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Manwon Lender

How does America's gun violence cycle end?

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Myles
17 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

I do agree that more mental health care would be a good thing.  We don't have that big of a difference though as far as the rate of mental illnesses here than in Australia, so unless there are vast differences in relative treatments (which is possible, I don't know) between our countries, then mental health's correlation with mass shootings provides an incomplete explanation (and I agree that just gun control differences also provide an incomplete explanation, again, very complicated).

I think one of the main difference is population density.   

USA - 330 million people/ 3.8 million square miles

Australia - 25 million people/ 3 million square miles

For many people with mental issues, having to be around and deal with lots of people is hard.   Social interactions or being shunned from them hits people in odd ways.  

 

Just based on population, the USA should have 13 events to 1 in Australia.   

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Liquid Gardens
23 minutes ago, Myles said:

I think one of the main difference is population density.   

USA - 330 million people/ 3.8 million square miles

Australia - 25 million people/ 3 million square miles

For many people with mental issues, having to be around and deal with lots of people is hard.   Social interactions or being shunned from them hits people in odd ways.  

Could be, although it looks like our homicide rate appears to be 35-40 times Australia's.  I know as much about Australia as movies and tv have taught me, but I thought most Australians lived close the coasts because the inner part is the outback where dingoes and every imaginable creature who has venom rule the land.  Then again we have Alaska also.  It'd be interesting to know what proportion of the Australian population lives in higher density areas.

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Golden Duck
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Could be, although it looks like our homicide rate appears to be 35-40 times Australia's.  I know as much about Australia as movies and tv have taught me, but I thought most Australians lived close the coasts because the inner part is the outback where dingoes and every imaginable creature who has venom rule the land.  Then again we have Alaska also.  It'd be interesting to know what proportion of the Australian population lives in higher density areas.

You're right.  Including the desert and semi arid landscapes does not reflect the personal experience of population density.  Inner city Melbourne has a population density of over 20,000 people per square kilometre.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/australia-population-density-fastest-growing-regions-2019-3

One of the concerns during the pandemic was how isolation affected mental health as humans are social animals.

But, who can argue with the logic that the rates of mental health and violence in deserts is very low?

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Gunn
16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You are correct, I didn't phrase that correctly, you did say 'no', you don't believe it is in our best interest to keep 'too many people' from owning automated weapons. What I meant to say is that the reason you gave for that, that automatic weapons are currently too expensive, doesn't necessarily fully address the question.  Let me rephrase, if automatic weapons were not too expensive, do you believe it is in our best interest to restrict, significantly, who owns them.

Convicted criminals and those with mental health illness issues for sure.

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Doesn't an automatic weapon have more potential for mayhem and destruction,

Well if you want to get technical about it, it really depends on the caliber. Imagine what 50 cal. machine gun would do to a house. Lots of wall ventilation I wager.

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which you specifically stated was the reason why we shouldn't have race cars on the streets, than race cars?

Which you are leading up to, trying to use as a reason to ban semi-automatic weapons, when overall it's an apples and oranges comparison.

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That is not evidence that banning semi-automatic weapons "is an issue".

It was an issue back when they were banned. Why wouldn't it be an issue now if they were banned again?

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These details on race cars doesn't really have anything to do with your claim, you made the comment that we don't allow race cars on streets because of 'mayhem' and major accidents,

Once again, which you are leading up to, in order to suit your argument, trying to use as a reason to ban semi-automatic weapons when it's an apples and oranges comparison. One of them is not even physically feasible on open public roads in the first place.

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not because it's going to scrape the undercarriage of the car on the road.

Scrape? No not scrape, LG, I scrape the undercarriage of my regular car sometimes when I run over dead animals and trash on public roads, and in my truck, offroad, like on rocks or stumps that just catch the axle, so not the same thing as bottoming out. I said bottom out at higher speeds and getting catapulted into mid-air off the road. What happens is you hit a narrow low spot while driving fast and it bounces you up off the ground, launching you in whichever direction your F1 car was going at the time. So you're really flying with no ground traction. All four wheels off the ground. Can't you understand that?

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"Why should law-abiding and skilled race cars drivers be punished because of the non law-abiding ones"

:lol:

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I agree and guns do; this seems like an anti-gun argument or pro-F1 argument, guns are more dangerous because they are made to purposely kill things.

Oh man the irony, and yet, you actually made a unheard of "pro-F1 argument" above. Sounds like a line some character would say in a fantasy world comedy movie about F1 race cars. :D

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"Why should responsible nuke owners be have their rights restricted just because...", you get the picture.

No I really don't. Not with nukes. I get the feeling you weren't expecting the "nuke" answer either.

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I don't understand what you think is so 'odd' about this, I quoted what I was replying to from you.  The fact is that the effect of gun control on crime numbers is not something that can be easily measured, it's very complicated. You first brought up Mexico and South Africa and that "Crime rates with illegal guns are still just as bad in those mentioned countries as here in the U.S., yet those mentioned countries have extreme gun regulations.", you also have clearly 'singled them out'.  So in response to that I singled out Singapore which is at the opposite end as a response to your point, I used your same logic from the opposite position.  Why is your point about Mexico not countered by Singapore, why is Mexico relevant and not Singapore?  I'll see your 'Singapore has extreme, barbaric punishments' and raise you 'Mexico has rampant drug cartels'.  You made the point, 'some countries who have gun control nonetheless have bad crime rates', and I pointed out that some don't and have favorable crime rates.  So I guess we are back to the beginning, to before you brought up Mexico at all.

Yeah? Oh cool! Since you say so, than I might as well repeat myself again. And I don't mind if I do.

Ahem!

"I recommend you guys check out Mexico and South Africa and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions. In the news an armored truck almost got taken out by highway robbers shooting semi- autos at the armored truck in Johannesburg, South Africa. The guard/driver managed to get away from the robbers and save their skins that time around, but apparently it something that happens a lot over there and yet they have gun restrictions that restrict owning AK-47's and other similar weapons.

The criminals are having a heyday, getting the upper hand, in both those countries with gun restrictions down to a minimal. And decent citizens worried about be victims of crime most of the time."

 

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psyche101

South Africa and Mexico?

Corrupt government, lands run by criminals. People slaughtered in great numbers by outlaws protected by the economy. 

They can have flame throwers attached to their cars yon South Africa. That's comparable to any western nations? White farmers are slaughtered in their homes and body's desecrated. Cartels slaughtering people, bodies in the side of the road a common sight. 

That's not comparable in the least. Neither one of our governments are comparable to theirs nor is daily life. 

I don't remember Oscar Pistorius being charged with owning a deadly weapon. Just murder. 

Apples and oranges are too similar to apply to this comparison. 

Edited by psyche101
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Liquid Gardens
10 hours ago, Gunn said:

It was an issue back when they were banned. Why wouldn't it be an issue now if they were banned again?

Again, state what the issue was?  You've already agreed that it is okay to have bans on things.  "We banned semi-automatics in the past and that caused bad things like <insert issue detail here>".

10 hours ago, Gunn said:

What happens is you hit a narrow low spot while driving fast and it bounces you up off the ground, launching you in whichever direction your F1 car was going at the time. So you're really flying with no ground traction. All four wheels off the ground. Can't you understand that?

Do you understand that cities have already had Grand Prix races on city streets?  Here's a note from wiki on the Detroit Grand Prix, emphasis mine: "The race dates back to 1982 when it was a Formula One World Championship event held on the Detroit street circuit encompassing the Renaissance Center. The original circuit was 2.493 miles (4.012 km) with seventeen corners and proved to be even slower than Monaco. The rough, demanding course included a railroad track crossing and mimicked Monaco, with a tunnel on the main straight.".

I can't find any reports of 'mayhem'...

10 hours ago, Gunn said:

"I recommend you guys check out Mexico and South Africa and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions. In the news an armored truck almost got taken out by highway robbers shooting semi- autos at the armored truck in Johannesburg, South Africa. The guard/driver managed to get away from the robbers and save their skins that time around, but apparently it something that happens a lot over there and yet they have gun restrictions that restrict owning AK-47's and other similar weapons.

The criminals are having a heyday, getting the upper hand, in both those countries with gun restrictions down to a minimal. And decent citizens worried about be victims of crime most of the time."

This is really not that difficult a point, I don't understand why you don't get it.

"I recommend you check out Singapore and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions.  Apparently there is very little crime relatively and yet they have gun restrictions.

The criminals are being squashed, not getting the upper hand, and with gun restrictions at pretty much the max.  And decent citizens don't have to be worried about being the victims of crime most of the time"

State the point that you are making that is not exactly countered by my comment, I am using your reasoning and logic here.

 

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Myles
12 hours ago, psyche101 said:

South Africa and Mexico?

Corrupt government, lands run by criminals. People slaughtered in great numbers

 

Sounds similar to the USA.  Our government is absolutely corrupt.   Gangs and cartels run much land in inner cities as beyond.  These gangs kill many people.  Over 750 shooting deaths in Chicago last year.  

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Myles
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

"I recommend you check out Singapore and see how they're doing with crime and their gun restrictions.  Apparently there is very little crime relatively and yet they have gun restrictions.

The criminals are being squashed, not getting the upper hand, and with gun restrictions at pretty much the max.  And decent citizens don't have to be worried about being the victims of crime most of the time"

 

 

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier

And Mexico isn't?

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aztek
6 hours ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

bring back public execution.  it worked.

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Nosy.Matters

Round up some for bleeding hearts to house or camp in their backyard?

re: 

 

10 minutes ago, aztek said:

bring back public execution.  it worked

 

 

Edited by Nosy.Matters
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Dejarma
6 hours ago, Myles said:

I wouldn't use Singapore as an example.   They are an outlier because of the severity of punishment.  

Mandatory caning for vandalism for example.   If we had that in the States, there wouldn't be much vandalism anymore.

yep, exactly-- although to me (i no doubt to you i would guess) it's bleeding obvious why there's less crime

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