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The Origin of the Sumerians


Manwon Lender
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Posted (edited)

The Fertile Crescent and the Birth of Civilization, eh? I take it you have already discounted some theories:

 

Edited by ted hughes
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42 minutes ago, ted hughes said:

The Fertile Crescent and the Birth of Civilization, eh? I take it you have already discounted some theories:

 

Well my friend which Theories are you talking about? 

The discussion I have started concerns the people who made up the Proto-Sumerian culture. You see the Sumerians were not an indigenous people to Mesopotamia. They did not fit the local cultures in many respects,such as Language. Religion, and art. For many years a number of major investigations have been taking place in an attempt to locate where their actual homeland was before they moved to present day Iraq and parts of Iran. The papers I presented give the best explanation I have found so far where they came from, and this is based upon A genetic abnormality along with DNA sequencing. But, I don't know enough about the subject, say anything definitively, because while I have read many studies on the subject I do not consider myself a subject matter expert on this subject in any respect. I started this thread with the hope that others like yourself would join in and as a group based upon the research we can assemble, we can all learn something, at least that is my hope.:)

Peace dude.

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7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

The Origin of Sumerians ——Re-Evaluation Following Remarkable Excavations at Turkmenistan Gonur Tepe and Other Sites

The Origin of Sumerians (scirp.org)

This is not "peer review". It is an open access "journal" which the author has to pay to be published with the goal being to trick gullible people into thinking they are legitimate. A tip off might have been the credential listed under his name is "retired physician". Not exactly the first thing one looks for in a historian/Assyriologist. Another is the fact it is very poorly written on several levels and reads more like a high school term paper.  

Your other 2 links are dead.

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11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

This has been highly debated subject for many years, and finally I found a Peer Reviewed Paper that appears to answer this question. I would like some input from anyone who has some knowledge of this subject or who wishes to discuss this subject further. Since the Sumerians were one of the earliest Civilizations or the oldest Civilization depending upon how you define the word Civilization their original homeland is for me is a very important topic. According to what I read in the Peer reviewed papers and Journals below I believe that their true origin has finally been identified.

I think this *is* a topic worthy of discussion (and a nice change from some of the other material here.)  

I agree with @Thanos5150that the first "paper" isn't a peer-reviewed paper by a scholar.  Cuneiform is not a language; it's a system of symbols for writing and anyone who describes it as a language is not understanding the sources.  I can also quibble with the statement about the Sumerians giving us everything (language, religion, etc.)

Sumerian as an isolate (isolated language) presents an interesting riddle.  Languages become isolated when an area becomes overrun by other cultures and separates part of the original culture from the rest of the world (the Haida language in Alaska is a good example of this)  Alternatively it could be from a large migration event where a group takes over and settles in to one area.

The Wikipedia entry seems to support the second scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer#Origins

I was going to suggest that art styles might be a better indication of the culture than some of the other markers -- and then I looked at a clay sculpture that I was working on and realized I was borrowing from several cultures.  However, that *did* suggest an interesting way of exploring this through armchair research:  finding similar art styles.

We'd have to avoid the "looks like" trap, since materials are a constraint (no rock art is going to look like the Mona Lisa, no matter how skilled the artist, because the materials (fat and charcoal on rough unfinished rock) aren't going to allow for it.  But we could do a little museum research and find out what the oldest art looks like and who had something similar.

Cultures borrow things from other cultures when they work better or are more pleasing.

 

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7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I started this thread with the hope that others like yourself would join in and as a group based upon the research we can assemble, we can all learn something, at least that is my hope

And you did a wonderful thing, Manwon. This stuff is right up my alley. I will enjoy reading the links provided over the next few days and 
I suspect I will be active in here. If I recall, the research I did had the Sumerians with a creation story almost identical to the Book of Genesis. 

So we'll see. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

No.  Too far back and that's not a civilization, no matter what the title says.

It was a civilization, where some tribes began. Gee  Sumerians were not aliens from outer space :)

Edited by docyabut2
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9 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

It was a civilization, where some tribes began. Gee  Sumerians were not aliens from outer space :)

Stop abusing the word civilization. It has a generally agreed on meaning that DOES NOT align with your fantasy. 
 

cormac

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14 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

No.  Too far back and that's not a civilization, no matter what the title says.

One DOES have to wonder what culture/s inhabited the dry Persian Gulf and how it’s related to later cultures. 
 

cormac

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Stop abusing the word civilization. It has a generally agreed on meaning that DOES NOT align with your fantasy. 
 

cormac

kmp would have agreed with me  :)

Stop abusing the word civilization?

Since the Sumerians were one of the earliest Civilizations or the oldest Civilization Manwon Lender

Edited by docyabut2
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7 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

kmp would have agreed with me  :)

 

no, he really would not have.

 

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7 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

kmp would have agreed with me  :)

Stop abusing the word civilization?

Since the Sumerians were one of the earliest Civilizations or the oldest Civilization Manwon Lender

No, he really wouldn’t. 
 

Civilization DOES NOT apply to whatever culture lived in the dry Persian Gulf. 
 

cormac

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I can imagine Sumeria being a trade hub in the beginning, somewhere the nomads came to trade once a year/season and growing up over time with certain individuals deciding not to continue travelling but rather staying to maintain the hub in “down time”. The bigger rhe hub became, the more people stayed the bigger the hub became.

the language issue could conceivably be a “Lingua Franca” for the region, different to but understood by all the roving/nearby tribes. Sort of like Esperanto was meant to be. A language designed for trade that evolved into an isolate because everyone else kept their own tongue when not in town.

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3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

No, he really wouldn’t. 
 

Civilization DOES NOT apply to whatever culture lived in the dry Persian Gulf. 
 

cormac

ya why Civilizations all started in the Persian Gulf.:(

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4 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

ya why Civilizations all started in the Persian Gulf.:(

Civilizations DIDN’T all start around the Persian Gulf. Examples: Egypt, Indus Valley, China

cormac

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Civilizations DIDN’T all start around the Persian Gulf. Examples: Egypt, Indus Valley, China

cormac

well to me the first Civilization ever started in history  was in the Persian Gulf:)

Veiled beneath the Persian Gulf, a once-fertile landmass may have supported some of the earliest humans outside Africa some 75,000 to 100,000 years ago, a new review of research suggests.

 

At its peak, the floodplain now below the Gulf would have been about the size of Great Britain, and then shrank as water began to flood the area. Then, about 8,000 years ago, the land would have been swallowed up by the Indian Ocean, the review scientist said.

-lost-civilization

 

https://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html

 

Edited by docyabut2
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Posted (edited)

Sorry all but its a view to me that started the first Civilization. that announce a first Civilization that one has to start the first Civilizations of earth :)

Edited by docyabut2
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7 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Sorry all but its a view to me that started the first Civilization. that announce a first Civilization that one has to start the first Civilizations of earth :)

Well you’re wrong, whatever culture/cultures lived in the dry Persian Gulf NEVER qualified as a civilization. 
 

cormac

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Well you’re wrong, whatever culture/cultures lived in the dry Persian Gulf NEVER qualified as a civilization. 
 

cormac

sorry cormac , but was the first Civilization of the earth ?

 

The majority of scholars among the early Sumerian civilizations emit, considering that it is the most ancient. The temple of the Sumerians. It is usually called the oldest civilization on Earth from nowhere. Sumer is the oldest civilization in the world, as most scientists believe.

so where did the Sumerians came from ?

Edited by docyabut2
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12 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

sorry cormac , but was the first Civilization of the earth ?

 

The majority of scholars among the early Sumerian civilizations emit, considering that it is the most ancient. The temple of the Sumerians. It is usually called the oldest civilization on Earth from nowhere. Sumer is the oldest civilization in the world, as most scientists believe.

so where did the Sumerians came from ?

I’m not talking about the Sumerians I’m talking about those living in the dry Persian Gulf. I know it’s hard but do try to keep up. 
 

cormac

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