Russia warns it will be 'the beginning of the end of Ukraine'

[Luiza22]

20 hours ago, Grey Area said:

 

-----, but for some reason you are being facetious.Ah you just made me smile, the wife is watching drag race, and you made me smile when I should be frowning.  I had to pass wind quickly lest she think I actually enjoy such drivel.

Damn you!

Of course I am facetious . Our rainbow friend is a light hearted little soul    but  not   to be taken seriously .

Perhaps he  also likes   drag ? rofl .

 

 

[spartan max2]

11 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Sweet, I want to get money for posting.

@Luiza22 Let your handler know I’m open to being recruited.  I speak three, well, two and a half languages, and am fond of stars, garden equipment and the colour red.  PM me 

If we are taking applications, I would like to add that I have a poster of Putin in my room 

[Grey Area]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

If we are taking applications, I would like to add that I have a poster of Putin in my room 

Is it the one of him riding a horse topless?

Lucky devil.

[spartan max2]

6 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Is it the one of him riding a horse topless?

Lucky devil.

No. He is riding a bear of course.

[Grey Area]

Just now, spartan max2 said:

No. He is riding a bear of course.

Hah I knew it.  That was a test.  You pass comrade.

[Helen of Annoy]

@Grey Area @spartan max2 What? No calendar? You both failed. 

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

57 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Is it the one of him riding a horse topless?

Lucky devil.

I bet it's one of these, aren't they so cute together bless their hearts! @Helen of Annoy @spartan max2

Edited April 11, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Jon the frog]

One of the big problem in Ukraine is the ethnic Russians  counting for 17.3% of the population of Ukraine that got stripped of some rights after a west backed government change... They put a maximum load of s*** in the air at this moment.

Ukraine had enormous stockpiles of abandonned soviet tanks and weapons all over the place and separatist had just to pick them up to do an armed conflict. Russian put their feets on to protect the ethnic Russian of Ukraine.

All of this would not have happened if the west didn't meddle with Ukraine affairs...

[Eldorado]

Ukraine turns to Turkey as Russia threatens full-scale war

Ukrainian President Zelenskyy meets Turkey’s Erdogan at a time of heightened Russia-Ukraine tensions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/11/russia-talks-of-full-scale-war-with-ukraine-kiev-turns-to-turkey

[Helen of Annoy]

16 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

One of the big problem in Ukraine is the ethnic Russians  counting for 17.3% of the population of Ukraine that got stripped of some rights after a west backed government change... They put a maximum load of s*** in the air at this moment.

Ukraine had enormous stockpiles of abandonned soviet tanks and weapons all over the place and separatist had just to pick them up to do an armed conflict. Russian put their feets on to protect the ethnic Russian of Ukraine.

All of this would not have happened if the west didn't meddle with Ukraine affairs...

'scuse me, but the reality is exactly the opposite of the Russian current regime's story. 

No one was stripped of any rights in Ukraine. It's Russian current regime's go-to excuse to meddle in neighbouring's countries affairs - their concern for the rights of Russian minority. Sure, let them care for their minority. Not with unmarked armed forces anyone sane knows are Russian. 

And all of this wouldn't happen if Putin's puppet Janukovič didn't abruptly attempted to turn Ukraine away from the EU and NATO and push it back under Russian domination. Is it the will of 17% to Russify Ukraine? Certainly not all the 17%. And even if it was 17%, what about 83% that does not want to be Russified? 

Has Ukraine crossed the border and occupy parts of Russia? No, it was Russia occupying parts of Ukraine. So there's no doubt who broke international laws and acts like an aggressor. (No one should care what excuses Russian current regime offered for their expansionist aggression.)

Ukraine requested NATO membership because that is the will of Ukrainian citizens. I don't know why it takes so damn long. In the meantime, yes, they've got a lot of armour, a lot of motivation and every right to defend themselves.      

[Helen of Annoy]

18 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I bet it's one of these, aren't they so cute together bless their hearts! @Helen of Annoy @spartan max2

Poor horse   

[Jon the frog]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

'scuse me, but the reality is exactly the opposite of the Russian current regime's story. 

No one was stripped of any rights in Ukraine. It's Russian current regime's go-to excuse to meddle in neighbouring's countries affairs - their concern for the rights of Russian minority. Sure, let them care for their minority. Not with unmarked armed forces anyone sane knows are Russian. 

And all of this wouldn't happen if Putin's puppet Janukovič didn't abruptly attempted to turn Ukraine away from the EU and NATO and push it back under Russian domination. Is it the will of 17% to Russify Ukraine? Certainly not all the 17%. And even if it was 17%, what about 83% that does not want to be Russified? 

Has Ukraine crossed the border and occupy parts of Russia? No, it was Russia occupying parts of Ukraine. So there's no doubt who broke international laws and acts like an aggressor. (No one should care what excuses Russian current regime offered for their expansionist aggression.)

Ukraine requested NATO membership because that is the will of Ukrainian citizens. I don't know why it takes so damn long. In the meantime, yes, they've got a lot of armour, a lot of motivation and every right to defend themselves.      

On 8 February 2014, the Verkhovna Rada proposed a bill to criminalize the act of holding two citizenships, most russian ethnic had both Russian and Ukrainian citizenship... this bill would deprive the right to have a house and work in Ukraine. Most of the problems started at this point...

[Helen of Annoy]

13 minutes ago, Jon the frog said:

On 8 February 2014, the Verkhovna Rada proposed a bill to criminalize the act of holding two citizenships, most russian ethnic had both Russian and Ukrainian citizenship... this bill would deprive the right to have a house and work in Ukraine. Most of the problems started at this point...

You know damn well why the double citizenship was the problem and you also know damn well that it would have about zero effect on common people.

Even if it had a chance of affecting common people among the 17%, what about the 83%?

Why is the Russian minority more entitled than the Ukrainian majority? What about the rights of Russophone Ukrainians and Russians loyal to Ukraine? Why are only Putin's followers worth having rights? 

 

The problems with Putin's regime started when Ukraine said NO to the puppet regime turning a sovereign country into a part of zombiefied USSR.

Maidan protests, also known as EuroMaidan, were extremely well attended, leaving no doubt what was the will of Ukrainians.  

Putin's puppet sent snipers at people protesting, demanding sovereignty of their own country, in their own country.  

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_the_2014_Ukrainian_revolution

 

[Eldorado]

We, the G7 foreign ministers of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States of America and the High Representative of the European Union are deeply concerned by the large ongoing build-up of Russian military forces on Ukraine’s borders and in illegally-annexed Crimea.

These large-scale troop movements, without prior notification, represent threatening and destabilising activities. We call on Russia to cease its provocations and to immediately de-escalate tensions in line with its international obligations. In particular, we call on Russia to uphold the OSCE principles and commitments that it has signed up to on transparency of military movements and to respond to the procedure established under Chapter III of the Vienna Document.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ukraine-g7-foreign-ministers-statement-on-crimea

[RAyMO]

3 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

You know damn well why the double citizenship was the problem and you also know damn well that it would have about zero effect on common people.

Even if it had a chance of affecting common people among the 17%, what about the 83%?

Why is the Russian minority more entitled than the Ukrainian majority? What about the rights of Russophone Ukrainians and Russians loyal to Ukraine? Why are only Putin's followers worth having rights? 

 

The problems with Putin's regime started when Ukraine said NO to the puppet regime turning a sovereign country into a part of zombiefied USSR.

Maidan protests, also known as EuroMaidan, were extremely well attended, leaving no doubt what was the will of Ukrainians.  

Putin's puppet sent snipers at people protesting, demanding sovereignty of their own country, in their own country.  

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_the_2014_Ukrainian_revolution

 

Hi Helen 

I am not well versed in the Ukraine - so take these questions at face value:

1. is the part of Ukraine that is the subject of this dispute predominantly Russian, in that, if there was a poll to join Russia (break away from Ukraine) would  they vote to do so as a largely homogenous group?

2. if, if the answer to 1 is yes do you believe that this group has the right to determine who governs it, or do you hold that irrespective, Ukraine's right to tis geographical integrity takes precedence?

Edited April 12, 2021 by RAyMO

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Poor horse   

Oh my God, I no what you mean!!

[Eldorado]

 

[Helen of Annoy]

20 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Hi Helen 

I am not well versed in the Ukraine - so take these questions at face value:

1. is the part of Ukraine that is the subject of this dispute predominantly Russian, in that, if there was a poll to join Russia (break away from Ukraine) would  they vote to do so as a largely homogenous group?

2. if, if the answer to 1 is yes do you believe that this group has the right to determine who governs it, or do you hold that irrespective, Ukraine's right to tis geographical integrity takes precedence?

1. At the moment, with Russian occupation in place, there is zero chance of a fair referendum in occupied territories. Only after liberation polls, referendums, elections etc. will show the will of the people (who are ethnically mixed). In my opinion, there's no great interest for voluntary ethnic self-cleansing among non-Russian population.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas

According to the 2001 census, ethnic Ukrainians form 58% of the population of Luhansk Oblast and 56.9% of Donetsk Oblast. Ethnic Russians form the largest minority, accounting for 39% and 38.2% of the two oblasts respectively.^[50] Modern Donbas is a predominately Russophone region. According to the 2001 census, Russian is the main language of 74.9% of residents in Donetsk Oblast and 68.8% in Luhansk Oblast.^[51] The proportion of native Russian-speakers is higher than ethnic Russians because some ethnic Ukrainians and other nationalities also indicate Russian as their mother tongue.^{[citation needed]}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea

In 2014 after Russian annexation of Crimea new authorities conducted a census. According to the census result the population of the Crimean Federal District is 2.2844 million people. The ethnic composition is as follows: Russians: 1.49 million (65.3%), Ukrainians: 0.35 million (15.1%), Crimean Tatars: 0.24 million (12.0%).^[16][25] Official Ukrainian authorities and Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People claimed doubts that the results of population census in Crimea represent the facts.^[26]

A survey in May 2013, asked respondents what language they spoke at home:^[27]

• 82% Russian
• 10% Crimean Tatar
• 3% Russian and Ukrainian equally
• 3% Russian and another language equally
• 2% Ukrainian

 

Important fact: Russian is primary language for many people of other nationalites too. A bit similar to English being primary language for a lot of people in the UK who are not English by nationality. Unlike it is in the UK, speaking Russian as primary language is taken as the proof of belonging to the Russian ethnic corpus by expansionist Russian ideology. (Similar scheme was attempted in ex-Yu, where all South Slavic languages were claimed by Greater Serbian ideologists to be variations of Serbian language, thus proving everyone's just Serbian. Not to digress, it's so false my brain is bleeding from irritation.) 

 

2. Generally, yes, I do believe any group has the right to determine who governs it, within legal and common sense limits - that clearly include that such choice cannot be forced, extorted or gained by illegal and dishonest means. 

 

 

Now the rant. I honestly do not recommend anyone to actually read it   But this issue is so very emotional for me I must rant a little. 

It's the same type of problem Croatia had with parts occupied by Milošević's chetnik units, with intention to ethnically cleanse them and assimilate into Greater Serbia. 

Both my country 30tish years ago and Ukraine 6 or so years ago were attacked by irregular and illegal units that had all the support from the hostile neighbouring regimes, that used to share the federation with, and whose intentions are expansionist.    

The population in occupied territories is mixed, so the exact ratio cannot be the decisive factor. You can't throw minority out just because it's minority and you can't simply change country's border because someone would like it better. That's what Milošević wanted with Croatian Krajina (to throw Croats out and expand Serbia into internationally recognized and indisputable Croatian territory) and what Putin wants with Ukrainian Donbass (to throw Ukrainians out and expand Russian into internationally recognized and indisputable Ukrainian territory).  

Was Ukrainian sovereignty and border internationally recognized? Yes. So if someone feels like disputing it, there are legal mechanisms to do so. With predictable result - no changing of borders just because someone wants a chunk of neighbouring country. 

 

Concern for Russian and Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine as the excuse for the obvious invasion and occupation is particular hypocrisy. If Putin cared for Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine he wouldn't wreck their lives, turn them against their countrymen and put them in mortal danger.

What Putin cares for are the warm ports in Azov and Black Sea, and Donbass industry. Ukraine was the centre of military industry in former USSR. That's what he cares for, not the people who are now forcefully detached from their, Ukrainian country, while not being a part of Russia either. 

 

It is extremely irritating when the choice of Ukrainian majority (to start joining EU and NATO, and generally turn to the future and to the West, instead of going backwards into some sort of resurrected USSR) is falsely reduced to western encroaching or whatever. 

Proximity of West integrations makes Putin nervous? So? Since when is that a valid excuse for an actual armed insurrection against the legal government that does have the support of the majority of country's citizens? 

Brothers are lobbing grenades at each other because he was nervous. Take Valium then, god damn your nervousness. And get out of a sovereign country. Can't stand NATO at your doorstep? So why didn't you show Ukraine friendship that would make them choose reintegration instead of reEuropeization? 

I'm airing my grievance here, obviously  It's just... ah! 

No use in telling what 5+ years of war is like to someone who wasn't there. I was there. I wish that upon no one. It's pushed upon Ukraine. People are being blown to pieces, for what? For vanity and insecurity, for greed and stupidity. 

 

But I don't blame common Russians in Ukraine. I know the scheme: local criminals and various secret service members form the illegal units, get support from the expansionist regime, common people must shut up, cooperate or lose their heads. It was the same over here - no Serb in occupied territory could say they are against brother-murdering war and Greater Serbian terror. They were killed like any Croat if they weren't toeing the chetnik line. They had no right to say that they'd rather keep on living together with their neighbours, be loyal to their country. No. They were forced to risk and ruin everything for an expansionist attempt. 

I blame Putin and his outdated ideas. He's clearly trying to grab the strategic parts of Ukraine, screw everyone, Russians included, whose life was ruined because of that.   

[Eldorado]

Nato’s secretary general has called on Russia to halt its military buildup around Ukraine, describing it as “unjustified, unexplained and deeply concerning”.

Flanked by Ukraine’s foreign minister at a press conference on Tuesday morning, Nato’s Jens Stoltenberg said Russia had moved thousands of combat troops to Ukraine’s borders in “the largest massing of Russian troops since the illegal annexation of Crimea in 2014”.

The head of the western military alliance, addressing Moscow directly, added: “Russia must end this military buildup in and around Ukraine, stop its provocations and de-escalate immediately.”

UK Guardian report

[RAyMO]

@Helen of Annoy

thank you for that detailed and indeed in many parts personal response. 

it was enlightening, its often too easy for people like me, too far removed from the situation and the history, to entertain ideas and ideologies that are not sustainable with a deeper understanding. 

Thank you. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by RAyMO

[Eldorado]

De-escalation in Ukraine is only possible if the Ukrainian Armed Forces abandon provocative actions, Kremlin Spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Wednesday.

"We consider all concern expressed by whomever, including the US, over the movement of our armed forces on Russian territory, groundless.

De-escalation on the territory of Ukraine can happen only if the Ukrainian armed forces abandon provocative actions," he said, answering a question on whether the Russian and US leaders came to an understanding when it comes to Ukraine during their phone call on Tuesday.

https://tass.com/politics/1277803

Ukraine's armed forces rehearsed repelling a tank and infantry attack near the border of Russian-annexed Crimea on Wednesday, the Ukrainian military said in a statement.

The drills came a day after U.S. President Joe Biden phoned Russian President Vladimir to discuss a build-up of Russian troops near eastern Ukraine and in Crimea, among other U.S. concerns.

Reuters report

[Eldorado]

Russian forces gathering at the border with Ukraine have reportedly started painting “invasion stripes” on their vehicles amid simmering tensions in the region.

Armoured BTR 80 vehicles painted with the markings were spotted heading in convoy to the railway station yesterday in Astrakhan, 350 miles from the frontline, according to the Mirror.

The markings has raised concerns among military experts, who say it is similar to the stripes on tanks used by the Soviet Army during the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/russia-invasion-ukraine-war-assault-vehicles-troops-b929750.html

[Eldorado]

The European Union stands by Ukraine, the head of the bloc's execuive said on Friday in announcing first deliveries of COVID-19 vaccines to the former Soviet republic through COVAX, a global network for jab distribution.

Reuters report

[stevewinn]

Reports that Russia as said it would be best if the US Ambassador in Moscow returns to the US.

[Duke Wellington]

On 4/9/2021 at 2:11 PM, itsnotoutthere said:

A senior Kremlin official has warned that if Russia is 'forced' to defend its citizens in the disputed Donbass region it would be 'the beginning of the end of Ukraine.'

Tensions have soared in eastern Ukraine in recent weeks after Vladimir Putin dispatched tanks, helicopters and tens of thousands of troops to the Ukrainian border.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov today said the situation in eastern Ukraine was 'very unstable' and warned it risked leading to 'full-scale combat operations.' 

Putin insists the build up of military hardware close to the border is defensive and that upcoming drills are part of routine 'combat readiness' inspections. 

But the deputy head of Russia's presidential administration, Dmitry Kozak, jangled nerves on Thursday as he warned that: 'The start of military action - this would be the beginning of the end of Ukraine.'  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9449997/Russia-warns-beginning-end-Ukraine-imminent-defend-citizens.html

When push comes to shove American, French, and British troops, are not going to be willing to fight Russians because it risks a nuclear supernova. And vice versa. If it comes down to it everyone will abandon Ukraine to avoid a moment of thermal nuclear glory.

Millions of Brits arent willing to die to help the Ukrainians.