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the13bats

Mandela effect discussion

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Liquid Gardens
55 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

To me the big question is 'are any of the examples genuinely outside of normal explanation?'.

Fruit of the Loom logo not having a cornucopia? Richard Simmons not wearing a headband? The Ed McMahon one? Berenstein Bears? Chic-fil-a? Etcetera.

None of those are outside of normal explanations.  You've been provided normal explanations for some of them, you've been provided examples of how these things have been easily and logically confused with something else.  I see you've declined to estimate how long ago you think globes changed, is that because you are comparing to childhood memories?  Do you think science is silent on the accuracy of childhood memories?

I don't think you've fully appreciated either the implications if you are actually correct.  If reality is changing then I'd argue that the only thing you know for sure, maybe, is that reality is changing.  All of your other paranormal beliefs based on your personal conclusion from all the 'evidence' fly out the window, you've just undercut all of the evidence from this 'reality' with the Mandela effect.  Are you sure all of the things you think you read about the paranormal are still in existence?  Are you sure that your memory of paranormal evidence isn't itself just the Mandela effect altering your memory as you assume it's already done with some of these other Mandela effect examples?  Every thing you think you remember is now either (1) - a memory that is still consistent with the current reality which has not changed, (2) - a memory that is consistent with the current reality because the Mandela effect has changed your memory/altered the 'you' that is in this reality, or (3) - a memory that is inconsistent with this reality but is a true memory from a different reality because of the Mandela effect.  There's no way anyone has the time to constantly reassess all the memories they have to see if they are still consistent, which leaves you little ground to say anything is reality except what you are currently experiencing.  There's no reason to think that the reality alteration sometimes isn't entirely successful with no 'residue' and no inconsistent memories, I'm not even sure what 'reality' even means in such a construct.  "Evidence" then is no longer a thing, that requires a stable reality, so your paranormal beliefs aren't based on anything, your personal assessment from analyzing thousands of paranormal testimonials doesn't mean much; were those testimonials ever real or was it just a memory alteration?  All this, just to try to end around what science already knows concerning the fallibility of memory.

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

It is impossible to prove or disprove.

It's impossible to prove or disprove that someone who says they are Napoleon reborn is actually so, or that dragons exist, etc, which is why most don't bother using that standard for those ideas.  Most people just go with 'most likely explanation'. 

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Kenemet
20 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

You might allow for there to be two classes of memory error going on. The normal one we all understand and a mysterious one that involves correct memories that don’t match current consensus reality.

From certain examples I believe the latter class does exist. It is a judgment call on the data and not solvable by debate. 
 

I saw the the Frui of the Loom logo with the cornucopia as one example of the latter type.

This implies a constantly changing universe.  This also implies that you were created at some rift moment and you actually don't exist before then and that you are now a failed offshoot of an attempt to split the universe -- but that this splitting is so bad that some huge majority of people with your chosen memory are living in some other reality.

  And that the world keeps splitting every time there's a disagreement on memory, with some random grouping of an entire universe falling down "one leg of the trousers of time" as Terry Pratchett put it.  So there'd be constant splits because given eight billion people on the planet everyone's remembering different things all the time.

Mandela effect also implies that this has been going on forever.... so back in primordial slimes an amoeba misremembers a food location and suddenly there's two different universes -- the one where the food was where blob A remembered and the one where it wasn't.

Which gives an infinite number of universes and you are randomly being thrust into a new one every single second of your life.

That being the case, then even your most firm memories will be incorrect.

Now... follow along:

  • You "split" at the fruit of the loom cornucopia along with, say, half the entire universe selected rather randomly. 
  • In the next second there's another event and you are randomly selected to fall into a different universe along with half the things from the Universe of the First Split.  Many of these are new creations
  • That's  2,240,642,478 seconds.  You've had that many changes in your life (if you were born today, April 19, 1950. at noon.)
  • Now, the global population in 1950 was 2,556,000,053 - roughly the same number of seconds.  So by this count there should be exactly nobody with the same memory beliefs alive in your timeline.
  • If there's a group of people with your Mandela beliefs and memories (M-beliefs) then this implies that the timelines aren't splitting very often.
  • And it's apparently only splitting for events significant to Americans/English speakers who are from a Christian cultural background (never seems to split for Zororastrian events.)
  • Believers typically focus on one event that makes the universe seem "wrong" to the a. They seem to acquire more M-beliefs after "researching" Mandela groups where people express additional beliefs (Australia being somewhere else.)  They've been influenced by a group bias and accepted what the group said was correct, *AND* they don't seem to argue that these "proofs" are not correct.  SO -- if you turned up with a new (and faked) example, the M-belief community would go along with this.
  • Which also implies that there may be a set of M-beliefs created by trolls
  • And that people actually mis-remembering things are assigning a M-belief to their bad memory -- and that some of these mis-memories are becoming M-beliefs simply because the group accepts this as proof.
  • Which means there is no pure/true M-belief timeline

 

If there is no true or pure M-belief timeline then the Mandela effect doesn't exist.  If it does exist, nobody could show up with a new (made-up) example (or bad memory taken as example) and have it accepted by the community.

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papageorge1
Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

While this is true for you, what about everyone else?  And did you ever get one thing confused with something else?  The "fruit of the loom" logo is one that I did misremember simply because of the commonality of cornucopia images at that time (and because I didn't spend hours staring at underwear logos)

And has your "surety level" been wrong?  I know lots of people who are very sure about some things and they're very wrong.  

 

I think I have repeated multiple times that there is no way I can prove it to you or even myself. It is my judgment from all the examples and my personal Flintstone incident I shared. 

50 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Is the "Mandela effect" an "escape clause" for people who can't stand to admit they are wrong?

This to me reads like the silliest most repeated skeptic argument out there. I admit I am wrong all the time to myself and to others about things. Just today I was looking for a Pet Store and had the name wrong. I admit I thought it had a different but similar name but I don't think the Mandela Effect had anything to do with it. I believe my memory was a little off.

And I still believe in the Mandela Effect because of the convincing examples. 

P.S. I don't remember any commonality of the cornucopia image at one time.

Edited by papageorge1

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papageorge1
45 minutes ago, Xeno-Fish said:

For Christ sake man. This is just you're way of dismissing the realistic answers in favor of your wishful thinking. And you have the audacity to claim you're open minded. 

?? <sigh>

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papageorge1
21 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

None of those are outside of normal explanations.  You've been provided normal explanations for some of them, you've been provided examples of how these things have been easily and logically confused with something else.  I see you've declined to estimate how long ago you think globes changed, is that because you are comparing to childhood memories?  Do you think science is silent on the accuracy of childhood memories?

I don't think you've fully appreciated either the implications if you are actually correct.  If reality is changing then I'd argue that the only thing you know for sure, maybe, is that reality is changing.  All of your other paranormal beliefs based on your personal conclusion from all the 'evidence' fly out the window, you've just undercut all of the evidence from this 'reality' with the Mandela effect.  Are you sure all of the things you think you read about the paranormal are still in existence?  Are you sure that your memory of paranormal evidence isn't itself just the Mandela effect altering your memory as you assume it's already done with some of these other Mandela effect examples?  Every thing you think you remember is now either (1) - a memory that is still consistent with the current reality which has not changed, (2) - a memory that is consistent with the current reality because the Mandela effect has changed your memory/altered the 'you' that is in this reality, or (3) - a memory that is inconsistent with this reality but is a true memory from a different reality because of the Mandela effect.  There's no way anyone has the time to constantly reassess all the memories they have to see if they are still consistent, which leaves you little ground to say anything is reality except what you are currently experiencing.  There's no reason to think that the reality alteration sometimes isn't entirely successful with no 'residue' and no inconsistent memories, I'm not even sure what 'reality' even means in such a construct.  "Evidence" then is no longer a thing, that requires a stable reality, so your paranormal beliefs aren't based on anything, your personal assessment from analyzing thousands of paranormal testimonials doesn't mean much; were those testimonials ever real or was it just a memory alteration?  All this, just to try to end around what science already knows concerning the fallibility of memory.

It's impossible to prove or disprove that someone who says they are Napoleon reborn is actually so, or that dragons exist, etc, which is why most don't bother using that standard for those ideas.  Most people just go with 'most likely explanation'. 

As a believer in the Mandela Effect I do not claim to understand it. My leading theory as I said before is that it is being done with real world examples but is limited in such a way as to not upset the apple-cart of mainstream functioning (i.e. kept to a few trivial things). There is a greater wisdom in control of these things. That is my leading theory. It is to provoke us to think as the man in 'The Thinker' statue.

 

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papageorge1
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

This implies a constantly changing universe.  This also implies that you were created at some rift moment and you actually don't exist before then and that you are now a failed offshoot of an attempt to split the universe -- but that this splitting is so bad that some huge majority of people with your chosen memory are living in some other reality.

  And that the world keeps splitting every time there's a disagreement on memory, with some random grouping of an entire universe falling down "one leg of the trousers of time" as Terry Pratchett put it.  So there'd be constant splits because given eight billion people on the planet everyone's remembering different things all the time.

Mandela effect also implies that this has been going on forever.... so back in primordial slimes an amoeba misremembers a food location and suddenly there's two different universes -- the one where the food was where blob A remembered and the one where it wasn't.

Which gives an infinite number of universes and you are randomly being thrust into a new one every single second of your life.

That being the case, then even your most firm memories will be incorrect.

Now... follow along:

  • You "split" at the fruit of the loom cornucopia along with, say, half the entire universe selected rather randomly. 
  • In the next second there's another event and you are randomly selected to fall into a different universe along with half the things from the Universe of the First Split.  Many of these are new creations
  • That's  2,240,642,478 seconds.  You've had that many changes in your life (if you were born today, April 19, 1950. at noon.)
  • Now, the global population in 1950 was 2,556,000,053 - roughly the same number of seconds.  So by this count there should be exactly nobody with the same memory beliefs alive in your timeline.
  • If there's a group of people with your Mandela beliefs and memories (M-beliefs) then this implies that the timelines aren't splitting very often.
  • And it's apparently only splitting for events significant to Americans/English speakers who are from a Christian cultural background (never seems to split for Zororastrian events.)
  • Believers typically focus on one event that makes the universe seem "wrong" to the a. They seem to acquire more M-beliefs after "researching" Mandela groups where people express additional beliefs (Australia being somewhere else.)  They've been influenced by a group bias and accepted what the group said was correct, *AND* they don't seem to argue that these "proofs" are not correct.  SO -- if you turned up with a new (and faked) example, the M-belief community would go along with this.
  • Which also implies that there may be a set of M-beliefs created by trolls
  • And that people actually mis-remembering things are assigning a M-belief to their bad memory -- and that some of these mis-memories are becoming M-beliefs simply because the group accepts this as proof.
  • Which means there is no pure/true M-belief timeline

 

If there is no true or pure M-belief timeline then the Mandela effect doesn't exist.  If it does exist, nobody could show up with a new (made-up) example (or bad memory taken as example) and have it accepted by the community.

I just said the following to @Liquid Gardens

As a believer in the Mandela Effect I do not claim to understand it. My leading theory as I said before is that it is being done with real world examples but is limited in such a way as to not upset the apple-cart of mainstream functioning (i.e. kept to a few trivial things). There is a greater wisdom in control of these things. That is my leading theory. It is to provoke us to think as the man in 'The Thinker' statue.

Our central difference is that you are assuming this to be a non-thinking/non-controlled phenomena. I suspect there is wisdom and control behind the phenomenon. We are to see that reality is ultimately subjective but still giving us a base consensus reality to operate with each other. I think it was physicist Thomas Campbell of the simulation theory notoriety that said the basic rules of the game (consensus reality) must be maintained in the simulation.

I'll see if I can find that video. Be back.

 

Edited by papageorge1

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Liquid Gardens
26 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Just today I was looking for a Pet Store and had the name wrong. I admit I thought it had a different but similar name but I don't think the Mandela Effect had anything to do with it. I believe my memory was a little off.

Why though?  You've admitted that we don't know what's going on with the Mandela effect, and thus logically you don't know the extent to which you can reliably detect when it occurs.  You didn't have the store's name wrong, it was the Mandela effect again - why not?  

16 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

My leading theory as I said before is that it is being done with real world examples but is limited in such a way as to not upset the apple-cart of mainstream functioning (i.e. kept to a few trivial things). There is a greater wisdom in control of these things. That is my leading theory. It is to provoke us to think as the man in 'The Thinker' statue.

Or it is Satan trying to trick us, of course.  I think it's a rather odd and kinda belittling comment about the nature of 'a greater wisdom in control of these things' that he's communicating profound cosmic truths via the medium of old cartoons and underwear labels, but to each his own I suppose.

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papageorge1

@Kenemet   @Liquid Gardens

 

Here's a Thomas Campbell video that I was talking about in my last post:

211 | Physicist Explains the Mandela Effect, Virtual Reality and the Nature of Consciousness - YouTube

 

He starts talking about the Mandela Effect at 2:04:58

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papageorge1
6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Why though?  You've admitted that we don't know what's going on with the Mandela effect, and thus logically you don't know the extent to which you can reliably detect when it occurs.  You didn't have the store's name wrong, it was the Mandela effect again - why not?  

Again it comes to my 'surety level' and the 'surety level' of a large group of people. It's my best judgment.

7 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Or it is Satan trying to trick us, of course.  I think it's a rather odd and kinda belittling comment about the nature of 'a greater wisdom in control of these things' that he's communicating profound cosmic truths via the medium of old cartoons and underwear labels, but to each his own I suppose.

My leading theory as in my real-time Flintstones flip/flop story is that it was controlled by a benign informing/teaching intelligence.

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Scholar4Truth

Here is my question to those that believe in the Mandela Effect. If they are trusting their memory today how do they know what they say will be true tomorrow? If according to the Mandela Effect everything is reality is always changing then you might as well not trust anything which will lead to total radical skepticism. Ye's memories are fallible but there are some things I can no for certain such as I was born in January in the year 1988 that I am an only child etc. What I find interesting about proponents of Mandela Effect is that they say reality is changing via product labels, movies etc. You would think if those are being radically changed, their own personal information about their life in the examples I have given would as well. But yet we don't see that happening.

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papageorge1
33 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

Here is my question to those that believe in the Mandela Effect. If they are trusting their memory today how do they know what they say will be true tomorrow? If according to the Mandela Effect everything is reality is always changing then you might as well not trust anything which will lead to total radical skepticism. Ye's memories are fallible but there are some things I can no for certain such as I was born in January in the year 1988 that I am an only child etc. What I find interesting about proponents of Mandela Effect is that they say reality is changing via product labels, movies etc. You would think if those are being radically changed, their own personal information about their life in the examples I have given would as well. But yet we don't see that happening.

Well as a believer in the Mandela Effect, it appears to me that the Mandela Effect is only changing very few things for some and the mainstream of consensus reality is not being disturbed. My leading hypothesis is that this is not an unthinking/uncontrolled process but a thinking/controlled process that has no intention of disrupting the apple-cart of society and reality as we experience it.

I live life normally with just a few curiosities that cause me to ponder that we are living in a deeper and richer reality than is understood through materialist thinking.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Well as a believer in the Mandela Effect, it appears to me that the Mandela Effect is only changing very few things for some and the mainstream of consensus reality is not being disturbed. My leading hypothesis is that this is not an unthinking/uncontrolled process but a thinking/controlled process that has no intention of disrupting the apple-cart of society and reality as we experience it.

I live life normally with just a few curiosities that cause me to ponder that we are living in a deeper and richer reality than is understood through materialist thinking.

You do fully realize that this is just your reality tunnel. Your perception of things and your brain is just filling in the blanks according to what you believe is true. Even though what you think is, isn't. 

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Guyver

I experienced this phenomenon, or something like it just last week.  I was playing golf with my friend Bill, he just started playing again after a 15 year break from the game.  We played early that day teeing off at 8:00 am.  When we got to the 7th hole (525 yard par 5 dogleg right) I set up to hit my tee shot.  Since the fairway slopes so hard from left to right and there’s a dogleg right, I always aim for the extreme left edge of the fairway, and hope I get past the steepest part so my ball stays left and gives me a long shot at the green.  Anyway, from my line of sight, I aim left of this metal tower (power lines) and at a fork in a very tall tree.

So, I set up and look out and I notice the metal tower had been painted white.  I said Bill, look at the tower, they painted it white.  He’s like yeah.  I said, I’ve been looking at this tower for 5 years and I’ve never seen it painted until now.  He said, yeah, he’s never seen it painted before either.  I was wondering who actually did the painting, etc.  Anyway, long story short....that was Wednesday last week.  I played with my “A” golf group on Friday- two days later and the tower was not painted.  I didn’t say anything, but I noticed it.  Today, Bill joined my Monday group and when we got to the 7th hole, I said Bill look at the tower.  Just last week we both thought it had been painted white, but it looks normal.  He said yeah, that’s weird.  I said, it must have been some type of optical illusion.....and that was it.  But, I could have sworn that tower was painted white.

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papageorge1
Just now, Xeno-Fish said:

You do fully realize that this is just your reality tunnel. Your perception of things and your brain is just filling in the blanks according to what you believe is true. Even though what you think is, isn't. 

And I call it making the best objective sense of all the puzzle pieces.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

And I call it making the best objective sense of all the puzzle pieces.

It's called confirmation bias along with belief perseverance. You fit events into your beliefs so that they confirm (reinforce) what you think is true. And you willfully deny any outside information that contradicts what you believe to be true. 

Would it be so bad that the ME is just faulty memory? Is that idea to dangerous to your belief?

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, Xeno-Fish said:

It's called confirmation bias along with belief perseverance. You fit events into your beliefs so that they confirm (reinforce) what you think is true. And you willfully deny any outside information that contradicts what you believe to be true. 

Would it be so bad that the ME is just faulty memory? Is that idea to dangerous to your belief?

Actually the above is what I would call bias and belief perseverance. I on the other hand am willing to believe whatever makes the most objective sense!

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moonman
Posted (edited)

If reality was actually changing around us, either everyone would notice or nobody would notice.The "new normal" will be what always was.

Just like if you went back and changed history, the history you changed is what people will have always known.

Edited by moonman
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the13bats
5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Is the "Mandela effect" an "escape clause" for people who can't stand to admit they are wrong?

Thats all it amounts to for me an ego thing for some who think they are flawless.

This all started with papa believing from his memory Ed McMahon worked for PCH and went to winners doors with an oversized novelty check, he as said many times he is 100% sure that his memory of this is correct.

However,

I recall the PCH/McMahon example correctly as in reflected by the overwhelming evidence out there, so i require nothing for my memory of it to be correct,

Papas version however requires him to introduce the unproven opinion that some tangent universe is slipping up and his faulty memory is actually him being special enough to see what that tangent universe is up to.

Im i on the right path at all?

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papageorge1
2 hours ago, the13bats said:

 

Papas version however requires him to introduce the unproven opinion that some tangent universe is slipping up and his faulty memory is actually him being special enough to see what that tangent universe is up to.

Im i on the right path at all?

No, you are on your own path..

No Papa's version does not require that a tangent universe is slipping up.

If you read my posts above and from today you can actually hear Papa's version.

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the13bats
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

No, you are on your own path..

No Papa's version does not require that a tangent universe is slipping up.

If you read my posts above and from today you can actually hear Papa's version.

 

Thanks for the reply, but im very aware that you refuse to accept you have faulty memory and your closed mindedness caused me to see you as a dead end so i directed my question at another member.

So papa please give others a chance to respond,

Thanks.

 

Edited by the13bats

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Kenemet
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

@Kenemet   @Liquid Gardens

 

Here's a Thomas Campbell video that I was talking about in my last post:

211 | Physicist Explains the Mandela Effect, Virtual Reality and the Nature of Consciousness - YouTube

 

He starts talking about the Mandela Effect at 2:04:58

Oh, for cat's sake... don't send me a 3 hour video about something.  In fact, don't send me a video.  If you want to bolster something, give me a link to a paper with someone who's genuinely accredited in the field (so I can check the rest of their work) and not some nameless whatchamacallit on YouTube.

There's no fact checking on YouTube.

I could claim that I have an intelligent and sentient jaguar living in my house on YouTube.  I can't do that in a conference paper because There Will Be Questions and demands for proof.

 

(if I sound cranky, it's because I read about five to six times faster than most people talk.  So a 2 hour video's content can be read comfortably in 25 minutes or less.  I've got things to do and hunting around a video for something is not my idea of a good time.)

Edited by Kenemet
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papageorge1
38 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Oh, for cat's sake... don't send me a 3 hour video about something.  In fact, don't send me a video.  If you want to bolster something, give me a link to a paper with someone who's genuinely accredited in the field (so I can check the rest of their work) and not some nameless whatchamacallit on YouTube.

There's no fact checking on YouTube.

I could claim that I have an intelligent and sentient jaguar living in my house on YouTube.  I can't do that in a conference paper because There Will Be Questions and demands for proof.

 

(if I sound cranky, it's because I read about five to six times faster than most people talk.  So a 2 hour video's content can be read comfortably in 25 minutes or less.  I've got things to do and hunting around a video for something is not my idea of a good time.)

I guess I don't understand your post. I gave an exact timestamp meaning the part I wanted to point out only takes a few minutes not three hours.

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Scholar4Truth
Posted (edited)

Here's one Mandela effect that I can easily debunk. Some will claim that Jif peanut butter used to be called Jiffy peanut butter. But they're confusing Jif peanut butter with jiffy corn muffin mix. In fact here is photographic evidence to prove that.   I had some of it laying around. Not to mention there's another product by that name that is Jiffy Pop which is  a popcorn brand.

20210420_000635_HDR_(1)_(1).jpg

Edited by Scholar4Truth
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Kenemet
1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

I guess I don't understand your post. I gave an exact timestamp meaning the part I wanted to point out only takes a few minutes not three hours.

Don't give me a video.

Got a paper?  Article from a scholarly source that knows one end of an equation from another?

Videos are the simplest form of mind control -- you eyes will believe (magic) even when your brain tells you something else (sleight of hand.)  You can't check references on the fly on a video.  You can if it's written.

Videos are the laziest form of interaction.

So give me some meat in a discussion and not air and hand-wavium.  I like a good magic trick as well as the next person but if I'm discussing something philosophical or scientific I want something more substantial.

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