Archaeology and Bible experts work together to explain the past

[rashore]

Quote

The biblical story of the Passion of Christ tells of how Jesus of Nazareth was condemned to death and nailed to the cross at the orders of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea.

Much of the story is based on accounts in the Bible's New Testament and not all of it is historically verified. 

Did Jesus Christ even exist?

Little is known about those ancient days from a purely historical perspective. Even the method of Christ's execution — crucifixion — is hardly documented at all as a widespread punishment in antiquity. 

Gunnar Samuelson, a historian at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, studied all the Greek, Latin and Hebrew/Aramaic sources he could find to learn more about crucifixion. The research into his doctoral thesis in 2010 took him all the way back into antiquity — from Greek philosopher Homer into the 1st century CE. But Samuelson found that there was hardly any recorded evidence of crucifixion as a common method of execution from that period.

But archaeologists have discovered nails with DNA traces on them at the site of today's Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, although there still is no scientific proof that it was indeed Jesus Christ who was crucified and later laid to rest at that site.

https://www.dw.com/en/archaeology-and-bible-experts-work-together-to-explain-the-past/a-57109872

 

[jaylemurph]

I wasn’t aware Homer was a philosopher. 

Or that the Bible was a history book. 

And crucifixion was a wide-spread punishment — the Romans would crucify hundreds of people at once.

And Jesus wasn’t condemned by the Romans; Pilate famously washed his hands of responsibility over him. Jesus was condemned by the mob of people who released the murderer Barrabas and let Jesus take his place.

Your source is problematic in the extreme. The writer didn’t even do basic research! 

—Jaylemurph 

Edited April 7, 2021 by jaylemurph

[Hankenhunter]

Samuelson found? But no accompanying proof, or references?

Jaylemurph called it. I agree. Just more speculation without proof. Science? Not so far.

[cormac mac airt]

3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I wasn’t aware Homer was a philosopher. 

Or that the Bible was a history book. 

And crucifixion was a wide-spread punishment — the Romans would crucify hundreds of people at once.

And Jesus wasn’t condemned by the Romans; Pilate famously washed his hands of responsibility over him. Jesus was condemned by the mob of people who released the murderer Barrabas and let Jesus take his place.

Your source is problematic in the extreme. The writer didn’t even do basic research! 

—Jaylemurph 

Even more problematic are the facts that Pontius Pilate, as a Roman Prefect, was under no obligation to mete out any punishment in support of Jewish law or custom and the name “Barabbas”, strictly speaking, means “son of the father” convoluting the story even further. Sounds like an ancient case of “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullscheise” IMO. 
 

cormac

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

“Even more problematic are the facts that Pontius Pilate, as a Roman Prefect, was under no obligation to mete out any punishment in support of Jewish law or custom and the name “Barabbas”, strictly speaking, means “son of the father” convoluting the story even further. Sounds like an ancient case of “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullscheise” IMO. 
 

cormac

Also that whole freeing a condemned prisoner “as was tradition” ... what freaking tradition?! 

[+DieChecker]

I thought there was evidence if crucifixion all across the first century Roman Empire. Supposedly using ropes at the wrists was a lot more common and got the same results, as a nail through the wrist.

Didn't someone do a study a long while back that showed putting a spike through a hand was a dicey way to crucify someone? They were more likely to tear free and fall to the ground, or some such. Much better to put the spike through the wrist.

[Windowpane]

Some informative links:

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/roman-crucifixion-methods-reveal-the-history-of-crucifixion/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14750495/

(There is a Wiki: but it was so bleak and depressing I couldn't bring myself to post it ... )

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I thought there was evidence if crucifixion all across the first century Roman Empire. Supposedly using ropes at the wrists was a lot more common and got the same results, as a nail through the wrist.

Didn't someone do a study a long while back that showed putting a spike through a hand was a dicey way to crucify someone? They were more likely to tear free and fall to the ground, or some such. Much better to put the spike through the wrist.

Yes, I remember that. I believe he experimented by nailing up cadavers and found the weight of the body would tear the hand away from the nail unless placed above the wrist between the two man lower arm bones, or some such position.

[cormac mac airt]

12 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yes, I remember that. I believe he experimented by nailing up cadavers and found the weight of the body would tear the hand away from the nail unless placed above the wrist between the two man lower arm bones, or some such position.

Actually IIRC it can be done through the wrist bones just NOT through the palms as nails would then tear through. 
 

cormac

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Actually IIRC it can be done through the wrist bones just NOT through the palms as nails would then tear through. 
 

cormac

I have seen an argument put forward that a live person would adjust their body to accomodate that and only once dead would the weight fall in such a way as to tear the hands. 

[cormac mac airt]

12 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I have seen an argument put forward that a live person would adjust their body to accomodate that and only once dead would the weight fall in such a way as to tear the hands. 

 

I can’t imagine how through the palm. 
 

cormac

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

 

I can’t imagine how through the palm. 
 

cormac

Neither can I, really. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 4/8/2021 at 2:51 AM, rashore said:

https://www.dw.com/en/archaeology-and-bible-experts-work-together-to-explain-the-past/a-57109872

 

The thing that is very confusing is that during this time frame Jesus was a common name and frequently used in that area. So when someone says that Jesus actually existed according to archeological research, I must question which Jesus are they talking about. I think these facts have confused scholars for a very long time, and they continue to create confusion to this very day.

JIMO

[Hankenhunter]

28 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

 

I can’t imagine how through the palm. 
 

cormac

I imagine it's an instinctive thing to ease the pain. Like limping.

[Hankenhunter]

5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

The thing that is very confusing is that during this time frame Jesus was a common name and frequently used in that area. So when someone says that Jesus actually existed according to archeological research, I must question which Jesus are they talking about. I think these facts have confused scholars for a very long time, and they continue to create confusion to this very day.

JIMO

Not to put down Mexicans at all. How many are sporting the name Haysoos(Jesus)? I believe you are right my friend. How many people named their children after him, after he was crucified? Probably lots.  Excellent post. I never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[Hyperionxvii]

3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

The thing that is very confusing is that during this time frame Jesus was a common name and frequently used in that area. So when someone says that Jesus actually existed according to archeological research, I must question which Jesus are they talking about. I think these facts have confused scholars for a very long time, and they continue to create confusion to this very day.

JIMO

Jesus of Nazareth, of course. Born in a manger in Bethlehem to a mother inseminated by a non-human with godly attributes. Wouldn't that sort of distinguish him from all the other Jesuses? 

[Hyperionxvii]

1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

Not to put down Mexicans at all. How many are sporting the name Haysoos(Jesus)? I believe you are right my friend. How many people named their children after him, after he was crucified? Probably lots.  Excellent post. I never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Nobody F**cks with the Jesus, dude! 

[Hankenhunter]

3 minutes ago, Hyperionxvii said:

Nobody F**cks with the Jesus, dude! 

Pontius Pilate did. For money. He would have got away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kid..., err disciples.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Hankenhunter

[Hyperionxvii]

Just now, Hankenhunter said:

Pontius Pilate did. For money.

 

Well, you have a point. But he's coming back to bowl Pilate to death.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Pontius Pilate did. For money.

Nah, that dude did his level best to wash his hands of the whole affair. It was Caiphias and his cohort who did for Jesus (according to a surface interpretation of the Bible). 

[Hankenhunter]

5 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Nah, that dude did his level best to wash his hands of the whole affair. It was Caiphias and his cohort who did for Jesus (according to a surface interpretation of the Bible). 

Who pointed him (Jesus) out to the feds? Who dropped the dime on him? Bummer that every religion had/has it's own interpretation of what happened. Muddy the waters, they did.

[Grim Reaper 6]

19 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Not to put down Mexicans at all. How many are sporting the name Haysoos(Jesus)? I believe you are right my friend. How many people named their children after him, after he was crucified? Probably lots.  Excellent post. I never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Actually you misunderstood me, Jesus was a popular name when he born. What I was saying is that there were many many Jesus's walking around before his birth and after his birth so it is confusing to know which one is being referenced in the historical data, and this has caused confusion throughout history. So my friend if I was not clear, I have that problem sometimes.

[Nobu]

1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

 

I can’t imagine how through the palm. 
 

cormac

Tendons are very very very very tough. I’ve seen a man fall from a scaffolding and have the aluminum spar go though his hand and arrest his fall.

 

as far as “is Jesus real” and “How was he killed” .... I don’t frankly have a dog in that fight.

 

I just know that tendons and small muscles are very very tough- basically from hunting and Army experiences and a cadaver I had to dissect for a class once.

[Hanslune]

Well we have have a disagreement here I suggest we try an experiment: we nail up Cormac, Harte and the few other folks and wait 24 hours to see if their palm's tear. Yes, it is a necessary sacrifice for science. I would volunteer but I took a previous lead wound to my hand* that disqualifies me unfortunately

 

* a #2 caliber pencil - at close range in '73

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Well we have have a disagreement here I suggest we try an experiment: we nail up Cormac, Harte and the few other folks and wait 24 hours to see if their palm's tear. Yes, it is a necessary sacrifice for science. I would volunteer but I took a previous lead wound to my hand* that disqualifies me unfortunately

 

* a #2 caliber pencil - at close range in '73

Wouldn’t be a fair experiment, I already have Carpal Tunnel in left wrist, steel plate and screws just below right wrist and an ICD in my chest. Looks like Harte takes the lead. 
 

cormac