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rashore

Poltergeists? Ghosts are just people, too

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papageorge1

I liked the article. I think it is time to get the paranormal 'normalized' down to the level of helping regular people. Right now there is very little advice for experiencers beyond getting their physical environment checked out and getting mental/physical evaluations. Now that we have the internet and cable TV stations I believe real ghost phenomena may be 'fairly rare' but not 'all that rare' either.

I see it on this forum and elsewhere that people are just looking for straightforward assistance and are not out to prove themselves to non-believers in such phenomena. This author seems to be one that supplies such assistance.

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XenoFish

People haunt themselves.

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Grey Area
2 minutes ago, TashaMarie said:

If there is a ghost in my house it can start paying rent and help with the housework.

that was similar to my thoughts, they need to start observing the laws a bit better.  Particularly around trespassing.

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rashore
1 minute ago, TashaMarie said:

If there is a ghost in my house it can start paying rent and help with the housework.

No kidding. I got rid of mine by demanding it fix whatever the heck it was knocking on and get on with it or I would sic the BBB on them. Got that ghost out of my basement real quick. :rolleyes::lol:

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rashore

Thread cleaned. Folks, stop talking about each other. It's a fun opinion piece, no need to get personal. 

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acute

:tu:

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Orphalesion

I thought Poltergeists were believed to be psychic phenomena, possible caused by living people?

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bison

That's  the up-to-date take on 'poltergeists'. Some form of unconscious energy from individual persons, expressed as repeated instances of spontaneous psychokinesis. Science has not been able to find the energy that turns ideas into external actions. I strongly suspect that human thoughts can affect reality directly, in small ways. If reality is itself merely an idea, albeit a very strong and convincing one, it makes sense that our own thoughts may be able to affect it, to a small, and localized degree.

I've had infrequent spontaneous psychokinesis happen around me for decades. Some of the manifestations strike me as being remarkably dexterous, and sometimes even helpful.     

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papageorge1
17 hours ago, bison said:

That's  the up-to-date take on 'poltergeists'. Some form of unconscious energy from individual persons, expressed as repeated instances of spontaneous psychokinesis. Science has not been able to find the energy that turns ideas into external actions. I strongly suspect that human thoughts can affect reality directly, in small ways. If reality is itself merely an idea, albeit a very strong and convincing one, it makes sense that our own thoughts may be able to affect it, to a small, and localized degree.

I've had infrequent spontaneous psychokinesis happen around me for decades. Some of the manifestations strike me as being remarkably dexterous, and sometimes even helpful.     

I am thinking there might be multiple types of phenomena given the 'poltergeist' label. The spontaneous psychokinesis of living people and also the actions of non-physical entities.  And a third theory of non-physical entities harnessing the energy given off by strongly emotional individuals (most commonly emotionally troubled teen age girls).

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bison
Posted (edited)

In addition to those three categories, we should probably consider a forth: The conscious use of psychokinesis by corporeal beings more advanced along these lines than ourselves, so, presumably extraterrestrials.

There is a persistent, otherwise puzzling, connection of recent alleged UFO/ET close encounters, and the onset of apparent psychokinetic events around these experiencers.

It stands to reason that if humans have the beginnings of psychokinetic powers, at least unconsciously, that older and more advanced ET species would have more of the same, and, perhaps, conscious access to these powers.

I wonder if conscious PK would be biased toward more dexterous and interactive experiences than the unconscious (human) variety.   

Edited by bison
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XenoFish

Oh, boy. Here we go again......

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papageorge1

 

8 minutes ago, Paratheorist said:

I agree. Poltergeist activity can be caused by young children with telekinetic abilities. Spirits can also cause similar disturbances, but I would call them a mischievous ghost, rather than a poltergeist. I don't know about the third kind. Is that like a specter working in conjunction with a young living person to generate unexplainable events?

Nice to see a fellow believer on this forum. I was just thinking maybe an entity that absorbs human emotional energy can throw a hairbrush across a room or something. Like why with random PK would one particular object get disturbed?

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XenoFish
On 4/12/2021 at 2:35 PM, bison said:

In addition to those three categories, we should probably consider a forth: The conscious use of psychokinesis by corporeal beings more advanced along these lines than ourselves, so, presumably extraterrestrials.

There is a persistent, otherwise puzzling, connection of recent alleged UFO/ET close encounters, and the onset of apparent psychokinetic events around these experiencers.

It stands to reason that if humans have the beginnings of psychokinetic powers, at least unconsciously, that older and more advanced ET species would have more of the same, and, perhaps, conscious access to these powers.

I wonder if conscious PK would be biased toward more dexterous and interactive experiences than the unconscious (human) variety.   

The problem with testing PK is that it is supposedly sporadic. Most of the tale revolve around emotionally unstable people, that some how, magically make stuff move without touching it. 

If PK/TK were a real thing. It would first have to be made conscious, as in intentional. A person would have to let's say levitate a six sided die. They do this once per day till it become habit. What was once a unconscious activity become conscious and once it become a conscious activity, it become a subconscious habit. Not too different from learning a new skill. 

However there is nothing that legitimately indicates such thought manifestation is possible. I suspect it would take a high level of mental focus and clarity that nearly no one could do. 

Like a lot of fanciful "powers" so what. Sure I get the idea of it being extremely useful in space, maybe even underwater. On average it serves no real purpose. 

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papageorge1
18 minutes ago, Paratheorist said:

That is an interesting theory. I have an article about poltergeist. I would be interested in adding your idea to paratheories. The information is at; AlternatePoltergeist 

Hey, I like you already. One thought I have about child random psychokinesis causing poltergeist claims is why a particular object like a particular item of silverware goes flying. Why that particular object? Is there an intelligent unseen agent involved too?

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Desertrat56
15 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The problem with testing PK is that it is supposedly sporadic. Most of the tale revolve around emotionally unstable people, that some how, magically make stuff move without touching it. 

If PK/TK were a real thing. It would first have to be made conscious, as in intentional. A person would have to let's say levitate a six sided die. They do this once per day till it become habit. What was once a unconscious activity become conscious and once it become a conscious activity, it become a subconscious habit. Not too different from learning a new skill. 

However there is nothing that legitimately indicates such thought manifestation is possible. I suspect it would take a high level of mental focus and clarity that nearly no one could do. 

Like a lot of fanciful "powers" so what. Sure I get the idea of it being extremely useful in space, maybe even underwater. On average it serves no real purpose. 

I think it can happen.  The day my dad was taken by the police to a mental facility I was baking cookies with my grandson in the kitchen he built but had not been in in 20 years.   When I put the spices back in the cupboard and closed the door turning my back on it to the counter the door flew open and all the spices flew out, most hitting me in the head.    Later, my dad told me it was my fault he was put in that institution even though I knew nothing about what was going on with him.   Since I am convinced our consciousness does not reside solely in our brain (brain is communications device from consciousness to the physical) it is not far fetched for me to believe that PK is real, and poltergeist activity is usually perpetrated by mentally/emotionally unstable individuals.   

I know you and others disagree and that is fine, I am not concerned with convincing anyone but I will state my position.

 

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bison
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The problem with testing PK is that it is supposedly sporadic. Most of the tale revolve around emotionally unstable people, that some how, magically make stuff move without touching it. 

If PK/TK were a real thing. It would first have to be made conscious, as in intentional. A person would have to let's say levitate a six sided die. They do this once per day till it become habit. What was once a unconscious activity become conscious and once it become a conscious activity, it become a subconscious habit. Not too different from learning a new skill. 

However there is nothing that legitimately indicates such thought manifestation is possible. I suspect it would take a high level of mental focus and clarity that nearly no one could do. 

Like a lot of fanciful "powers" so what. Sure I get the idea of it being extremely useful in space, maybe even underwater. On average it serves no real purpose. 

Science manages to study many sporadic, unpredictable phenomena. It is not, as it is currently practiced, very efficient at discerning these in the first place. This is why 'rocks falling from the sky' was considered nonsense until well into the 19th century. Today, meteorites seem a rather tame idea in science, without much controversy. 

After a conversation about a device called a 'psi-wheel', on a thread in this forum, I set up an improved version of this device. It's supposed to turn about in response to psychokinesis. 

It's simply a lightweight paper square folded so as to make movement easier to see. It's suspended on a needle point, so that it can turn easily.  I added a glass cover to keep out drafts and heat, which might cause it to move. I placed the device on a soft base, which tended to absorb vibrations before they could affect it. 

I used a small glass brandy snifter with 12 fluted ribs, equidistant around its circumference. These serve as a scale against which movement of the paper rotor can be measured. I marked one of the four points on the paper square, to help keep track of its movements. 

I tried to consciously move the rotor many times, without success. I then let it alone, checking it occasionally, to see it any movement had occurred. I did notice a small, but obvious change in the position of the Psi-wheel, on one occasion. Ordinary explanations such as vibration, or the heating action of sunlight upon the glass cover were ruled out as these had occurred frequently, without  affecting the wheel in any discernible way.

This infrequent sort of psychokinesis is consonant with my experience of it here, over the years.   

Edited by bison
improved exposition
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papageorge1
2 minutes ago, Paratheorist said:

Good question. I think a young boy or girl could be generating PK either consciously or subconsciously. They may not be aware that they are doing anything, in which case the object that moves is probably random. But if they are knowingly causing things to fly around, then the child could choose the item they act upon. As you said before, energy from the young person could emanate to a spiritual entity and the specter might also participate in the poltergeist phenomena.  

I think though that any child that can consciously  control what goes flying in these poltergeist cases would be almost an unheard of thing. The question that intrigues me is why one object and not another?

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Desertrat56
36 minutes ago, bison said:

Science manages to study many sporadic, unpredictable phenomena. It is not, as it is currently practiced, very efficient at discerning these in the first place. This is why 'rocks falling from the sky' was considered nonsense until well into the 19th century. Today, meteorites seem a rather tame idea in science, without much controversy. 

After a conversation about a device called a 'psi-wheel', on a thread in this forum, I set up an improved version of this device. It's supposed to turn about in response to psychokinesis. 

It's simply a lightweight paper square folded so as to make movement easier to see. It's suspended on a needle point, so that it can turn easily.  I added a glass cover to keep out drafts and heat, which might cause it to move. I placed the device on a soft base, which tended to absorb vibrations before they could affect it. 

I used a small glass brandy snifter with 12 fluted ribs, equidistant around its circumference. These serve as a scale against which movement of the paper rotor can be measured. I marked one of the four points on the paper square, to help keep track of its movements. 

I tried to consciously move the rotor many times, without success. I then let it alone, checking it occasionally, to see it any movement had occurred. I did notice a small, but obvious change in the position of the Psi-wheel, on one occasion. Ordinary explanations such as vibration, or the heating action of sunlight upon the glass cover were ruled out as these had occurred frequently, without  affecting the wheel in any discernible way.

This infrequent sort of psychokinesis is consonant with my experience of it here, over the years.   

People move objects all the time.   Anyone who uses a pendulum for any reason is controlling the pendulum.  Maybe it is by tiny micro movements of muscles or by their mind.  I can make a pendulum stop spinning or change direction of the spin.   There is no visible change in position of the hand holding the pendulum whether it is my  hand or someone else's.

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, bison said:

After a conversation about a device called a 'psi-wheel', on a thread in this forum, I set up an improved version of this device. It's supposed to turn about in response to psychokinesis. 

It's simply a lightweight paper square folded so as to make movement easier to see. It's suspended on a needle point, so that it can turn easily.  I added a glass cover to keep out drafts and heat, which might cause it to move. I placed the device on a soft base, which tended to absorb vibrations before they could affect it. 

The problem with the psi wheel is that it is effect by anything. Primarily static and shifts in temperature. It's a horrible way to test psychokinesis. Even under a glass this still happens.

2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think it can happen.  The day my dad was taken by the police to a mental facility I was baking cookies with my grandson in the kitchen he built but had not been in in 20 years.   When I put the spices back in the cupboard and closed the door turning my back on it to the counter the door flew open and all the spices flew out, most hitting me in the head.    Later, my dad told me it was my fault he was put in that institution even though I knew nothing about what was going on with him.   Since I am convinced our consciousness does not reside solely in our brain (brain is communications device from consciousness to the physical) it is not far fetched for me to believe that PK is real, and poltergeist activity is usually perpetrated by mentally/emotionally unstable individuals.   

I know you and others disagree and that is fine, I am not concerned with convincing anyone but I will state my position.

 

My #1 issue with this an other claims is that they never stand up to a real test. We can tell stories all day and all night, yet when these things (pk and other psychic abilities) are really tested, we're left with nothing solid. 

I can recount a few times were I thought about some improbable thing I wished to occur, and it happens. The problem is assigning causality to it. Was it me or was it coincidence? I can not honestly answer that. But if a claim of psychokinesis is made, then that person should be able to demonstrate it. 

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Desertrat56
10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The problem with the psi wheel is that it is effect by anything. Primarily static and shifts in temperature. It's a horrible way to test psychokinesis. Even under a glass this still happens.

My #1 issue with this an other claims is that they never stand up to a real test. We can tell stories all day and all night, yet when these things (pk and other psychic abilities) are really tested, we're left with nothing solid. 

I can recount a few times were I thought about some improbable thing I wished to occur, and it happens. The problem is assigning causality to it. Was it me or was it coincidence? I can not honestly answer that. But if a claim of psychokinesis is made, then that person should be able to demonstrate it. 

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as coincidence.   There is no way to rationalize what happened with the spices.  Most of them were in tight racks on the cabinet door so that if you opened the door they would not fall out, others were on the shelf and would not fall out if the door was opened.  I could see setting one spice can cockeyed so that it fell out when the door opened, but 2 things, it would have only been that can, and who opened the door?  All of the spices from the racks and the shelves flew out, and seemed to be aimed at me, that may be my mistake, making it personal.   My grandson was standing a few feet away at the counter and I had shut the door turned my back and taken a step towards the counter.   It is my anecdote and I was there and I have no care to convince anyone, but I do give you my thought process.    At the time I did not know the police were at my dad's house to take him to court ordered confinement to a mental institution.   I found out later.    So it fits for me the description of poltergeist activity.    I do not go directly to paranormal or unexplained therefore aliens. And I tend to take the skeptical thought more seriously but I have experiences that I cannot explain so I look for explanations and make up my own mind.  

 

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XenoFish
53 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as coincidence.   There is no way to rationalize what happened with the spices.  Most of them were in tight racks on the cabinet door so that if you opened the door they would not fall out, others were on the shelf and would not fall out if the door was opened.  I could see setting one spice can cockeyed so that it fell out when the door opened, but 2 things, it would have only been that can, and who opened the door?  All of the spices from the racks and the shelves flew out, and seemed to be aimed at me, that may be my mistake, making it personal.   My grandson was standing a few feet away at the counter and I had shut the door turned my back and taken a step towards the counter.   It is my anecdote and I was there and I have no care to convince anyone, but I do give you my thought process.    At the time I did not know the police were at my dad's house to take him to court ordered confinement to a mental institution.   I found out later.    So it fits for me the description of poltergeist activity.    I do not go directly to paranormal or unexplained therefore aliens. And I tend to take the skeptical thought more seriously but I have experiences that I cannot explain so I look for explanations and make up my own mind.  

 

You said earlier that you weren't trying to convince the skeptics, now you're trying to convince the skeptic.

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Desertrat56
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You said earlier that you weren't trying to convince the skeptics, now you're trying to convince the skeptic.

I guess it might seem that way.  I don't care if you are convinced.  I am just explaining my process and why I don't believe in coincidence.   I may be completely wrong about how the spices flew out of the cupboard but based on what I know currently that is the conclusion I have come to.  If you ever have more to offer than coincidence I would like to hear it.  It is one thing to disagree and another to be dismissive.

Edited by Desertrat56
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