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How does America's gun violence cycle end?


Grim Reaper 6

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17 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

I do agree that more mental health care would be a good thing.  We don't have that big of a difference though as far as the rate of mental illnesses here than in Australia, so unless there are vast differences in relative treatments (which is possible, I don't know) between our countries, then mental health's correlation with mass shootings provides an incomplete explanation (and I agree that just gun control differences also provide an incomplete explanation, again, very complicated).

I think one of the main difference is population density.   

USA - 330 million people/ 3.8 million square miles

Australia - 25 million people/ 3 million square miles

For many people with mental issues, having to be around and deal with lots of people is hard.   Social interactions or being shunned from them hits people in odd ways.  

 

Just based on population, the USA should have 13 events to 1 in Australia.   

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23 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think one of the main difference is population density.   

USA - 330 million people/ 3.8 million square miles

Australia - 25 million people/ 3 million square miles

For many people with mental issues, having to be around and deal with lots of people is hard.   Social interactions or being shunned from them hits people in odd ways.  

Could be, although it looks like our homicide rate appears to be 35-40 times Australia's.  I know as much about Australia as movies and tv have taught me, but I thought most Australians lived close the coasts because the inner part is the outback where dingoes and every imaginable creature who has venom rule the land.  Then again we have Alaska also.  It'd be interesting to know what proportion of the Australian population lives in higher density areas.

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2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Could be, although it looks like our homicide rate appears to be 35-40 times Australia's.  I know as much about Australia as movies and tv have taught me, but I thought most Australians lived close the coasts because the inner part is the outback where dingoes and every imaginable creature who has venom rule the land.  Then again we have Alaska also.  It'd be interesting to know what proportion of the Australian population lives in higher density areas.

You're right.  Including the desert and semi arid landscapes does not reflect the personal experience of population density.  Inner city Melbourne has a population density of over 20,000 people per square kilometre.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/australia-population-density-fastest-growing-regions-2019-3

One of the concerns during the pandemic was how isolation affected mental health as humans are social animals.

But, who can argue with the logic that the rates of mental health and violence in deserts is very low?

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16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You are correct, I didn't phrase that correctly, you did say 'no', you don't believe it is in our best interest to keep 'too many people' from owning automated weapons. What I meant to say is that the reason you gave for that, that automatic weapons are currently too expensive, doesn't necessarily fully address the question.  Let me rephrase, if automatic weapons were not too expensive, do you believe it is in our best interest to restrict, significantly, who owns them.

Convicted criminals and those with mental health illness issues for sure.

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Doesn't an automatic weapon have more potential for mayhem and destruction,

Well if you want to get technical about it, it really depends on the caliber. Imagine what 50 cal. machine gun would do to a house. Lots of wall ventilation I wager.

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which you specifically stated was the reason why we shouldn't have race cars on the streets, than race cars?

Which you are leading up to, trying to use as a reason to ban semi-automatic weapons, when overall it's an apples and oranges comparison.

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That is not evidence that banning semi-automatic weapons "is an issue".

It was an issue back when they were banned. Why wouldn't it be an issue now if they were banned again?

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These details on race cars doesn't really have anything to do with your claim, you made the comment that we don't allow race cars on streets because of 'mayhem' and major accidents,

Once again, which you are leading up to, in order to suit your argument, trying to use as a reason to ban semi-automatic weapons when it's an apples and oranges comparison. One of them is not even physically feasible on open public roads in the first place.

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not because it's going to scrape the undercarriage of the car on the road.

Scrape? No not scrape, LG, I scrape the undercarriage of my regular car sometimes when I run over dead animals and trash on public roads, and in my truck, offroad, like on rocks or stumps that just catch the axle, so not the same thing as bottoming out. I said bottom out at higher speeds and getting catapulted into mid-air off the road. What happens is you hit a narrow low spot while driving fast and it bounces you up off the ground, launching you in whichever direction your F1 car was going at the time. So you're really flying with no ground traction. All four wheels off the ground. Can't you understand that?

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"Why should law-abiding and skilled race cars drivers be punished because of the non law-abiding ones"

:lol:

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I agree and guns do; this seems like an anti-gun argument or pro-F1 argument, guns are more dangerous because they are made to purposely kill things.

Oh man the irony, and yet, you actually made a unheard of "pro-F1 argument" above. Sounds like a line some character would say in a fantasy world comedy movie about F1 race cars. :D

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"Why should responsible nuke owners be have their rights restricted just because...", you get the picture.

No I really don't. Not with nukes. I get the feeling you weren't expecting the "nuke" answer either.

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I don't understand what you think is so 'odd' about this, I quoted what I was replying to from you.  The fact is that the effect of gun control on crime numbers is not something that can be easily measured, it's very complicated. You first brought up Mexico and South Africa and that "Crime rates with illegal guns are still just as bad in those mentioned countries as here in the U.S., yet those mentioned countries have extreme gun regulations.", you also have clearly 'singled them out'.  So in response to that I singled out Singapore which is at the opposite end as a response to your point, I used your same logic from the opposite position.  Why is your point about Mexico not countered by Singapore, why is Mexico relevant and not Singapore?  I'll see your 'Singapore has extreme, barbaric punishments' and raise you 'Mexico has rampant drug cartels'.  You made the point, 'some countries who have gun control nonetheless have bad crime rates', and I pointed out that some don't and have favorable crime rates.  So I guess we are back to the beginning, to before you brought up Mexico at all.

Yeah? Oh cool! Since you say so, than I might as well repeat myself again. And I don't mind if I do.

Ahem!

"I recommend you guys check out Mexico and South Africa and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions. In the news an armored truck almost got taken out by highway robbers shooting semi- autos at the armored truck in Johannesburg, South Africa. The guard/driver managed to get away from the robbers and save their skins that time around, but apparently it something that happens a lot over there and yet they have gun restrictions that restrict owning AK-47's and other similar weapons.

The criminals are having a heyday, getting the upper hand, in both those countries with gun restrictions down to a minimal. And decent citizens worried about be victims of crime most of the time."

 

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South Africa and Mexico?

Corrupt government, lands run by criminals. People slaughtered in great numbers by outlaws protected by the economy. 

They can have flame throwers attached to their cars yon South Africa. That's comparable to any western nations? White farmers are slaughtered in their homes and body's desecrated. Cartels slaughtering people, bodies in the side of the road a common sight. 

That's not comparable in the least. Neither one of our governments are comparable to theirs nor is daily life. 

I don't remember Oscar Pistorius being charged with owning a deadly weapon. Just murder. 

Apples and oranges are too similar to apply to this comparison. 

Edited by psyche101
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10 hours ago, Gunn said:

It was an issue back when they were banned. Why wouldn't it be an issue now if they were banned again?

Again, state what the issue was?  You've already agreed that it is okay to have bans on things.  "We banned semi-automatics in the past and that caused bad things like <insert issue detail here>".

10 hours ago, Gunn said:

What happens is you hit a narrow low spot while driving fast and it bounces you up off the ground, launching you in whichever direction your F1 car was going at the time. So you're really flying with no ground traction. All four wheels off the ground. Can't you understand that?

Do you understand that cities have already had Grand Prix races on city streets?  Here's a note from wiki on the Detroit Grand Prix, emphasis mine: "The race dates back to 1982 when it was a Formula One World Championship event held on the Detroit street circuit encompassing the Renaissance Center. The original circuit was 2.493 miles (4.012 km) with seventeen corners and proved to be even slower than Monaco. The rough, demanding course included a railroad track crossing and mimicked Monaco, with a tunnel on the main straight.".

I can't find any reports of 'mayhem'...

10 hours ago, Gunn said:

"I recommend you guys check out Mexico and South Africa and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions. In the news an armored truck almost got taken out by highway robbers shooting semi- autos at the armored truck in Johannesburg, South Africa. The guard/driver managed to get away from the robbers and save their skins that time around, but apparently it something that happens a lot over there and yet they have gun restrictions that restrict owning AK-47's and other similar weapons.

The criminals are having a heyday, getting the upper hand, in both those countries with gun restrictions down to a minimal. And decent citizens worried about be victims of crime most of the time."

This is really not that difficult a point, I don't understand why you don't get it.

"I recommend you check out Singapore and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions.  Apparently there is very little crime relatively and yet they have gun restrictions.

The criminals are being squashed, not getting the upper hand, and with gun restrictions at pretty much the max.  And decent citizens don't have to be worried about being the victims of crime most of the time"

State the point that you are making that is not exactly countered by my comment, I am using your reasoning and logic here.

 

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12 hours ago, psyche101 said:

South Africa and Mexico?

Corrupt government, lands run by criminals. People slaughtered in great numbers

 

Sounds similar to the USA.  Our government is absolutely corrupt.   Gangs and cartels run much land in inner cities as beyond.  These gangs kill many people.  Over 750 shooting deaths in Chicago last year.  

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2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

"I recommend you check out Singapore and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions.  Apparently there is very little crime relatively and yet they have gun restrictions.

The criminals are being squashed, not getting the upper hand, and with gun restrictions at pretty much the max.  And decent citizens don't have to be worried about being the victims of crime most of the time"

 

 

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

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1 hour ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier

And Mexico isn't?

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6 hours ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

bring back public execution.  it worked.

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Round up some for bleeding hearts to house or camp in their backyard?

re: 

 

10 minutes ago, aztek said:

bring back public execution.  it worked

 

 

Edited by Nosy.Matters
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6 hours ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

yep, exactly-- although to me (i no doubt to you i would guess) it's bleeding obvious why there's less crime

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On 5/14/2021 at 9:12 PM, Dejarma said:

yep, exactly-- although to me (i no doubt to you i would guess) it's bleeding obvious why there's less crime

Yep.   Severe punishments lowers the amount of people who break laws.

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On 5/15/2021 at 4:34 AM, Myles said:

Sounds similar to the USA.  Our government is absolutely corrupt.   Gangs and cartels run much land in inner cities as beyond.  These gangs kill many people.  Over 750 shooting deaths in Chicago last year.  

Similar?

I wonder if you would last a day in either of those countries. 

For the last four years, you guys voted in the most corrupt fool in the western nations. The corrupt government line isn't applicable. If things are that bad then you all dropped the ball and allowed tyranny so the second should be revoked on that basis and if that's how bad the US is, then one might hope another power takes over and fixes the place.

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On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

Again, state what the issue was?  You've already agreed that it is okay to have bans on things.

Things? plural. As in other things too? No I only mentioned nukes. 

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"We banned semi-automatics in the past and that caused bad things like <insert issue detail here>".

Guess my last reply didn't make it clear enough for you. It's obvious that I don't care if banning semi-autos causes good or bad things, much like you don't care about the difference between full-auto and semi-auto guns. What I care about is that they did it and it proves to me they'll eventually do it again. As a matter of fact, nobody can deny they've been trying to do it again, as my point has always been. So the bottom line is, that gun owners have to draw the line somewhere on banning guns out of the hands of law-abiding gun owners. Anti-gun proponents want to ban guns for everybody, instead of concentrating specifically on keeping guns out of the hands of the criminals and maniacs. That's like throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

Do you understand that cities have already had Grand Prix races on city streets?  Here's a note from wiki on the Detroit Grand Prix, emphasis mine: "The race dates back to 1982 when it was a Formula One World Championship event held on the Detroit street circuit encompassing the Renaissance Center. The original circuit was 2.493 miles (4.012 km) with seventeen corners and proved to be even slower than Monaco. The rough, demanding course included a railroad track crossing and mimicked Monaco, with a tunnel on the main straight.".

Seems to me that is not what you meant when you said "We have roads you can drive race cars down and a skilled race car driver is unlikely to cause 'mayhem' or you were being extremely vague about it.  Because you certainly didn't bother to mention Detroit's old city streets that had been modified, converted into a loop, and resurfaced flat with concrete for the specific purpose of F1/Cart racing. That makes a helluva difference, Slick.

The way you use certain words and they way you phrase things, concerning this argument about F1 race cars, you make it out like any F1 race car can be physically driven on every public road all across the United States, without making modifications to the roads. Yet any F1/Cart race track has to be specifically designed in a loop and the roads need to constructed or reconstructed to suit those low riding race cars.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

I can't find any reports of 'mayhem'...

Besides the accidents they've had racing F1/Carts on that track? If so, could it be because they blocked off all common traffic from driving on the track during a race?

 

On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

This is really not that difficult a point, I don't understand why you don't get it.

"I recommend you check out Singapore and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions.  Apparently there is very little crime relatively and yet they have gun restrictions.

The criminals are being squashed, not getting the upper hand, and with gun restrictions at pretty much the max.  And decent citizens don't have to be worried about being the victims of crime most of the time"

:w00t: SOLD! Lol. Man I love this game. What else you got for sale? But I only got about $500 in monopoly money left.

On 5/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

State the point that you are making that is not exactly countered by my comment, I am using your reasoning and logic here.

Lol. No you assumed that was my reasoning and logic in my post.  Anti-gun proponents needs to explain why gun control is not working in Mexico and South Africa, since anti-gun proponents believe more gun control by banning semi-automatics is needed for the U.S.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gunn said:

...

Lol. No you assumed that was my reasoning and logic in my post.  Anti-gun proponents needs to explain why gun control is not working in Mexico and South Africa, since anti-gun proponents believe more gun control by banning semi-automatics is needed for the U.S.

Well gun control doesn't work in South Africa because, effectively, there's no gun control in South Africa.

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14 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Well gun control doesn't work in South Africa because, effectively, there's no gun control in South Africa.

Well the SA government seem to think it's effective on law-abiding SA citizens.

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5 minutes ago, Gunn said:

Well the SA government seem to think it's effective on law-abiding SA citizens.

Then why is there a new bill available for public comment this year?

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2 hours ago, Gunn said:

The way you use certain words and they way you phrase things, concerning this argument about F1 race cars, you make it out like any F1 race car can be physically driven on every public road all across the United States

No, that's just what we call a strawman.

2 hours ago, Gunn said:

Anti-gun proponents needs to explain why gun control is not working in Mexico and South Africa, since anti-gun proponents believe more gun control by banning semi-automatics is needed for the U.S.

It's already been explained why crime is high in Mexico and South Africa.  As long as we're making rules up, pro-gun proponents similarly need to explain why criminals with guns are not going terrorizing the unarmed Singapore population.  These are major crimes so 'fear of caning' doesn't quite adequately explain it... 

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On 5/13/2021 at 12:30 AM, psyche101 said:

We do care. That's why regulation worked. America is not community orientated. It's all about the individual. That's how it looks and that's how it is. And it looks bad. And it's not great. 

As I've always contended, it's all about virtue signaling for you folks.  Americans are brutish and uncaring while you folks are enlightened and so much more moral.  You got it partially correct.  We don't care what others think about us.  Why should we?  Our actions don't harm you or those you love.  Frankly, it's kind of weird, the obsession many of you have about our internal issues.  But hey, mate, if it makes you feel taller, enjoy.

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1 hour ago, and then said:

As I've always contended, it's all about virtue signaling for you folks.  Americans are brutish and uncaring while you folks are enlightened and so much more moral.  You got it partially correct.  We don't care what others think about us.  Why should we?  Our actions don't harm you or those you love.  Frankly, it's kind of weird, the obsession many of you have about our internal issues.  But hey, mate, if it makes you feel taller, enjoy.

I wouldn't say that. Brutish and uncaring, I think you are a wimp if you think you need a gun to protect yourself. Brutish implies strength. Needing a gun shows no ability to defend without an unfair advantage. Most people consider those wielding an unfiar advantage bullies. 

And that's what gun nuts are. Bullies. Not allowing a say to those who want regulation and the positive outcome that accompanies that. As you are good with bullying enjoy. While you can. And bury the innocents dead because of your wants with the tears of those who lost them. What you call virtue signalling is what most others would call a conscience. I hope you faith offers you one, one day. 

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4 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Then why is there a new bill available for public comment this year?

Because they obviously want to eventually ban all firearms.

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4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

No, that's just what we call a strawman misleading.

Hey fixed that for you and you certainly did. ;)

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It's already been explained why crime is high in Mexico and South Africa.  As long as we're making rules up, pro-gun proponents similarly need to explain why criminals with guns are not going terrorizing the unarmed Singapore population.  These are major crimes so 'fear of caning' doesn't quite adequately explain it... 

Lol. No it hasn't, not by a long shot, and all I've seen so far is speculative opinions, not authoritative expert opinions. Singapore is irrelevant to my question, and I'll keep repeating that.

I know one thing. We are going to be at this forever until the mods shut this thread down.

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9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Brutish and uncaring,

Needless to say I wouldn't put much stock in the impressions of what 'Americans' are like from our most extremist citizens...

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10 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I wouldn't say that. Brutish and uncaring, I think you are a wimp if you think you need a gun to protect yourself. Brutish implies strength. Needing a gun shows no ability to defend without an unfair advantage. Most people consider those wielding an unfiar advantage bullies. 

And that's what gun nuts are. Bullies. Not allowing a say to those who want regulation and the positive outcome that accompanies that. As you are good with bullying enjoy. While you can. And bury the innocents dead because of your wants with the tears of those who lost them. What you call virtue signalling is what most others would call a conscience. I hope you faith offers you one, one day. 

Bullies?   You are going further and further off the rails.   I am far from a bully.   I live in a house that is secluded and a prime house for someone to rob.  My guns provide protection for me.  

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