Biden issues warning to Putin, proposes summit as Russian troops amass along the Ukrainian border

[Horta]

47 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

Please supply evidence of your comment that the US Has been using Chemical and Biological weapons since Eisenhower was President. To clear CS or Tear gas should not be included in any response.

 

 

You have Kennedy conspiracy theorists to thank for this, by pressuring for the release of documents and pouring over them. What would you call attempts to poison with, neurotoxins (botulinum), tubercle bacillus, fungi, "black leaf"among other things via various apparatus? It's surprising, this is claim is well known and isn't even controversial for most. There are various enquiries (Church Committee for example) both official and other that have expanded on the documents, but it would take some trawling to get to those, have at it if you wish.

The short version is in wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro

The longer version here.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10213-10101.pdf

Edited April 20, 2021 by Horta

[Horta]

ps. or doesn't it count if he is a communist?

[Grim Reaper 6]

39 minutes ago, Horta said:

 

You have Kennedy conspiracy theorists to thank for this, by pressuring for the release of documents and pouring over them. What would you call attempts to poison with, neurotoxins (botulinum), tubercle bacillus, fungi, "black leaf"among other things via various apparatus? It's surprising, this is claim is well known and isn't even controversial for most. There are various enquiries (Church Committee for example) both official and other that have expanded on the documents, but it would take some trawling to get to those, have at it if you wish.

The short version is in wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro

The longer version here.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10213-10101.pdf

I was aware of the attempts on Castros life, but by your comments I thought you were saying the US was carrying widespread use of those Biological agents. However, I don't condone what occurred, and I am quite aware the US is guilty of many actions over the years. 

[spartan max2]

52 minutes ago, Horta said:

 

You have Kennedy conspiracy theorists to thank for this, by pressuring for the release of documents and pouring over them. What would you call attempts to poison with, neurotoxins (botulinum), tubercle bacillus, fungi, "black leaf"among other things via various apparatus? It's surprising, this is claim is well known and isn't even controversial for most. There are various enquiries (Church Committee for example) both official and other that have expanded on the documents, but it would take some trawling to get to those, have at it if you wish.

The short version is in wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro

The longer version here.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10213-10101.pdf

Perhaps I'm not following the covo.

But using chemicals (position) is assassination attempts wouldn't really be considered chemical warfare.

[Grim Reaper 6]

47 minutes ago, Horta said:

ps. or doesn't it count if he is a communist?

What his political affiliation was has nothing to do with it. But, his actions against the United States do

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

Perhaps I'm not following the covo.

But using chemicals (position) is assassination attempts wouldn't really be considered chemical warfare.

Your right it isn't considered Chemical Warfare. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Horta said:

No one should believe the Russians uncritically. Nothing should be accepted from anyone uncritically. Though in fairness the word allegedly wouldn't be out of place from the above either. You really don't think the US would resort to propaganda lol? The corporate propaganda system is the envy of the world. 

The US has done great things and no doubt the world is overall a better place for it. Though it is like any other nation concerning war and propaganda, apart from being better at it than most.

The US has been using chemical and biological weapons in assassination attempts since Eisenhower (that we know of). They have also enlisted leading organised crime figures to help with this. 

They have also aided regimes in the past whom they knew not only had chemical weapons, but were going to use them (and did so), so there is precedent. 

There is also the "WMD" lies as justification for the misery of millions of people. Keeping so called political prisoners in torture facilities without due process. 

These things are all well known and documented.

The only nation to have vaporised innocent non combatants with nuclear weapons, against the advice of nearly all high ranking military officials who either saw no need for it, or thought no military advantage could be gained from it.

So starting from a position that any particular nation has the moral high ground is unrealistic. It really doesn't matter who you choose to believe, why would you would choose to believe anyone?

Quite strange that these attacks started after Obama announced that it would draw US response and increase involvement. Some would say like waving a red flag to a bull. 

All sorts of fanatical groups have poured into Syria, backed by US, Saudis and Brits mostly. Some have at various times fought on either side in this conflict. As the documents you supplied also demonstrate, these "non state actors" are also thought to have used chemical weapons recently in nearby conflicts.

It isn't as simple as you would like to believe.

 

I am going to answer this post in detail, but not this evening, dude I ha rough day and I am tired.

[Horta]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Perhaps I'm not following the covo.

But using chemicals (position) is assassination attempts wouldn't really be considered chemical warfare.

It was in response to Manwons claim that Russia is using chemicals in attempt to assassinate officials. If they are (yes, if) they aren't the only ones.

[Horta]

12 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I was aware of the attempts on Castros life, but by your comments I thought you were saying the US was carrying widespread use of those Biological agents. However, I don't condone what occurred, and I am quite aware the US is guilty of many actions over the years. 

Yes. The US has done some great things also. Without them, Europe might eventually have had no choice but to try for a peace deal with Hitler, for example.

Though when it is to their geopolitical advantage all countries lie. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, Horta said:

Yes. The US has done some great things also. Without them, Europe might eventually have had no choice but to try for a peace deal with Hitler, for example.

Though when it is to their geopolitical advantage all countries lie. 

I am aware that all countries lie, unfortunately it's nature of the beast and I like you do not condone this behavior.,  However with that said The way I view things there is only one way to separate the good from the evil. You do that by weighing the good and bad and which ever one tips the a positive manner also determine how that Nation is viewed

Time for bed dude.

[Horta]

33 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I am aware that all countries lie, unfortunately it's nature of the beast and I like you do not condone this behavior.,  However with that said The way I view things there is only one way to separate the good from the evil. You do that by weighing the good and bad and which ever one tips the a positive manner also determine how that Nation is viewed

Time for bed dude.

Fair enough Manwon.

Though the only real point being made is that approaching it from a pov of one country having a moral "high ground" versus another, is probably the wrong way to go about it. No countries that have been dominant in the world for the last few centuries (or probably ever) can really claim that.

[Grim Reaper 6]

20 hours ago, Horta said:

Fair enough Manwon.

Though the only real point being made is that approaching it from a pov of one country having a moral "high ground" versus another, is probably the wrong way to go about it. No countries that have been dominant in the world for the last few centuries (or probably ever) can really claim that.

Being dominate isn't really important, so long as you have Strength from Superior Fire power that makes dominance a very mute point!!!! As far as the morel high ground, no country has had that since 1945.

[Grim Reaper 6]

21 hours ago, Horta said:

It was in response to Manwons claim that Russia is using chemicals in attempt to assassinate officials. If they are (yes, if) they aren't the only ones.

There is no claim at all Russia has been using Chemical Agents only facts. In addition your comments that the US was using Biological Warfare is a claim, and not factual at all. The instances where they attempted to kill Castro was not biological warfare, it was espionage. Now, Russians use of both Chemical and Biological agents were used as both espionage and as Chemical and Biological warfare.

So there is no claim only facts, so far my friend you have not backed up what you said, so your only making claims.

Chemical Warfare in Afghanistan: An Independent Assessment:  Chemical Warfare in Afghanistan: An Independent Assessment on JSTOR

The recent poisoning on British soil of Sergei Skripal, a former Russian military intelligence officer :Russia’s Toxic Legacy (jstor.org)

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 4/20/2021 at 9:02 PM, Horta said:

Thank you for your analysis and critique of the paper, it's appreciated.

Though you do realise that you support it's main point? This was either delivered via a bomb from the air, or it wasn't the Syrians. You also seem to be at odds with US and OPCW experts who found no plausibility to this crater being caused by anything other than an air strike (they specifically ruled out improvised explosives). No, they did not determine this from in situ studies either, as it says.

It is also not the finished article, as that had various amendments made during the peer review process. It also says that detailed analysis/discussion of various other scenarios is beyond its scope so lacking gps systems or that they are fired from a battery might not be that relevant, at least the lead author (who most definitely is also an expert) didn't find such things problematic.

What do you think of the lack of transparency, refusal to cooperate, the methodological problems of refusing to explain how certain conclusions were reached, and general refusal of scrutiny or critique by the US and OPCW?

You might have a less than informed view of "rebel forces". While there are such forces, there are all sorts of fanatics and groups that have poured in to the place as well. Groups that are allies now because it's convenient, but will no doubt be problematic down the track as per usual.

The same could be said of Assad. The main thing that is keeping him there is support from his people (yes he is a dictator and yes he has been oppressive). Why would he do the very thing that would firstly have his people turn on him as a war criminal, then increase US/allied involvement to his detriment? You would have to conclude that he genuinely is insane, which might be so, but it also might not.

Your very welcome concerning the analysis and critique of the paper, but that has been my job for more than 30 years so there really wasn't much to it. Actually I dont support the main point, I added information that supports both sides in order to be fair to you. As far as your comment above concerning the fact that if it wasn't a bomb then it wasn't Syrian forces is incorrect. While I did eliminate many possible methods of delivery, I also said that it was not a bomb. This leaves the final delivery system to have been a Munition that could have been used would have been a 60 or 80mm Mortar. Both varieties are used for Chemical weapons deliverer, and the small crater could have been left by either. 

However, according to the paper you presented Computational Forensic Analysis for the Chemical Weapons Attack at Khan Sheikhoun on April 4, 2017 they believe a 122mm rocket made the impact crater in the photo's in this link you provided: Attachment+4+-+Computational+Forensic+Analysis+for+the+Chemical+Weapons+Attack+at+Khan+Sheikhoun+on+April+4.+2017_S.pdf (d3ba7j4nna908t.cloudfront.net)However, the impact crater is far to small to have been created by 122mm rocket. So when I take all the information from the paper you presented, I do not understand how a mistake like this could have been made.

The actual lack of cooperation wasn't from the US, OPCW, UN-JIM, or any other investigative organization the lack of Cooperation was from the Syrian Government and their guard dog the Russian Federation. In every case of a Chemical agent attack occurred on Syrian soil, the Syrian Government has intentionally hamper and slowed down any investigation of those attacks, by weeks or months by not allowing immediate access to the sites of said attacks. It happen in 2017 when I was involved in the attacks that occurred in the areas around  Ltamenah", we were prevented from reaching the site for 3 weeks. So I strongly disagree with your comments that the US, OPCW, and the UN-JIM were not transparent or not cooperating.

My view of Rebel Forces is not at all uniformed, so thanks for your concern but I am certain that I have a much more informed understand than you do on the Subject. The so called rebel forces you describe above, and the locations of all the Chemical Attacks that have all taken place during the Syrian Civil War, were in Rebel held areas, not in areas that were under the control of the Syrian Government. Speaking about being uniformed, your comment that Assad's people are keeping him in power is Ludacris. The only thing that has kept him in power is the Russian Federation and nothing else. He is not insane he is a typical dictator and he will do anything to stay in power, because frankly if he were to lose power he would have no where to go. If he did escape Syria he would be captured sooner or later and he would tried by the Hague for War Crimes ( Crimes against Humanity). 

 Summary

Based upon all the assembled information ( the Paper you Presented and the Papers I have presented ) I do not see the lack of transparency concerning the US Government, the UN-JIM, or the OPCW that you do. The problem that the US and OPCW assumed that the delivery system was bomb doesnt show a lack of transparency at all. The real problem was the fact that the Syrian Government held up the investigation for 30 days and supplied the investigators with photo's and other information that they had to assume was accurate. Even the report that you cited is not accurately represented, as I have stated above Computational Forensic Analysis for the Chemical Weapons Attack at Khan Sheikhoun on April 4, 2017 ( Paper you presented ) states that the crater was made by a what they call a 122mm Artillery Rocket  and that is in no way possible.

But do to the size of the crater and the cratering effect from the munition, the crater that has been photographed could have been made by 122mm Artillery Rocket.  So I must completely disagree with you, and I will not attempt to change your mind about anything we have discussed. For some reason you have  chose to take the Russian and Syrian accounts of the incident at face value, and that's fine by me. Because there are no legitimate occasions during the Syrian Civil War where ISIS, or any rebel forces have been shown to have used chemical agents against Syrian forces or Syrian held areas. So far nothing you have presented convinces me this is true, in fact the more I look at this situation the more I find the Syrian Government fully responsible with Russian support. Unless you have any additional sources of information, I am done discussing this subject with you. I enjoyed our conversation, however we must agree to disagree on this subject.

Take care Man  

60mm Mortar impact crater on asphalt photo taken in the Ukraine

Below is the so called Crater caused by a 122MM Rockets

 

Below is an antiquated 122mm Rocket Launcher that was used by the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War and that was supplied by the Chinese as a single launch system.

Below is a photo of a Chinese 122mm Rocket being held by a Chinese Soldier, this rocket is exactly the same as the Russian 122mm Rockets because the design and launcher were copied from the Russian BM-21 122mm MLRS Systems.  

BM-21 122mm MLRS Systems 

 

Below is a US Soldier standing in a 122mm Rocket Crater

L

[Horta]

4 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

As far as your comment above concerning the fact that if it wasn't a bomb then it wasn't Syrian forces is incorrect. While I did eliminate many possible methods of delivery, I also said that it was not a bomb. This leaves the final delivery system to have been a Munition that could have been used would have been a 60 or 80mm Mortar. Both varieties are used for Chemical weapons deliverer, and the small crater could have been left by either. 

Wasn't the only attack at this time an air attack (eventually acknowledged by the Russians)? Although according to them, some distance away and some hours later (to destroy a particular facility)? So if you were able to demonstrate ground forces were responsible that would make your claim relevant, but there is still another couple of problems.

Is your explanation of how the chemical was delivered consistent with testimony?

Also the paper actually provides an analysis that specifically rules out either a rocket or a bomb as being the delivery method for a chemical weapon in this instance.

As to what might have caused the crater it also makes clear that detailed discussion about why other scenarios were ruled out was beyond its scope.

It should also be noted that in this respect you not only disagree with a group led by a very experienced academic/professor of Physics who specialises in weapons delivery, but also with the OPCW experts as well as US experts, who have also considered plausible explanations for the crater and obviously discounted yours (and didn't even seem to find it worth discussing).

What you have graciously supplied is another opinion backed by diagrams etc but it doesn't begin to critique, let alone rebut the points of this analysis itself, you do realise that?

Quote

The actual lack of cooperation wasn't from the US, OPCW, UN-JIM, or any other investigative organization the lack of Cooperation was from the Syrian Government and their guard dog the Russian Federation. In every case of a Chemical agent attack occurred on Syrian soil, the Syrian Government has intentionally hamper and slowed down any investigation of those attacks, by weeks or months by not allowing immediate access to the sites of said attacks. It happen in 2017 when I was involved in the attacks that occurred in the areas around  Ltamenah", we were prevented from reaching the site for 3 weeks. So I strongly disagree with your comments that the US, OPCW, and the UN-JIM were not transparent or not cooperating.

This particular incident occurred in a strongly held rebel area. Expecting the Syrian government to assure access and safety to such an area doesn't seem reasonable. So even allowing truth to your claim overall, it is irrelevant in this instance. Though, how is refusing to divulge methodology that would have allowed genuine critique, and refusing to explain how conclusions were reached, cooperating?

Quote

My view of Rebel Forces is not at all uniformed, so thanks for your concern but I am certain that I have a much more informed understand than you do on the Subject.

The only polling done around the start of the conflict (by Qatar ?) showed overwhelming support for Assad, despite him appearing an oppressive dictator. It surprised a lot of people. Not sure if such a thing is possible now, but correspondents (the ones who who don't have a history of being  propagandists) have far more access to both sides and would certainly know more than yourself as well as some relevant academics seem to indicate that the current govt and its dictator are thought a better option by the majority than risking the uncertainty of the rebels with all of their militant and extremist factions. Looking at what has eventuated in other western led regime changes, this might be understandable.

Again, he might be a war criminal, but that is a serious thing to claim and coupled with the history of western propaganda and lies (WMD's doesn't help) you aren't convincing.

 

 

 

[Horta]

10 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

Quote

Based upon all the assembled information ( the Paper you Presented and the Papers I have presented ) I do not see the lack of transparency concerning the US Government, the UN-JIM, or the OPCW that you do. The problem that the US and OPCW assumed that the delivery system was bomb doesnt show a lack of transparency at all. The real problem was the fact that the Syrian Government held up the investigation for 30 days and supplied the investigators with photo's and other information that they had to assume was accurate. Even the report that you cited is not accurately represented, as I have stated above Computational Forensic Analysis for the Chemical Weapons Attack at Khan Sheikhoun on April 4, 2017 ( Paper you presented ) states that the crater was made by a what they call a 122mm Artillery Rocket  and that is in no way possible.

What made the crater doesn't really matter that much though unless it can be shown it was the delivery method of a chemical weapon and used at that time, which is what matters. 

You haven't supplied "papers" as such, articles from US military personnel via an Israeli think tank lol (that are irrelevant anyway) and a one page preview from ex US defence dept personnel in a journal devoted to US foreign policy, don't really amount to "papers".  You might as well cite Fox or CNN articles. Though you have also flooded with links to UN which are mostly about resolutions, statements from members and so on. There is a link to a relevant report amongst it though, in that it is considered not only very contentious by people involved with it from the OPCW itself, but some feel it might have destroyed the OPCW's credibility, we haven't even really got to that yet.

Quote

The so called rebel forces you describe above, and the locations of all the Chemical Attacks that have all taken place during the Syrian Civil War, were in Rebel held areas, not in areas that were under the control of the Syrian Government. 

? 

From your own linked documents. There are others but this should do.

Quote

5. In a letter dated 19 March 2013, the Permanent Representative of the Syrian Arab Republic to the United Nations informed the Secretary-General and the President of the Security Council of its allegation that, at 0730 hours on 19 March, armed terrorist groups had fired a rocket from the Kfar De’il area towards Khan Al Asal in the Aleppo governorate. According to the letter, the rocket had travelled approximately 5 kilometers and fell 300 meters away from a Syrian Arab Republic army position. Following its impact, a thick cloud of smoke had left unconscious anyone who had inhaled it. The incident reportedly resulted in the deaths of 25 people and injured more than 110 civilians and soldiers who were taken to hospitals in Aleppo.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Horta

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, Horta said:

Wasn't the only attack at this time an air attack (eventually acknowledged by the Russians)? Although according to them, some distance away and some hours later (to destroy a particular facility)? So if you were able to demonstrate ground forces were responsible that would make your claim relevant, but there is still another couple of problems.

Yes there were Aircraft in the area, they were tracked on radar leaving a Syrian Airbase and being in the area where the Chemical Attacks occurred and then returning to their base of operations. This occurred on 3 separate occasions, in  two attacks Non-Persistent Nerve Agents were used and one attack was where a Choking agent was used ( Chlorine ) all of these attacks occurred in March 2017. My statement concerning ground forces was directed at the paper you added to the thread, that showed the so called impact crater.

Is your explanation of how the chemical was delivered consistent with testimony?

There was no witness testimony concerning the impact crater in the road that I am aware of. The main Witness testimony was when the Choking agent Chlorine was delivered using barrel bombs. According to that testimony marked Syrian Helicopters were the delivery system that dropped the Barrels on the civilian population centers. 

Also the paper actually provides an analysis that specifically rules out either a rocket or a bomb as being the delivery method for a chemical weapon in this instance.

I have no idea what which Paper you are speaking about, the paper you provided that analysis the cratering effects certainly doesn't rule out the usec of 122mm Artillery Rockets. In fact the entire paper and its theory is based upon their use. I think you should post a link to the paper your currently talking about, so we are both clear on the speaking points.

As to what might have caused the crater it also makes clear that detailed discussion about why other scenarios were ruled out was beyond its scope.

Again please post the paper your talking about.

It should also be noted that in this respect you not only disagree with a group led by a very experienced academic/professor of Physics who specialises in weapons delivery, but also with the OPCW experts as well as US experts, who have also considered plausible explanations for the crater and obviously discounted yours (and didn't even seem to find it worth discussing).

Yes .I am disagreeing with them because none of them were on the ground. All their information was second hand information and photographs. Your paper also doesn't give a clear source where their information comes from. The crater in question isn't discussed by the OPCW or the US Experts in any documentation I have seen. The only discussion of the crater your talking about is in the paper you provided and that was an independent group of Scientists using that Single crater as the basis of the entire scientific paper they wrote. I don't disagree that the individuals are Acedemics and well respected, what I disagree with is the data that was provided to them that they based their theory on. If there is another paper or information that I am over looking please post it. But do not attempt to make comments that are not based upon the information we have used in this thread, like I said post links to the documentation your comments are based upon.

 What you have graciously supplied is another opinion backed by diagrams etc but it doesn't begin to critique, let alone rebut the points of this analysis itself, you do realise that?

No, I have not supplied an opinion, that is your department.  Everything I have added or said is backed up with sources if information and I have supplied 99% of all the documentation used in our discussion. The only thing you have supplied is a single document based upon second hand information with a source that isn't clearly defined. The only thing that they multiple page  document discusses is  a single impact crater in land that looks like the moon where craters are around every turn. I have rebutted the points of that crater, and the statement in the paper that 122mm rocket created it. 

This particular incident occurred in a strongly held rebel area. Expecting the Syrian government to assure access and safety to such an area doesn't seem reasonable. So even allowing truth to your claim overall, it is irrelevant in this instance. Though, how is refusing to divulge methodology that would have allowed genuine critique, and refusing to explain how conclusions were reached, cooperating?

Yes it occurred in a strongly held rebel area, but the only people who would have been in danger entering it were Syrian Givernment forces, those you called dangerous rebels were in fact Kurdish forces loyal to the United States. The Syrian and Russian Givernments were the only obstacle blocking the way. Our interpreters had already spoken with those scary rebels  and we had safe passage to carry out an investigation. However, the Syrian government and Russian would not allow it because they could not have entered safely and their need to micromanage was the only obstacle we faced. To put it bluntly, I was more concerned about my personal safety when in the company of loyal Syrian government forces and Russian representatives than I ever was when accompanied by the Kurdish Rebel forces.

The only polling done around the start of the conflict (by Qatar ?) showed overwhelming support for Assad, despite him appearing an oppressive dictator. It surprised a lot of people. Not sure if such a thing is possible now, but correspondents (the ones who who don't have a history of being  propagandists) have far more access to both sides and would certainly know more than yourself as well as some relevant academics seem to indicate that the current govt and its dictator are thought a better option by the majority than risking the uncertainty of the rebels with all of their militant and extremist factions. Looking at what has eventuated in other western led regime changes, this might be understandable.

I don't claim to know the politics involved in the Syrian Civil War, and I never have made that claim. However, I do understand the mechanisms of the use and deployment of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical agents during attacks far better than any of the bews correspondents your speaking of, it's people like me they come to for the information they report. As far as your use of militant extremist factions that were present they supported the US in their fight against ISIS, Now unless they were members of ISIS or members of the Syrian defense forces they posed no threat to Investigators or Americans. There is one thing that is very clear your knowledge and your ideas are not based upon any experience what so ever. Everything you base your opinion upon is nothing but second hand information gleaned from media sites. That doesn't allow you to discuss this subject unobjectionablely, your opinion is biased and based upon the media source that in your opinion is most convincing and that fits your preconceived notions. Last, as far as propaganda is concerned that is what you appear to follow, your belief in the narrative released by the Syrian Government and by the Russians seems much more important to you than anything else. Now that's  fine with me, and .I don't want to or would not even attempt to change your opinion on the subject. 

Again, he might be a war criminal, but that is a serious thing to claim and coupled with the history of western propaganda and lies (WMD's doesn't help) you aren't convincing.

Your comments are hilarious and they prove what .I have suspected all along. It is very clear that you support the Syrian and Russians Governments narrative on this subject. I had a feeling many pages ago that you did support them. After reading the above comments you have made and the comments you made throughout this thread it is crystal clear what your agenda is, and what you purpose for this conversation has been all along. You have intentionally attempted to inject proganda and misinformation into our conversation while attempting to say that it was the US and allied forces spreading the propaganda. Well my friend actually I have had you pegged from the start, I have just waited until it is was clear for all to see. Anyone who reads this thread can clearly see your affiliation and your intended purpose. All I can say is thanks for being transparent enough to show your true intentions.

In summary thanks for clearing up and allowing anyone who reads our comments across this thread to see your true intention for this conversation, and thanks for being civil. At this point .I am going to bow out of this conversation I no longer want to give you platform to inject your propaganda and misinformation.

Take Care, 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Scholar4Truth]

Looks like Russia has pulled back https://www.axios.com/russia-end-troop-buildup-ukraine-border-crimea-71130445-3db1-4ad0-b988-4a6671369aa1.html

[Duke Wellington]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:58 PM, Manwon Lender said:

President Joe Biden on Tuesday urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to de-escalate tensions as thousands of Russian troops gathered along the Ukrainian border, while proposing a summit in a third country in the near future as relations between Washington and Moscow hit their lowest point in decades.

NATO stands with Ukraine," he said. "Russia must end this military buildup in and around Ukraine, stop its provocations and de-escalate immediately."  And German Chancellor Angela Merkel in a phone call with Putin last week demanded the Russian leader reduce the troop presence "in order to de-escalate the situation," the German government said in a statement, according to Reuters.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-issues-warning-to-putin-proposes-summit-as-russian-troops-amass-along-the-ukrainian-border/ar-BB1fC35B

 

Its show boating and playing to their supporters.

Russia isn`t stupid, the EU cannot afford to loose Russian gas and oil because most of its member states lack their own. And NATO isn`t strong enough to beat Russia in an open conflict with them. Our AMDs will only knock out about 20% of Russian MIRVs. The propaganda says 50% and even if we go with that then 2 MIRVs at each target and its good night Vienna.

I have no doubt the summit will happen, it will be portrayed as a victory, but behind the scenes they will listen to what Russia says and make concessions to smooth things over in Ukraine. Like guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea, making sure all sanctions are just token gestures, and forcing Ukraine to stop its discrimination of Russian expats in Ukraine.

[Grim Reaper 6]

27 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Its show boating and playing to their supporters.

Russia isn`t stupid, the EU cannot afford to loose Russian gas and oil because most of its member states lack their own. And NATO isn`t strong enough to beat Russia in an open conflict with them. Our AMDs will only knock out about 20% of Russian MIRVs. The propaganda says 50% and even if we go with that then 2 MIRVs at each target and its good night Vienna.

I have no doubt the summit will happen, it will be portrayed as a victory, but behind the scenes they will listen to what Russia says and make concessions to smooth things over in Ukraine. Like guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea, making sure all sanctions are just token gestures, and forcing Ukraine to stop its discrimination of Russian expats in Ukraine.

You are not well versed in this conversation based upon your comments above. I suggest you try to study the topic a little , but do whatever makes you happy. Because honestly you are welcome to your opinion, but that's all it is and I refuse to discuss anyone's opinion. If you want to discuss the subject I will be glad to do so, as soon you present sources of information that support you beliefs. The idea of a conversation here is to direct our comments at source's not at each other.

Peace

[Grim Reaper 6]

36 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

Looks like Russia has pulled back https://www.axios.com/russia-end-troop-buildup-ukraine-border-crimea-71130445-3db1-4ad0-b988-4a6671369aa1.html

That's a positive thing, but I dont agree that it was done to see how the US, EU, and NATO would respond. Russia is in a severe financial crisis, the Resources and the Money they spent to do this is far to much for what some think their intentions were. I believe that their intentions were very clear, and if the US, EU, and NATO did not respond like they have they would have invaded, which was their true intention all along. 

But, I must admit it does make me chuckle that Putin blinked because that shows weakness and weakness in the Russian Federation can cause your your death!!

[Horta]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

I have no idea what which Paper you are speaking about, the paper you provided that analysis the cratering effects certainly doesn't rule out the usec of 122mm Artillery Rockets. In fact the entire paper and its theory is based upon their use. I think you should post a link to the paper your currently talking about, so we are both clear on the speaking points.

You may wish to actually read the paper Manwon, it seems you might have skimmed it. At least it's obvious you haven't understood it, you seem to have missed the entire point.

"It therefore can be stated with substantial confidence that the observed crater is consistent with the impact of an improvised rocket that used a standard 122 mm explosive warhead. If that is the case, the munition that created the crater could not have been used as a sarin delivery device, since in the model considered in this analysis, the volume of the improvised rocket would be used up by the propellant and the explosive warhead. The split pipe that the JIM report identified as evidence of a container filled with sarin is simply the casing of the rocket motor that propelled the warhead to the location of the explosion."

Thus ruling out that a rocket (or by implication, a bomb) was used as the delivery device, wouldn't it?

 

How would you also explain why the OPCW experts as well as those from the US entirely disagree with you?

Edited April 23, 2021 by Horta

[Grim Reaper 6]

9 hours ago, Horta said:

What made the crater doesn't really matter that much though unless it can be shown it was the delivery method of a chemical weapon and used at that time, which is what matters. 

If that were true why did your experts write 

1 hour ago, Horta said:

You may wish to actually read the paper Manwon, it seems you might have skimmed it. At least it's obvious you haven't understood it, you seem to have missed the entire point.

"It therefore can be stated with substantial confidence that the observed crater is consistent with the impact of an improvised rocket that used a standard 122 mm explosive warhead. If that is the case, the munition that created the crater could not have been used as a sarin delivery device, since in the model considered in this analysis, the volume of the improvised rocket would be used up by the propellant and the explosive warhead. The split pipe that the JIM report identified as evidence of a container filled with sarin is simply the casing of the rocket motor that propelled the warhead to the location of the explosion."

How would you also explain why the OPCW experts as well as those from the US entirely disagree with you?

You haven't supplied "papers" as such, articles from US military personnel via an Israeli think tank lol (that are irrelevant anyway) and a one page preview from ex US defence dept personnel in a journal devoted to US foreign policy, don't really amount to "papers".  You might as well cite Fox or CNN articles. Though you have also flooded with links to UN which are mostly about resolutions, statements from members and so on. There is a link to a relevant report amongst it though, in that it is considered not only very contentious by people involved with it from the OPCW itself, but some feel it might have destroyed the OPCW's credibility, we haven't even really got to that yet.

? 

From your own linked documents. There are others but this should do.

 

I never said that crater was the source of chemical contamination, I only said that your experts that analyzed the crater impact stated it was the result of a 122mm rocket. 

Post a link your quote above, I have posted so many papers on the subject I am not aware which one you are referring to. 

What is truly ridiculous is your support for the Syrian regime and the fact that you are spreading their propaganda in this thread. My links did not come from Fox or CNN news media sources like those that you have based your opinion upon, not me. The only people who have tried to discredit the UN-Jim, the OPCW and the US inspectors like myself are people that also have your opinion support the Syrian and Russian Governments which your opinion supports. So let me be clear, the Syrians and the Russians cant have their credibility stained because they have no credibility in the International Community. So like I said in my post, I am done, I am not going to give you a platform to spread Syrian and Russian propaganda, you can start a thread where you can do that, but I can assure you I will not be involved in it.

By the way on the 20th here, not your time I spent the day with a gentleman I worked with in Syria. He is now assigned to NATO Headquarters Korea, and we discussed this subject at great length. He wasn't amazed at the propaganda that is being spread by the Syrian and Russian Governments, what surprised him was the way that people will aggravate towards that propaganda if it fits their agenda. Anyway our discussion here was worth the laughter we enjoyed during lunch, and he was very helpful because he saw this conversation the same way I did and he also saw the futility of continuing to carry it forward.

Take care.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Duke Wellington]

13 minutes ago, Horta said:

You may wish to actually read the paper Manwon, it seems you might have skimmed it. At least it's obvious you haven't understood it, you seem to have missed the entire point.

"It therefore can be stated with substantial confidence that the observed crater is consistent with the impact of an improvised rocket that used a standard 122 mm explosive warhead. If that is the case, the munition that created the crater could not have been used as a sarin delivery device, since in the model considered in this analysis, the volume of the improvised rocket would be used up by the propellant and the explosive warhead. The split pipe that the JIM report identified as evidence of a container filled with sarin is simply the casing of the rocket motor that propelled the warhead to the location of the explosion."

How would you also explain why the OPCW experts as well as those from the US entirely disagree with you?

He gets his `facts` from left wing media sources.

He isn`t interested in hearing all sides of arguments.

The problem in Ukraine is that the EU toppled the legitimate elected Ukrainian Government in a military coup using two minor far right parties. They aligned with them to help them because they are pro-EU. Unfortunately the catch is that with them being far-right they are pro-Ukrainian when it has a lot of Russian citizens and citizens with some Russian descent.

They legislated against citizens with dual Russian and Ukrainian nationality threating those who didnt give up their Russian citizenship with imprisonment. Russia went into the Crimea a few days after they tabled their motions in the Ukrainian Parliament to make Russian citizenship illegal. Russia also has a strategic interest in Crimea which was a huge miscalculation by the West. It is home to their Black Sea naval base and thus their own direct means of supporting their allies Syrian and Iran without taking an extremely long route around.

So Russia went into Crimea, an area of the Ukraine where most of the citizens are of Russian descent. The East of Ukraine is also another area of the Ukraine where a large percentage of the population are Russian or have some Russian descent. The build up of Russian forces was because they had concerns about the safety of those people in Eastern Ukraine because they has been further legislation against them.

The EU thought it would win so tried to push Russia around and coerce them. It failed because Russia isn`t weak. A much better approach would have been to say to the original Ukrainian Government why dont you get your people a referendum on joining the EU and lets make an allowances for Russia so they are kept happy should the vote be a yes. But they adopted a more aggressive approach and have de-stablised the region.

Manwon doesnt know about any of the above because he has a select source of media outlets he takes his information from. He has failed to see what Russia`s grievance is or to understand why they are acting in the way they do. He is no diplomat. The only way to smooth things out in Ukraine is to listen to the grievances of the other side and find a cooperative way forward where both sides are left happy. That is the crux of international relationships.

[Duke Wellington]

7 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I never said that crater was the source of chemical contamination, I only said that your experts that analyzed the crater impact stated it was the result of a 122mm rocket. 

Post a link your quote above, I have posted so many papers on the subject I am not aware which one you are referring to. 

What is truly ridiculous is your support for the Syrian regime and the fact that you are spreading their propaganda in this thread. My links did not come from Fox or CNN news media sources like those are what you have based your opinion upon, not me. The only people who have tried to discredit the UN-Jim, the OPCW and the US inspectors like myself are people that also have your opinion and the Syrian and Russian Governments which your opinion supports. So let me be clear, the Syrians and the Russians cant have their credibility stained because they have no credibility in the International Community. So like I said in my post, I am done, I am not going to give you a platform to spread Syrian and Russian propaganda, you can start a thread where you can you that, but I can assure you I will not be involved in it.

By the way on the 20th here, not your time I spent the day with a gentleman I worked with in Syria. He is now assigned to NATO Headquarters Korea, and we discussed this subject at great length. He wasn't amazed at the propaganda that is being spread by the Syrian and Russian Governments, what surprised him was the way that people will aggravate towards that propaganda if it fits their agenda. Anyway our discussion here was worth the laughter we enjoyed during lunch, and he was very helpful because he saw this conversation the same way I did and he also saw the futility of continuing to carry it fortward.

Take care.

If you want to understand the conflict properly then also have a look at Ukrainian and Russian news sites so you get their perceptions. And the news sides of countries neutral in the dispute.

But you dont do you?

Edited April 23, 2021 by Cookie Monster