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Manwon Lender

US rebuffs China over Taiwan intimidation

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Manwon Lender

The State Department expressed 'great concern' after the U.S. military warned that China is probably accelerating its timetable for capturing control of Taiwan. (April 7)

 

US rebuffs China over Taiwan intimidation (msn.com)

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and then

Uh oh... I bet Xi's quaking in his pooh bear jammies...

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Manwon Lender
15 hours ago, and then said:

Uh oh... I bet Xi's quaking in his pooh bear jammies...

Who side are you on, Americas or China's?:unsure:

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Sir Wearer of Hats
27 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Who side are you on, Americas or China's?:unsure:

Reality’s. 
No American, or Australian, or European condemnation will change Xi or China’s trajectory or mindset. No open governmental pressure is going to affect China, and will only instead cause it to continue to dig in it’s heels. 

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Agent0range
30 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Who side are you on, Americas or China's?:unsure:

You know the answer to that question already.  

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preacherman76
32 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Who side are you on, Americas or China's?:unsure:

That’s pretty funny considering you guys took up China’s cause during the entire Trump presidency. We didn’t even have to ask this. You guys were flat out saying so. 

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Manwon Lender
Just now, Agent0range said:

You know the answer to that question already.  

Unfortunately I do, but the scary thing is most Americans never realized how many people carried opinions like that. So one thing I can say that was positive about Trump, is that he brought them all out of their hiding places and exposed them to the light.:yes:

 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

That’s pretty funny considering you guys took up China’s cause during the entire Trump presidency. We didn’t even have to ask this. You guys were flat out saying so. 

Dude we never took up Chinas cause that is an insult that neither of us will let go. Unlike like we are both very patriotic and we both fought in the Middle East and many other places in Service to our country. We did this to allow people like you to sit home and fantasize about being Prophetic along with other nonesense. You have no idea what Service, loyalty, integrity and commitment means sadly.:no:

What have you ever done for America? @AgentOrange

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Reality’s. 
No American, or Australian, or European condemnation will change Xi or China’s trajectory or mindset. No open governmental pressure is going to affect China, and will only instead cause it to continue to dig in it’s heels. 

So do what China would least like.  Invest in the places China controls or seeks to control.  Unleash the gorilla that US Capitalism could be.

No one ever protests bring our multinationals home.

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DarkHunter

Taiwan is arguably America's best opportunity for handling China even if its extremely Machiavellian.  

Taiwan is going to be stupidly difficult to invade as it has a relatively narrow period of time for landing troops, limited amount of beaches suitable for landing troops, an opponent knowing this who has built up extensive defenses at those landing sites, along with difficult terrain throughout most of Taiwan.  

Anything short of a quick victory would be problematic for the Chinese government to handle.  Plus any conflict could give America justification to destroy the Chinese navy and airforce, arguing it's done to contain the aggressor on the global stage.  

With a high body count, potential loss of navy ad airforce, plus potentially Taiwan gaining independence along with inevitable sanctions it might destabilize the CCP enough for them to be over thrown.

The cost would be high in the lives of the Taiwanese but it could work if morals and ethics arent factored in.

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Agent0range
1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

That’s pretty funny considering you guys took up China’s cause during the entire Trump presidency. We didn’t even have to ask this. You guys were flat out saying so. 

Say what now?  My post history is available to you.  Please show me where I took up China's "cause"...whatever their cause may be...

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

So do what China would least like.  Invest in the places China controls or seeks to control.  Unleash the gorilla that US Capitalism could be.

No one ever protests bring our multinationals home.

Exactly. 
We should be doing the same here in Oz, build roads in PNG, staff hospitals across the pacific, build schools, bribe officials.... ahem.... stuff like that.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Taiwan is arguably America's best opportunity for handling China even if its extremely Machiavellian.  

Taiwan is going to be stupidly difficult to invade as it has a relatively narrow period of time for landing troops, limited amount of beaches suitable for landing troops, an opponent knowing this who has built up extensive defenses at those landing sites, along with difficult terrain throughout most of Taiwan.  

Anything short of a quick victory would be problematic for the Chinese government to handle.  Plus any conflict could give America justification to destroy the Chinese navy and airforce, arguing it's done to contain the aggressor on the global stage.  

With a high body count, potential loss of navy ad airforce, plus potentially Taiwan gaining independence along with inevitable sanctions it might destabilize the CCP enough for them to be over thrown.

The cost would be high in the lives of the Taiwanese but it could work if morals and ethics arent factored in.

I think China wrote the book on Machiavelli about 1000 years before he was born.  We should probably be ready for other scenarios.

You sure may be right though.  Still, what makes you think they are going to use military forces as more than a show of strength or a diversion?  Is it a feint?  The Chinese know as well as we do the likely result of a direct confrontation with the US.  I wonder what  to the Chinese strategist constitutes a victory?  Is their goal conquest and humiliation of a break-away province with massive destruction  or to absorb them and tap into their  world markets?

They have to be thinking about the damage to their own economy that would result.  Far more than the US government, CCP seems to be like a large, organized, ruthless corporation. They need world markets and can't really afford not to trade at this point. Maybe they wonder about the how to respond to the US.  At the same time they hurt us as their chief rival, they also damage us as  their chief customer and source of capital. Hard to see a win in that from my prospective, but they might be looking at it differently. 

There seem to be lots better options than military force to weaken the US but keep some of our business.

We are vulnerable to the next pandemic.  Even if there was a quick vaccine to the next one, half the US might not take it. If the next mutation originates in Florida, New York, Texas or California  China might avoid blame. even if they plant it.

We are vulnerable to grid and infrastructure sabotage. Even that could be made to appear as aging and failing systems. 

We have shown ourselves vulnerable to false information, a little more and we might kill  a good portion of each other and they can sit back and watch.  A civil disturbance will be enough to cripple us for a generation or two, long enough  so that we can't catch up, and a great opportunity to help us rebuild for their own benefit. From threats or predictions seen on this board, it is not impossible.

 

 

 

 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think China wrote the book on Machiavelli about 1000 years before he was born.  We should probably be ready for other scenarios.

You sure may be right though.  Still, what makes you think they are going to use military forces as more than a show of strength or a diversion?  Is it a feint?  The Chinese know as well as we do the likely result of a direct confrontation with the US.  I wonder what  to the Chinese strategist constitutes a victory?  Is their goal conquest and humiliation of a break-away province with massive destruction  or to absorb them and tap into their  world markets?

They have to be thinking about the damage to their own economy that would result.  Far more than the US government, CCP seems to be like a large, organized, ruthless corporation. They need world markets and can't really afford not to trade at this point. Maybe they wonder about the how to respond to the US.  At the same time they hurt us as their chief rival, they also damage us as  their chief customer and source of capital. Hard to see a win in that from my prospective, but they might be looking at it differently. 

There seem to be lots better options than military force to weaken the US but keep some of our business.

We are vulnerable to the next pandemic.  Even if there was a quick vaccine to the next one, half the US might not take it. If the next mutation originates in Florida, New York, Texas or California  China might avoid blame. even if they plant it.

We are vulnerable to grid and infrastructure sabotage. Even that could be made to appear as aging and failing systems. 

We have shown ourselves vulnerable to false information, a little more and we might kill  a good portion of each other and they can sit back and watch.  A civil disturbance will be enough to cripple us for a generation or two, long enough  so that we can't catch up, and a great opportunity to help us rebuild for their own benefit. From threats or predictions seen on this board, it is not impossible.

 

 

 

 

Actually my friend a Chinese General, around 1000 years ago wrote a far more important book than Machiavelli, it is called the Art Of War, by Sun Tzu. It is still required reading for all US Military Students At the West Point Academy along with members of the US Armed Forces Officers Candidate Schools. 

 

Edited by Manwon Lender

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DarkHunter
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think China wrote the book on Machiavelli about 1000 years before he was born.  We should probably be ready for other scenarios.

Machiavelli wrote about state craft/statesmanship not about war so isnt relevant at all.  Machiavellian, as I used it, referred to the political theory of Machiavellianism.  Getting into that is a whole other subject but under it using Taiwan to hinder or remove China as a threat would be ideal as Taiwan would bear the brunt of the cost while America would receive most of the benefit.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You sure may be right though.  Still, what makes you think they are going to use military forces as more than a show of strength or a diversion?  Is it a feint?  The Chinese know as well as we do the likely result of a direct confrontation with the US.  I wonder what  to the Chinese strategist constitutes a victory?  Is their goal conquest and humiliation of a break-away province with massive destruction  or to absorb them and tap into their  world markets?

Expedience, pride/control, and political gain mostly.  The longer Taiwan stays independent of China and continues to develop it's own foreign relations the increasingly difficult it will be to reincorporate them back into China and the less likely the rest of the world would be in accepting it.  Pride/control comes in with the CCP dream of a completely unified Chinese state.  They been promising a military take over of Taiwan to the Chinese people to showcase the might of the Chinese military to the people for decades now and have yet to deliver on it.  Also a military takeover sends a strong message to other potential troublesome regions in China that resistance fails and is punished severely.  As for political gain it shows neighboring countries that China is finally able to apply successful military pressure outside of what is mainland China which would significantly help in their political tactics of bullying neighboring countries.  

China would probably assume if they can take over Taiwan before the American military can move significant assets into the region that the American government wouldn't be willing to fight a long protracted destructive war over an island traditionally belonging to China.

34 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

They have to be thinking about the damage to their own economy that would result.  Far more than the US government, CCP seems to be like a large, organized, ruthless corporation. They need world markets and can't really afford not to trade at this point. Maybe they wonder about the how to respond to the US.  At the same time they hurt us as their chief rival, they also damage us as  their chief customer and source of capital. Hard to see a win in that from my prospective, but they might be looking at it differently. 

Once again the Chinese government would probably assume if done quickly enough no significant economic harm would occur.  Even then the Chinese economy does have some deep fundamental flaws that cant be easily addressed and sooner or later will come to a head.  The biggest issue is the gigantic housing market bubble in China where Chinese people have invested life savings into apartments in cities with no population, the famous ghost cities, or even worse into property that doesnt even exist yet as the Chinese government has put freezes on the construction of further ghost cities.  There is also a demographic problem of far too many males compared to females.  Historically one of if not the best predictor historically of a country going to war is the percentage of unmarried young males in a society and China has passed that percentage by a significant margin.  China very well might be looking at this as the first step in a demographic correction.  Even if none of those are the case the legacy Xi would create for himself by reunifying China may very well be enough motivation all on it's own as simple human vanity in powerful people cant be ignored.

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

We are vulnerable to the next pandemic.  Even if there was a quick vaccine to the next one, half the US might not take it. If the next mutation originates in Florida, New York, Texas or California  China might avoid blame. even if they plant it.

We are vulnerable to grid and infrastructure sabotage. Even that could be made to appear as aging and failing systems. 

We have shown ourselves vulnerable to false information, a little more and we might kill  a good portion of each other and they can sit back and watch.  A civil disturbance will be enough to cripple us for a generation or two, long enough  so that we can't catch up, and a great opportunity to help us rebuild for their own benefit. From threats or predictions seen on this board, it is not impossible.

None of that is particularly specific to America.  Pandemics will always be a threat, sabotage can cripple any nation if done correctly, causing internal division and strife has been done by most countries on opposing countries for millennium, its largely how the Roman's were able to conquer the regions belonging to the Gauls.

Edited by DarkHunter
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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Machiavelli wrote about state craft/statesmanship not about war so isnt relevant at all.  Machiavellian, as I used it, referred to the political theory of Machiavellianism.  Getting into that is a whole other subject but under it using Taiwan to hinder or remove China as a threat would be ideal as Taiwan would bear the brunt of the cost while America would receive most of the benefit.

Expedience, pride/control, and political gain mostly.  The longer Taiwan stays independent of China and continues to develop it's own foreign relations the increasingly difficult it will be to reincorporate them back into China and the less likely the rest of the world would be in accepting it.  Pride/control comes in with the CCP dream of a completely unified Chinese state.  They been promising a military take over of Taiwan to the Chinese people to showcase the might of the Chinese military to the people for decades now and have yet to deliver on it.  Also a military takeover sends a strong message to other potential troublesome regions in China that resistance fails and is punished severely.  As for political gain it shows neighboring countries that China is finally able to apply successful military pressure outside of what is mainland China which would significantly help in their political tactics of bullying neighboring countries.  

China would probably assume if they can take over Taiwan before the American military can move significant assets into the region that the American government wouldn't be willing to fight a long protracted destructive war over an island traditionally belonging to China.

Once again the Chinese government would probably assume if done quickly enough no significant economic harm would occur.  Even then the Chinese economy does have some deep fundamental flaws that cant be easily addressed and sooner or later will come to a head.  The biggest issue is the gigantic housing market bubble in China where Chinese people have invested life savings into apartments in cities with no population, the famous ghost cities, or even worse into property that doesnt even exist yet as the Chinese government has put freezes on the construction of further ghost cities.  There is also a demographic problem of far too many males compared to females.  Historically one of if not the best predictor historically of a country going to war is the percentage of unmarried young males in a society and China has passed that percentage by a significant margin.  China very well might be looking at this as the first step in a demographic correction.  Even if none of those are the case the legacy Xi would create for himself by reunifying China may very well be enough motivation all on it's own as simple human vanity in powerful people cant be ignored.

None of that is particularly specific to America.  Pandemics will always be a threat, sabotage can cripple any nation if done correctly, causing internal division and strife has been done by most countries on opposing countries for millennium, its largely how the Roman's were able to conquer the regions belonging to the Gauls.

You make some very reasonable points.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

You make some very reasonable points.

@DarkHunter  You make some very reasonable points. But it is also clear you do not understand the way the Chinese think, your anology doesn't fit the Chinese mind set. The Chinese thought process in based upon an ancient philosphy called Confucianism and this why applying Western though and standards to the Chinese approach to the West is a fruitless endeavor. 

Below is the link to the following information: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-polisci-041916-020230

INTERPLAY BETWEEN COMMUNISM AND CONFUCIANISM

What we have scrutinized so far are primarily the ideas and proposals of Confucian intellectuals in mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. It is equally important that we should understand how Confucianism is practiced in Chinese society and promoted by the Chinese government.

In his keynote speech, Xi (2014) explicitly illuminates why the CPC acknowledges Confucius and how he thinks we can learn from Confucian philosophy. He says that Confucianism is the essential part of Chinese culture that “recorded the Chinese nation's spiritual activities, rational thinking and cultural achievements in building their homeland, reflected spiritual pursuits of the Chinese nation, and provided a key source of nutrition for the survival and continuous growth of our nation.

He then maintains that mankind nowadays faces many serious problems such as “widening wealth gaps, endless greed for materialistic satisfaction and luxury, unrestrained extreme individualism, continuous decline of social credit, ever-degrading ethics, and increasing tension between man and nature.” Fortunately, he argues, Confucianism contains “important inspirations” for answering these challenges.

It is clear that Confucianism has had profound influence on Chinese politics and foreign policy. As rulers in the past of Chinese history, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has also utilized Confucianism to enhance nationalist sentiments among the people. Confucianism, therefore, has been served as the codifying ideology to further secure the CCP’s right to rule domestically, and to enhance a more assertive foreign policy abroad. With confidence, one can argue that Confucianism will continue to serve as a leading source of ideas in China for its effort to pursue modernization.

 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Machiavelli wrote about state craft/statesmanship not about war so isnt relevant at all.  Machiavellian, as I used it, referred to the political theory of Machiavellianism.  Getting into that is a whole other subject but under it using Taiwan to hinder or remove China as a threat would be ideal as Taiwan would bear the brunt of the cost while America would receive most of the benefit.

Thanks for the reply. It was great.   I am familiar with The Prince. almost as influential in Western statecraft as  Pacioli's book on double entry bookkeeping is on Western business.  My point was that the Chinese have been aware of the deceptive arts of statecraft since the warring states period and the first emperor.  Deception and subterfuge is well within their tradition.  You do make some very convincing points, I will be a little reserved based on the Sun Tzu if nothing else.  They will be strong where their enemy is weak.

Promises have been made since what, 1949  and the time of Chang Kai Shek.  I can appreciate their need for improving face.   Gotta wonder a little if the average Chinese citizen will be more unruly if the CCP does not fill that promise soon or  the economy seriously stumbles.

Taiwan would put not only us but a lot of the world in an economic bind.  They are a vital link in the electronics and high tech supply line.    Many companies practicing Just in Time management of logistics have little in the way of input components warehoused.  They will shut down in a few weeks if Taiwan falters.  That would be a diverse group from consumer and commercial electronics to transportation manufacturers and repair facilities  in Europe, the US and Asia.  None of us, even after covid have begun to build sufficient alternative supply lines.  No Western nation wants a manufacturing shut down and attendant economic woes before covid recovery. For us, Taiwan was an alternative supply to China.  Kind of a problem if they both go down,  Just as bad a problem if we were forced to buy from China.   Dangerous and insulting to say the least.

For that reason and not because the US or any other power cares about citizens in another state, I think the US and Western nations message to China would be quite strong.

Of course the Taiwanese could apply Machiavelli as well.  They may well assume it is life or death. I am sure your idea of defending the beaches is  vital.  Beyond that, they could let it be known that they would destroy  their own export factories.  If they survive, they have tons of money and expats overseas to help them rebuild.   If they are about to be conquered they have little to lose and nobody would like to hear that news. It would cause a response from the rest of the world. far greater than any humanitarian crisis could. People may not be comfortable with slaves, but they get downright cross when their own economies are threatened.

Not being steeped in Chinese tradition, my opinion is likely worthless.  I would guess that the Chinese will claim to have stood up to the US and pushed them out of the area then mellow out a bit themselves.   We will have some breathing room and so will they to keep working on their goal. We are morons if we don't  double quick  establish alternate other supply chains. 

Well thanks.  You are a smart cookie if I can mean that in a complementary way. 

 

 

 

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RoofGardener

Hmmm...

Twenty years ago, China had just a handful of Amphibious Warfare ships. Those days are long gone; they now have about seventy, including very large floating-dock ships, and (soon) a brace of helicopter assault ships. In total, the Chinese navy has almost as many ships as the US navy, I believe ? This includes 60 guided missile destroyers capable of firing surface-surface cruise missiles, which could be used to strike against Taiwanese land targets, including beach defences. They can also provide naval gunfire support - again which could be used to attack beach defences. It also has a huge number of attack submarines. 

In sum, China could brush away the Taiwanese navy in very short order. In a similar vein, they could wipe out the Taiwanese air force, leaving them free to bombard land targets with a mixture of aircraft-launched stand-off missiles, ship-launched cruise missiles, land-launched cruise missiles, land-launched ballistic missiles, and direct naval gunfire. Once the Taiwanese anti-aircraft capability was degraded, they could add aircraft-delivered bombs to that list. 

Their amphibious assault ships would then be free to land troops, tanks etc onto Taiwans beaches and - once they had captured a port - their auxillary transport ships could land huge amounts of troops and equipment. 

The US navy would be helpless to intervene. China's navy is bigger than the USA's and - whilst not as technologically advanced - is no slouch either. Their only lack is aircraft carriers. However, for America to bring their huge Fleet Carriers within air-range of the battlefield is to risk pitting them against not only the Chinese surface fleet and land-launched anti-shipping missiles, but the 60-odd Chinese attack submarines.In addition, America would be operating thousands of miles from their bases, whereas the Chinese would be in home waters, and in range of their land-based missiles and aircraft. 

The Chinese could hold the American's at arms length, albeit at the cost of losing a great deal of their navy (and possibly air force). So the USA could not directly prevent an invasion of Taiwan. 

 

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preacherman76
11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Dude we never took up Chinas cause that is an insult that neither of us will let go. Unlike like we are both very patriotic and we both fought in the Middle East and many other places in Service to our country. We did this to allow people like you to sit home and fantasize about being Prophetic along with other nonesense. You have no idea what Service, loyalty, integrity and commitment means sadly.:no:

What have you ever done for America? @AgentOrange

 

Fantasize about being prophetic?? What the hell are you talking about?  I think you have me mixed up with someone else cause I've never prophesized anything. 

There hasn't been a actual military threat to the US since WW2. Had there been, I would have been standing right next to you willfully. So while I commend you for your service, you didn't protect me from jack. BTW my pay check I picked up yesterday says I gave the federal government nearly 600 bucks this week. Also if you think only military members understand service, loyalty, integrity, and commitment, then you are sorely mistaken. You don't know **** about me, get off your soap box and stop pretending you do.

I have never once not seen you take up for CNN, who joined China in opposing Trump trying to make fair trade agreements. The denial of behavior you guys had during Trumps administration is outright astonishing, on more than just this subject.    

 

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Manwon Lender
3 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Fantasize about being prophetic?? What the hell are you talking about?  I think you have me mixed up with someone else cause I've never prophesized anything. 

There hasn't been a actual military threat to the US since WW2. Had there been, I would have been standing right next to you willfully. So while I commend you for your service, you didn't protect me from jack. BTW my pay check I picked up yesterday says I gave the federal government nearly 600 bucks this week. Also if you think only military members understand service, loyalty, integrity, and commitment, then you are sorely mistaken. You don't know **** about me, get off your soap box and stop pretending you do.

I have never once not seen you take up for CNN, who joined China in opposing Trump trying to make fair trade agreements. The denial of behavior you guys had during Trumps administration is outright astonishing, on more than just this subject.    

 

Wow, I was almost impressed that you gave the government that much in taxes. I also gave them some money in taxes, I paid the IRS more than 14 000 Dollars this year. But, that is about average and you know what I don't mind a bit and I don't try to avoid paying my taxes like your hero Trump. I am glad to do it, one because I can afford it, and two because hopefully that money will help someone less fortunate then me. One you are right about is that I don't know anything about you and from what I read in your posts I don't want to know anything more about you, your comments are enough. 

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preacherman76

Of course. CNN has convinced you that anyone who doesn’t walk lock step with every political belief is your enemy. But I’m the one in a cult lol. 
 

Sorry you think I’m such a monster. It must be so horrible seeing different opinions. 

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Manwon Lender
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm...

Twenty years ago, China had just a handful of Amphibious Warfare ships. Those days are long gone; they now have about seventy, including very large floating-dock ships, and (soon) a brace of helicopter assault ships. In total, the Chinese navy has almost as many ships as the US navy, I believe ? This includes 60 guided missile destroyers capable of firing surface-surface cruise missiles, which could be used to strike against Taiwanese land targets, including beach defences. They can also provide naval gunfire support - again which could be used to attack beach defences. It also has a huge number of attack submarines. 

In sum, China could brush away the Taiwanese navy in very short order. In a similar vein, they could wipe out the Taiwanese air force, leaving them free to bombard land targets with a mixture of aircraft-launched stand-off missiles, ship-launched cruise missiles, land-launched cruise missiles, land-launched ballistic missiles, and direct naval gunfire. Once the Taiwanese anti-aircraft capability was degraded, they could add aircraft-delivered bombs to that list. 

Their amphibious assault ships would then be free to land troops, tanks etc onto Taiwans beaches and - once they had captured a port - their auxillary transport ships could land huge amounts of troops and equipment. 

The US navy would be helpless to intervene. China's navy is bigger than the USA's and - whilst not as technologically advanced - is no slouch either. Their only lack is aircraft carriers. However, for America to bring their huge Fleet Carriers within air-range of the battlefield is to risk pitting them against not only the Chinese surface fleet and land-launched anti-shipping missiles, but the 60-odd Chinese attack submarines.In addition, America would be operating thousands of miles from their bases, whereas the Chinese would be in home waters, and in range of their land-based missiles and aircraft. 

The Chinese could hold the American's at arms length, albeit at the cost of losing a great deal of their navy (and possibly air force). So the USA could not directly prevent an invasion of Taiwan. 

 

My goodness I love the way you people put the US Military at a disadvantage, it's actually hilarious. No supply bases Ha, Ha, oh my God, Honestly where do you get your information from, do you have any links to even begin to prove your theory or do you just make it up as you go?

Dude, you are funny and honestly I know your joking because there is no way you can even begin to be serious!:lol:

But, thank you very much for the laugh.:yes:

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

Of course. CNN has convinced you that anyone who doesn’t walk lock step with every political belief is your enemy. But I’m the one in a cult lol. 
 

Sorry you think I’m such a monster. It must be so horrible seeing different opinions. 

I don't think your a monster, I think you are confused. Your the one that said and I quote ( you guys took up Chinas side during the Trump Administration ) to say that to someone who has fought, not just served their country in the military is an insult only a confused American would say. 

I don't care if you agree with me or not, however to make statements like that is out of line and a very serious insult. I know you can't understand that because like you have done above by throwing CNN into the conversation means that your thoughts and taking points are only politically based. I think if we were to meet and talk about anything except politics we would get along just fine.

JIMO

 

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godnodog

China will wait and work a time framework to get Taiwan "back", and this means that if takes 20 more years, than 20 more years it is.
Remember that the Chinese have a different mindset, its not bettter or worse, just different.

 

Most likely by then, China will be such a economic powerhouse (far more than today) and with its military projection capabilities, it will be able to do such diplomatic pressure to get support in "legit" way that the odds of a large conflict should be minimize.

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