Holding the line against Russia in Ukraine

[Grim Reaper 6]

Russia's menacing troop build-up near Ukraine's border and in our Crimean region in recent days is the latest reminder to our allies of the ongoing campaign of coercion, intimidation and escalation to which Ukrainians have unfortunately become accustomed.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/holding-the-line-against-russia-in-ukraine/ar-BB1fTxjF

[keithisco]

I am sorry but, the EU expansion into Ukraine is at the heart of this potential conflict. I have no idea what the EU were thinking but they have chosen to destabilise the entire region without the capability to defend their decision. Ukraine would have been just fine if they rejected EU interference. Bi-lateral Trade deals would have ensured Ukraine independence but no, the muppets at EU HQ thought otherwise

[+OverSword]

38 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I am sorry but, the EU expansion into Ukraine is at the heart of this potential conflict. I have no idea what the EU were thinking but they have chosen to destabilise the entire region without the capability to defend their decision. Ukraine would have been just fine if they rejected EU interference. Bi-lateral Trade deals would have ensured Ukraine independence but no, the muppets at EU HQ thought otherwise

How dare the Ukraine want to join the EU when they know damn well that Russia thinks they own them  

Maybe the EU should approach Russia to become a member as well.   That would be an interesting development.

[Helen of Annoy]

18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

How dare the Ukraine want to join the EU when they know damn well that Russia thinks they own them  

Thank you.

By the way, that pro-Russian... pro-Putin to be more precise... stance you quoted is typical for Brexiters, but they keep acting like they can't understand why they're being told they're pro-Russian. It's like they're so irrational they think they can do jedi mind tricks or something. 

 

18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Maybe the EU should approach Russia to become a member as well.   That would be an interesting development.

I keep saying that one day, in distant future, Russia will become EU member.

It's the natural development. I wish it could happen tomorrow. There's nothing wrong with Russians, they just have the crappiest historic luck. Worse than Balkans. We could all use some break. But noooo, there are soulless pricks that climb to power over corpses and I digress...   

[NE1]

I personally don't think anything will come of this, too costly of an endeavor for both nations in going to war. Russia are flexing their muscles and testing the Biden administration to see what they can get away with.

NATO and Zelenskiy have had their finger on the pulse from the get go, Eastern Ukraine will not be another smash and grab like Crimea was.

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, keithisco said:

I am sorry but, the EU expansion into Ukraine is at the heart of this potential conflict. I have no idea what the EU were thinking but they have chosen to destabilise the entire region without the capability to defend their decision. Ukraine would have been just fine if they rejected EU interference. Bi-lateral Trade deals would have ensured Ukraine independence but no, the muppets at EU HQ thought otherwise

The silence is deafening on that fact, So far it ranks as the 21st century's biggest diplomatic & geopolitical error in judgement.

1 hour ago, NE1 said:

I personally don't think anything will come of this, too costly of an endeavor for both nations in going to war. Russia are flexing their muscles and testing the Biden administration to see what they can get away with.

NATO and Zelenskiy have had their finger on the pulse from the get go, Eastern Ukraine will not be another smash and grab like Crimea was.

Fresh water supplies in Crimea have been hit, to the extent that Fresh drinking water is only available at certain times of the day. Ukraine blocked off or limited flow to the  canal which supplied the water to the region. this at a guess would be a strategic goal for Russia. 

my guess is if Russia were to invade, the goals would be taking three big cities in eastern Ukraine and securing the water supply. a limited invasion with a number of troops but enough fire power and manpower in reserve to back it up if it where to run into difficulties.

Edited April 21, 2021 by stevewinn

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, OverSword said:

How dare the Ukraine want to join the EU when they know damn well that Russia thinks they own them  

Maybe the EU should approach Russia to become a member as well.   That would be an interesting development.

Thats a bit naughty because we know that Ukraine didnt vote to join the EU.

It was 2 minor Ukrainian far-right fringe parties who with EU backing launched and succeeded in a coup. That happened a few years ago now so lets ask where is the Ukrainian referendum on it joining the EU?

Nope, there hasn`t been one.

[Helen of Annoy]

Oh, look, Brexiters... Putin's poodles. 

Spouting Russian agitprop more shameless than ever, like they too can sense their project is ****ed. 

 

[Duke Wellington]

5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Oh, look, Brexiters... Putin's poodles. 

Spouting Russian agitprop more shameless than ever, like they too can sense their project is ****ed. 

 

Russians are a great people too, more than capable of holding their own, and only a fool would rush into a conflict against a power like that.

That isn`t some paranoid plot between Britain and Russia, its a recognition that you dont go in gung-ho against an opponent which will give you a mauling back. I know your sort. If you had your way the world wouldnt have made it out of the Cold War alive. But thankfully we are a lot more sane in the UK.

[NE1]

7 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The silence is deafening on that fact, So far it ranks as the 21st century's biggest diplomatic & geopolitical error in judgement.

Fresh water supplies in Crimea have been hit, to the extent that Fresh drinking water is only available at certain times of the day. Ukraine blocked off or limited flow to the  canal which supplied the water to the region. this at a guess would be a strategic goal for Russia. 

my guess is if Russia were to invade, the goals would be taking three big cities in eastern Ukraine and securing the water supply. a limited invasion with a number of troops but enough fire power and manpower in reserve to back it up if it where to run into difficulties.

Just been looking further into the point you made and found it quite interesting. I had no idea fresh water was becoming an issue in Crimea. I still think, well hope that it’s just sabre rattling and any issues can resolved diplomatically.

 

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Russians are a great people too, more than capable of holding their own, and only a fool would rush into a conflict against a power like that.

The Mongols did pretty well against them.  Think there will be another Sino-Russian face off?

[Helen of Annoy]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

The Mongols did pretty well against them.  Think there will be another Sino-Russian face off?

Cookie will tell you the official Putinesque narrative. 

 

I'd like to sum up what I think: 

If Putin attacks, but not right away. China would wait for body count and sanctions to generate broad dissatisfaction and protest in Russian population and they'd also wait until the conflict starts straining Russian military.

So far, Russia is giving their tanks railroad rides, but it remains to be seen how many of those tanks have working engines. Or crew capable of orientation in a real situation. 

Like Putin's poodles said, Putin needs to secure water for Crimea but it's more important that he needs the state of war to crush the increasingly numerous opposition. If Navalny dies in prison, he becomes immortal icon of resistance to totalitarianism and I'm surprised Putin is not aware he's doing a favour to Navalny by murdering him. That's not a man who plans to get out of his mission alive. His intention is to die to mobilize and bring together the opposition to kleptocracy. 

 

What would get the world rid of Putin are sanctions. Total sanctions that would include actual blockade of oligarch finances - Brexiters depend on that money, they'll never allow it. Hence their propaganda about the EU being dependent on Russian gas. Russian gas is convenient for Europe, but so is Norwegian gas. It's an tiresome but doable temporary switch of suppliers. 

Sanctions would make Putin even more rabid, but the oligarchs wouldn't find that situation acceptable. 

In short, the West - namely the US, since Brexiters already declared the EU the enemy, regardless of NATO - has to invent the way to force Brexiters to switch sides and not sabotage the sanctioning of Russian oligarchy until it stops Putin from trying to lead expansionist war against Ukraine.         

[Helen of Annoy]

5 hours ago, NE1 said:

Just been looking further into the point you made and found it quite interesting. I had no idea fresh water was becoming an issue in Crimea. I still think, well hope that it’s just sabre rattling and any issues can resolved diplomatically.

 

steve, you're talking to yourself again. It's not a good sign. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

12 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Oh, look, Brexiters... Putin's poodles. 

Spouting Russian agitprop more shameless than ever, like they too can sense their project is ****ed. 

 

My dear that is some very funny Chit, Putins Poodles that is a very apt way to describe them oh my god that is so funny!!

[Katzenking]

17 hours ago, OverSword said:

 

Maybe the EU should approach Russia to become a member as well.   That would be an interesting development.

As far as I know they tried a few times to get Russia into the EU and even NATO.
A few years ago Martin Schulz made such a proposal live on German television to a Russian diplomat. I remember that I thought that now he has completely lost his sanity...

Russia rejects this idea what is quite understandable in my view. They want to have their own club. But they should find a way to make this club attractive (₽₽₽).

Then countries like Ukraine, Georgia, and others would probably join.

 

[NE1]

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

steve, you're talking to yourself again. It's not a good sign. 

Are you related to Ted?

[Helen of Annoy]

10 minutes ago, NE1 said:

Are you related to Ted?

Yes I am. Both me and ted belong to the not completely stupid part of the human race.  

You're steve's alter profile. It's obvious. Of course you won't admit that, but it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters, steve, is that I keep proving to you that you are not as smart as you want to believe. 

Your childish tricks may fool the idiots who are already Brexiters, out of their insecurity they're trying to cope with through their bizarre racism. 

While you can never manipulate those who are smarter than you. So you're wasting your time with your little multiple accounts role play. 

 

Also, the connection between Brexit and Putin will never be erased or hidden. It won't go away with time. Quite contrary, it's becoming more obvious and the price of treason will be paid. It always is. 

[NE1]

I’ve only seen a few of the comments you have posted Helen but my goodness the ones I have read are comedy gold. 

No I’m not Steve or any other member on this board attempting to impersonate another human being. The fact of the matter is there looks to be some on here who are detached from reality. 

[Helen of Annoy]

45 minutes ago, NE1 said:

I’ve only seen a few of the comments you have posted Helen but my goodness the ones I have read are comedy gold. 

No I’m not Steve or any other member on this board attempting to impersonate another human being. The fact of the matter is there looks to be some on here who are detached from reality. 

steve, you are not good enough at the game you play. 

You keep using the same phrases typical for you, your syntax is the same, you happen to show up with specific intention to give support and approval to your original profile and you can't shake steve's problem with me off - you would say something back, but you just can't bring yourself to quote or mention me. 

I told you this before - don't be afraid. I won't hurt you. I won't retaliate on you. I don't hate you. I in fact sympathize with your state of being defrauded by an extremely dishonest political option, which in reality is partially an outright foreign, hostile operation.   

Feel free to quote me whenever you wish to talk to me. You can only benefit from my criticism, as I benefit from yours - it makes us reexamine our opinions. 

 

 

Back on topic, there're millions in Ukraine ready to fight to the end in defence of their own home. Are there millions in Russia, ready to die for Putins' personal insecurity issues?  

[NE1]

You lost me on the first three paragraphs but I will say to the fourth I highly doubt the general populace of Russia will want to see their young men off fighting for a portion of Eastern Ukraine regardless of whether the population there are mainly Russian speaking.

[Helen of Annoy]

29 minutes ago, NE1 said:

You lost me on the first three paragraphs but I will say to the fourth I highly doubt the general populace of Russia will want to see their young men off fighting for a portion of Eastern Ukraine regardless of whether the population there are mainly Russian speaking.

That's my opinion too. 

Ukraine is no Syria, Russia would have to use conscripts too, it would be much worse than Afghanistan, so though it would give Putin excuse to declare martial law or whatnot, it would still have the effect exactly the opposite of the wanted one. 

But that's not enough to write off Putin's recent screeching as bluffing only. He did everything to appear as if he's about to attack another country. If he gives up he'll look weak and all that person ever does is desperately trying to project power.

It's probably an attempt to extort some concessions without fight, but on the other hand... he doesn't seem entirely rational anymore. 

[Duke Wellington]

7 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Cookie will tell you the official Putinesque narrative. 

I'd like to sum up what I think: 

If Putin attacks, but not right away. China would wait for body count and sanctions to generate broad dissatisfaction and protest in Russian population and they'd also wait until the conflict starts straining Russian military.

So far, Russia is giving their tanks railroad rides, but it remains to be seen how many of those tanks have working engines. Or crew capable of orientation in a real situation. 

Like Putin's poodles said, Putin needs to secure water for Crimea but it's more important that he needs the state of war to crush the increasingly numerous opposition. If Navalny dies in prison, he becomes immortal icon of resistance to totalitarianism and I'm surprised Putin is not aware he's doing a favour to Navalny by murdering him. That's not a man who plans to get out of his mission alive. His intention is to die to mobilize and bring together the opposition to kleptocracy. 

What would get the world rid of Putin are sanctions. Total sanctions that would include actual blockade of oligarch finances - Brexiters depend on that money, they'll never allow it. Hence their propaganda about the EU being dependent on Russian gas. Russian gas is convenient for Europe, but so is Norwegian gas. It's an tiresome but doable temporary switch of suppliers. 

Sanctions would make Putin even more rabid, but the oligarchs wouldn't find that situation acceptable. 

In short, the West - namely the US, since Brexiters already declared the EU the enemy, regardless of NATO - has to invent the way to force Brexiters to switch sides and not sabotage the sanctioning of Russian oligarchy until it stops Putin from trying to lead expansionist war against Ukraine.         

lol

[Duke Wellington]

There are some bizarre and hilarious views here lol.

Britain and Russia are not allies, they are not even friends. We haven`t been on good terms with them ever since their radioactive poisonings and nerve gas attempts at assassination. Britain has sanctions in place on Russia.

In the bizarre black and white world of some people on here then unless Britain is prepared to fight against Russia and die then they must be all the other way. A poodle. Hilarious lol. How about we are just sat in the middle prepared to support our allies but not if it will get us massacred lol.

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

There are some bizarre and hilarious views here lol.

Britain and Russia are not allies, they are not even friends. We haven`t been on good terms with them ever since their radioactive poisonings and nerve gas attempts at assassination. Britain has sanctions in place on Russia.

In the bizarre black and white world of some people on here then unless Britain is prepared to fight against Russia and die then they must be all the other way. A poodle. Hilarious lol. How about we are just sat in the middle prepared to support our allies but not if it will get us massacred lol.

If this was real life conversation, I'd tell you to go fetch a grenade for your dwarf. Since this is an international forum, I'll limit myself to a sensible chuckle and clarification that it's Brexiters on Putin's remote, not the UK. You betrayed your own country as much as you did betray the EU. It remains to be seen how much damage you can do to NATO.  

[toast]

15 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

But thankfully we are a lot more sane in the UK.

48,1% sane/51,9% insane to be correct here.