.

The 14th Dalai Lama showed immediate signs that he was who they were looking for

According to Gardner, two members of the search party disguised themselves as travelers who had lost their way and requested lodging at the boy’s house. Although the leading lama, Keutsang Rinpoche, was dressed as a servant, the child went straight to him and sat in his lap. 

“He reached inside the man’s robes and took out a rosary claiming it to be his; that rosary had been given to the lama by the 13th Dalai Lama,” Gardner says. “The boy also identified the lama as ‘Sera Lama,’ Sera being the monastery in Lhasa where Keutsang Rinpoche was based. When the lama left the next morning the boy clung to him and begged to be taken along.”

A few days later, according to Gardner, the entire search party returned, without disguises, and brought with them a rosary and ritual drum which had belonged to the 13th Dalai Lama.

“They showed them to the child alongside another rosary and drum — the drum that wasn’t the 13th Dalai Lama's was more ornate to increase its appeal,” he says. “In both cases, the child picked up the correct item and claimed that they were his.”

Two walking sticks were also presented to the boy, which in some accounts, Gardner adds, the child initially chose one, then went to the other. “The first one was Keutsang Rinpoche’s, the other one was the 13th Dalai Lama's,” he says. “But the 13th Dalai Lama had given the first one to Keutsang, thus explaining the child’s initial uncertainty.”

In his first autobiography, My Land and My People, the Dalai Lama writes that it is common for small children who are reincarnates to recall objects and people from their previous lives. 

“Some can also recite the scriptures although they have not yet been taught them,” he writes. “All I had said to the lama had suggested to him that he might at last have discovered the reincarnation he was seeking.”

https://www.biography.com/news/dalai-lama-throne

 

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Timothy

@Manwon Lender, more nice stories.

Can I ask your view of this in regards to supporting proof that reincarnation is actually a real thing?

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Timothy said:

@Manwon Lender, more nice stories.

Can I ask your view of this in regards to supporting proof that reincarnation is actually a real thing?

Spirituality does need to be proven, It is a individual and personal choice.

I am fully aware it isn't supported scientificly, so it's like me asking you how many times on Earth did Life form and become extinct, before it finally made to where we are today. 

My question for you is why do you even care?

The information I provided post 41 about how Dalai Lamas are Chosen has has been the practice used for a little over 700 years. There many different types of Buddhism, but Tibet is the only country that uses this selection technique. Now, here is the simple rub when it come to Buddhist beliefs, they don't care what you think and they will never discuss their beliefs with anyone unless they are approached and asked. I can think of no other philosophy or organized religion that doesn't try and convert its followers. In Buddhism you must be a seeker of information and knowledge of the Buddhas teachings, if not have a great life I wish you the best. 

Timothy it's all about Spirituality and personal beliefs not more nothing less. In this philosophy there is no God, Buddha was a man who lived and died, except for the fact that he was able to reach enlightenment in a single life time so reincarnation was something he never experienced. However, all others from then to date have experienced reincarnation in their attempt to reach enlightenment, if it is ever achieved reincarnation stops. That the purpose it serves for Buddhists.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Timothy
8 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Spirituality does need to be proven, It is a individual and personal choice.

I am fully aware it isn't supported scientificly, so it's like me asking you how many times on Earth did Life form and become extinct, before it finally made to where we are today. 

My question for you is why do you even care?

Because it would be awesome and amazing if it were a real thing!

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Manwon Lender
6 minutes ago, Timothy said:

Because it would be awesome and amazing if it were a real thing!

That is a good way to veiw all things, without personal desire to explore what you can't understand you will never experience it. You must decide what is the right path for you, no one can tell you what to do or believe and if they try to walk away. Buddhism and all its tenets must be learned by reading and understanding the path and teaching of Buddha. 

Basicly Timothy, you must in anything you ever choose to do make a decision and then a personal commitment or you can't farword.

Do you understand my point?

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Rlyeh
5 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Here's something for the skeptics. There's tens of thousands of hours of recorded hypnotherapy sessions into past lives on the internet.

Hypnotherapy is the use of trace and suggestibility.  Why would anyone (besides proponents of magical thinking) expect the brain to recall memories it has no access to?

The fact suggestibility is a big part of hypnotherapy strongly implies past lives have nothing to do with it.

 

5 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

Through hundreds of specialized hypnotherapists. Recorded, collated, organised to the scientific principle, then matching data is organised, and put to paper. It's all there. But because science can't measure an intangible, it's tossed to the wayside by other scientists. What a foolish thing to do. Rigid thinking does not lead to intuitive thinking, and that's a damn shame. No wonder we're stuck as a species right now. Thankfully, that's changing. Humanity is raising it's collective consciousness right now because of relaxed civilized attitudes.

How many of these "memories" have been confirmed?

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HollyDolly

Me, i'm on the fence on this. Now in the Bible in the new Testament  forgot which Gospel, Jesus are with the apostles. Something happens, and He asks them, Who do you think i am? Well they say some sayhe's Elijah come again or someone else. And again  Jesus asks WHo Do YOU think i am, and they give Him the reply he is the messiah, the lamb of God. Or words to this affect.The Cathars had something similar in their beliefs. I myself don't believe it.Why, because what good is going and being reincarnated and doing the same stupid mistakes you did the first time around and you learned  nothing from it.

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Hankenhunter
41 minutes ago, HollyDolly said:

Me, i'm on the fence on this. Now in the Bible in the new Testament  forgot which Gospel, Jesus are with the apostles. Something happens, and He asks them, Who do you think i am? Well they say some sayhe's Elijah come again or someone else. And again  Jesus asks WHo Do YOU think i am, and they give Him the reply he is the messiah, the lamb of God. Or words to this affect.The Cathars had something similar in their beliefs. I myself don't believe it.Why, because what good is going and being reincarnated and doing the same stupid mistakes you did the first time around and you learned  nothing from it.

If you don't learn, you repeat. You will eventually learn. Its inevitable. Plus, you have free will. You don't have to reincarnate, after you die. Most actually want to. If you're a perfect,or almost perfect being, how would you go about experiencing, and learning how to adapt. You aren't just learning for yourself, your learning for God itself. It's why you were created. To help God learn, and understand. We are just a tiny price of God. If God himself tried to manifest on earth, the Earth would be consumed. He is that vast, and powerful. Our universe among others is just another small part of God. As Is other universes, and dimensions. I can't hand reincarnation to you on a plate. You have to look, and find the answers yourself. We aren't clones.because of free will, we're all different. No two spirits are the same. Including twins, triplets, or more. Just spirits incarnating together to learn together. Helping each other learn the lessons, and experiences we set out for ourselves. It's not really important the experience, or event, it's what you learned from it. If you don't learn you repeat. Boredom is usually the reason for incarnating. Eternity will get pretty boring if theres no challenges. We are after all a species that thrives on challenges. I dunno how long I would last just spending time contemplating. I want to do, and act, not meditate for eternity. That's why I reincarnated. You can't experience everything in one go. That takes many lives to accomplish. It's exciting, and fun. Even the bad times, because you learn from them. The only main difference between who we are here, and on the flipside is the meat suit were wearing. When we wear the body out, or learn the lessons we set for our selves we die. After we die, everything we learned, or didn't learn is uploaded to God. You can refuse to learn, or take your own life, that's free will. But you yourself designed your challenges, including his your going to meet your end. With help of course, from others who are reincarnated during this life. We all help each other to learn, and overcome, and to learn from the experiences. 

There's just too much information to put to one thread. And when I try, the info isn't absorbed by others, or resonate because I can't give you a complete picture in one go. That's your task to learn. Neither I, nor anyone else can give it to you in complete form. You take the journey, or you don't. The choice has always been yours. Are you going to sit, complain, and criticize, or will you find the answers to the questions yourself?  They are there. I found them for myself. I'm living in the now. No past baggage,or future worries, and expectations. Just the now. It's amazing having no worries. Just experiences as you live. 

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Hankenhunter
Posted (edited)

To those asking the questions, I salute you. To those asking because they want the easy way, it doesn't work that way. It isn't religion where it's their way, or the highway. You decide for yourself. You take the journey for your answers. By putting out an incomplete picture of reincarnation, I get ridiculed for it. Understandable as it won't make total sense. There's just not enough room, nor time to do it so you'll understand. Took me years because I'm a tough nut to crack. But I did. How can something that took me years to understand be condensed into a few pages? It can't. That's your job. Want answers? Find them yourselves. I can't live your life. Only suggest a way to make your life lessons easier. Thank you for your posts. Shows your interested. But do the work yourselves, because you'll never accept it from me. I'm not a preacher, nor do I want to be one. Simply? I am. Not I was, or I will be. I am. It's freakin wonderful.

Edited by Hankenhunter
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Xeno-Fish

I guess some are too afraid of permanent death that they invent or latch onto something that'll coddle their emotional weakness.

We live, we die, that is it.

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