The Origin of the Sumerians

[Hanslune]

22 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

sorry cormac , but was the first Civilization of the earth ?

 

The majority of scholars among the early Sumerian civilizations emit, considering that it is the most ancient. The temple of the Sumerians. It is usually called the oldest civilization on Earth from nowhere. Sumer is the oldest civilization in the world, as most scientists believe.

so where did the Sumerians came from ?

Look up the Ubaid culture or period - that will give you a strong hint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_el-'Oueili

Then note who came and joined them

Edited April 25, 2021 by Hanslune

[Tatetopa]

13 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

There's evidence for farming and domestication and long-distance trade in areas beside the gulf, but not evidence for cities.  Calling it a civilization is "iffy" - if we use those metrics, we have to classify the Inuit and all Native American tribes as separate civilizations.

The dates given, by the way, are about the time that farming and domestication shows  up in the Levant.  So while it's a good question whether or not they're a foundation culture, they're not a civilization.

Just curious, have artifacts come up in fishing nets as I think they  did on the Dogger Banks?  Stone tools, bits of a campfire or bones with evidence of butchering would be  cool.  It is probably a tense region to go exploring with a diving expedition and ROV's.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Can we PLEASE not get into an argument with Docyu?

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Just curious, have artifacts come up in fishing nets as I think they  did on the Dogger Banks?  Stone tools, bits of a campfire or bones with evidence of butchering would be  cool.  It is probably a tense region to go exploring with a diving expedition and ROV's.

Yes, when I worked there I use to go fishing on a regular basis and once 'caught' a looped urn top. I use to walk the beaches and would find interesting bits and pieces at times. Some crude stone tools and later pottery from Magan and Dilmun.

When in worked in Bahrain the mounds were mixed in among the houses near where I lived

Edited April 26, 2021 by Hanslune

[ShadowSot]

3 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

kmp would have agreed with me  

Stop abusing the word civilization?

Since the Sumerians were one of the earliest Civilizations or the oldest Civilization Manwon Lender

Don't you dare invoke the name of a beloved departed member. 

He definitely would not have, as born out by his myria posts. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by ShadowSot

[jaylemurph]

10 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

Don't you dare invoke the name of a beloved departed member. 

He definitely would not have, as born out by his muraid posts. 

She didn't.

She referred to somebody called KMP, which (I believe) is a type of ****ty electronic dance music played on Swedish airlines.

--Jaylemurph

Edited April 26, 2021 by jaylemurph

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Yes, when I worked there I use to go fishing on a regular basis and once 'caught' a looped urn top. I use to walk the beaches and would find interesting bits and pieces at times. Some crude stone tools and later pottery from Magan and Dilmun.

When in worked in Bahrain the mounds were mixed in among the houses near where I lived

Very nice.  Thanks for the photo. Too late on the time line to give Docy much joy though.

[Hanslune]

2 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Very nice.  Thanks for the photo. Too late on the time line to give Docy much joy though.

There were folks in the Persian gulf area when it was river valley it is uncertain where they went too. They had many centuries to move here or there and probably did so.

[Grim Reaper 6]

14 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

This is not "peer review". It is an open access "journal" which the author has to pay to be published with the goal being to trick gullible people into thinking they are legitimate. A tip off might have been the credential listed under his name is "retired physician". Not exactly the first thing one looks for in a historian/Assyriologist. Another is the fact it is very poorly written on several levels and reads more like a high school term paper.  

Your other 2 links are dead.

The creditable list is exactly right for someone who is basing his facts on DNA results from people who were pre-Sumer and for tracking the DNA characteristics back to their original origin before they migrated to Iraq and before the Sumerian Civilization was born. Just like the title of this thread says we are talking about The Origins of the Sumerian People. If you had properly read the OP, and what this thread was designed to discuss you would not have made a fool out of yourself by trying to discredit the paper presented and also trying to discredit me. 

Above you State the Tip Off might have been the credential list, well if you had bothered to read the OP and the paper you would not have made the comments you have. Like I told you in a previous thread intentionally trying to discredit someones intentions or their sources of information before you even understand the topic of the thread is foolish and Ego driven. The only person that is apparently trying to trick anyone here is you, and why you feel the need to do that is beyond me. But, now you should understand the topic of discussion And why a academic who happens to be a Retired Physican and a Diplomate ABEM ( American Board of Emergency Medicine) would write a paper like this and why his contribution is so very important.

Have a nice day.

 

11 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I think this *is* a topic worthy of discussion (and a nice change from some of the other material here.)  

I agree with @Thanos5150that the first "paper" isn't a peer-reviewed paper by a scholar.  Cuneiform is not a language; it's a system of symbols for writing and anyone who describes it as a language is not understanding the sources.  I can also quibble with the statement about the Sumerians giving us everything (language, religion, etc.)

Sumerian as an isolate (isolated language) presents an interesting riddle.  Languages become isolated when an area becomes overrun by other cultures and separates part of the original culture from the rest of the world (the Haida language in Alaska is a good example of this)  Alternatively it could be from a large migration event where a group takes over and settles in to one area.

The Wikipedia entry seems to support the second scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer#Origins

I was going to suggest that art styles might be a better indication of the culture than some of the other markers -- and then I looked at a clay sculpture that I was working on and realized I was borrowing from several cultures.  However, that *did* suggest an interesting way of exploring this through armchair research:  finding similar art styles.

We'd have to avoid the "looks like" trap, since materials are a constraint (no rock art is going to look like the Mona Lisa, no matter how skilled the artist, because the materials (fat and charcoal on rough unfinished rock) aren't going to allow for it.  But we could do a little museum research and find out what the oldest art looks like and who had something similar.

Cultures borrow things from other cultures when they work better or are more pleasing.

 

Thanks for your comments, but I think there is some confusion on the topic. This discussion is based upon the ORGIN of the Sumarians. It has nothing to do with the text that was later developed, its about the original home land that the people who would be later known as the Sumerians came from. The Sumerians did not arise from the local people who inhabited the areas in Iraq and Iran where Surnerian Civilazation would arise. The Proto-Sumerians migrated to those areas from a unknown location that has never been fully explained until now? I have been trying for sometime to find information on this topic and until .I found the paper in question where the Sumerian People came from was only conjecture and had never been studied in the detail it has been here. 

The addition of the cuneiform photo in this thread was not added by me, and I have not even talked about the script or the language in the OP, may comments are sold based upon location the original home land of the people who would build the Sumerian Civilization. The main paper in the OP discuses the art, and the DNA characteristics that identify the people who would become Sumerians. Those people it was found through DNA analysis that those people gas a unique genetic marker that was used to trace their original origins from Sumeria backwards to their original home land. If you read the the paper lacked as The Origins of the Sumerians it become clear that excepted scientific methods were used by the Doctor that wrote the paper. 

If I am not being clear up to this point .I apologize, please read article it can explain my intended thoughts about this discussion. Again disregard the cuneiform tablets and reference to languages made by another poster, what we are discussing is the actual origin of the people before the other items were even invented.

Thanks my friend. 

[Abramelin]

Interesting thread.

Ok, so I started googling, and used the next terms: Sumer - origins - myth, and @cormac mac airt

look what I found:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331178226_THE_SUMERIAN_K8538_TABLET_THE_GREAT_METEOR_IMPACT_DEVASTATING_MESOPOTAMIA_-_A_2019_TRANSLATION_ADDENDUM

Abstract. The paper adds new translation knowledge to our 2014 paper: “The Sumerian K8538 tablet, the great meteor impact devastating Mesopotamia”. We present an improved, detailed fixing of the meteor impact day and impact hour, according to data provided on the tablet. A sky map for Northern Taurids meteor showers shows the comet flight path in the sky. Other useful information is given concerning climatic change, following the meteor impact, the meteor impact aftermath and new details for the relation of the cosmic impact to the Christian Bible, in particularly to Genesis and Apocalypse. The meteor impact occurred at 10:56 am, on September 22, 2193 BC, after the meteor emerged at 5:34 am at dawn and after a flight time of 5 hours 22 minutes. These numbers can clearly be deduced out of observation data entries in the tablet’s pictographic records and in comparison to LOD (length-of-day tables) for the corresponding Mesopotamian latitude. The K8538 tablet is property of the British Museum. Unfortunately, the museum is staunched in its opinion that this tablet represents the Babylonian sky as a so-called “planisphere”.

I hope you've noticed the supposed date of the impact..

I do have serious doubts about it, and I didn't want to rekindle a dead thread about exactly that date. You know which one.

[Grim Reaper 6]

12 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

And you did a wonderful thing, Manwon. This stuff is right up my alley. I will enjoy reading the links provided over the next few days and 
I suspect I will be active in here. If I recall, the research I did had the Sumerians with a creation story almost identical to the Book of Genesis. 

So we'll see. 

Thanks my friend, I appreciate the participation in this thread.

[Grim Reaper 6]

16 hours ago, Harte said:

Second link available as full pdf here: https://www.academia.edu/35912347/Gonur_Depe_Turkmenistan_and_its_Role_in_the_Middle_Asian_Interaction_Sphere

Third link is from Cambridge press - abstract only available here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/microscopy-and-microanalysis/article/abs/xrf-analysis-of-trace-elements-in-lapis-lazuliforming-minerals-for-a-provenance-study/C8349198CA300032991E64E8A6BB6309

Harte

@Kenemet @cormac mac airt @Sir Wearer of Hats @Earl.Of.Trumps@Abramelin @Hanslune @Tatetopa@docyabut2 @ted hughes

Thank you very much for your help, by reposting those links I really appreciate, however, they dont open up into full articles. So here are the original links I posted, I dont know why they stopped working the first time.

µ-XRF Analysis of Trace Elements in Lapis Lazuli-Forming Minerals for a Provenance Study

CUP_MAM_1500015 526..533 (d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net)

APPROPRIATING INNOVATIONS ENTANGLED KNOWLEDGE IN EURASIA, 5000–1500 BCE

Chapter 18. Gonur Depe (Turkmenistan) and its Role in the Middle Asian Interaction Sphere Federica Lume Pereira 

Appropriating Innovations.indb (d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net)

 

21 hours ago, quiXilver said:

I have little to offer this conversation but my interest and my thanks for starting it. 

And a hope that it can be a constructive conversation, not an argument.

 

It's a fascinating topic.

I bet you have as much to offer as I do, I am also here to learn. I believe the topic will be constructive and that the arguing can be prevented, it really all about Ego, and someone just dont have great people skills. So if worst come to worst they can be ignored, but hopefully that isn't necessary. So please jump right in with both feet, and we can both then together my Friend.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Silver]

I wonder why civilization/invention started so slowly. Sumer had agriculture, writing and other stuff about 5-6k years ago, we humans did much the same until the last three hundred years when we suddenly decided to have an Industrial Revolution, and in the last 100 years went from horse-drawn carriages to vehicles on Mars. What caused that exponential development, I often wonder to myself?

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, ted hughes said:

I wonder why civilization/invention started so slowly. Sumer had agriculture, writing and other stuff about 5-6k years ago, we humans did much the same until the last three hundred years when we suddenly decided to have an Industrial Revolution, and in the last 100 years went from horse-drawn carriages to vehicles on Mars. What caused that exponential development, I often wonder to myself?

My friend dont forget this thread is about the pre-sumer, and where their true homeland was. none of the above had been invented yet. the trail we are looking for is from point A Home to point B Iraq and the creation of the Sumerian Civilization, if you haven't read the article in the OP you want to if you have the time my friend. 

[Silver]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

My friend dont forget this thread is about the pre-sumer, and where their true homeland was. none of the above had been invented yet. the trail we are looking for is from point A Home to point B Iraq and the creation of the Sumerian Civilization, if you haven't read the article in the OP you want to if you have the time my friend. 

I'm having a slow day today. This is what Wikipedia says about pre-Sumerian: These prehistoric people before the Sumerians are now called "proto-Euphrateans" or "Ubaidians",^[29] and are theorized to have evolved from the Samarra culture of northern Mesopotamia.^{[30][31][32][33]} The Ubaidians, though never mentioned by the Sumerians themselves, are assumed by modern-day scholars to have been the first civilizing force in Sumer. They drained the marshes for agriculture, developed trade, and established industries, including weaving, leatherwork, metalwork, masonry, and pottery.^[29]

Why is it important (the subject is new to me)?

 

[rashore]

All righty folks, putting in a friendly reminder to not discuss each other or egos, and just discuss the topic. 

[Kenemet]

9 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for your comments, but I think there is some confusion on the topic. This discussion is based upon the ORGIN of the Sumarians.

....which was exactly what I was discussing.

Quote

It has nothing to do with the text that was later developed, its about the original home land that the people who would be later known as the Sumerians came from.

Yes, and the comments about linguistic isolates was exactly about that issue.

Quote

The Sumerians did not arise from the local people who inhabited the areas in Iraq and Iran where Surnerian Civilazation would arise. The Proto-Sumerians migrated to those areas from a unknown location that has never been fully explained until now?

Again, this is what the linguistics isolate and the suggestion that better clues are from art and specifically might trace a migration history addresses.  That's why I took that approach. Genetics would only give a broad picture of movements, but art styles and use of material could refine that more.

The "under the sea" bit was less plausible because that area filled in slowly... so people would have simply moved their settlements away from the rising waters.  While some older villages might be down there, the oldest sequence would be from those moving into the area from Africa and then the ones back along the shorelines (as they moved up from flooding valleys.

In other words, Bob and his family arrive from Africa.  Bob's son Bobby moves into the big river valley.  Bob's grandson Bobby-Bob finds that the land Bobby owns is getting flooded and Bobby-Bob takes his family north away from there.  In the end, we've got Bob living on one side of the rift, Bobby's abandoned farm underwater, and Bobby-Bob and his family living on the other side of the water.

So the origins of the Sumerians isn't "under the water" but it is from Africa.

Now, it might be that in the "under the water area" that there's a huge trading center and that's where the main markers of the culture developed.  However, that doesn't explain the odd and unrelated language (not talking about cuneiform, here, but the actual language.)

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Kenemet

[cormac mac airt]

54 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

....which was exactly what I was discussing.

Yes, and the comments about linguistic isolates was exactly about that issue.

Again, this is what the linguistics isolate and the suggestion that better clues are from art and specifically might trace a migration history addresses.  That's why I took that approach. Genetics would only give a broad picture of movements, but art styles and use of material could refine that more.

The "under the sea" bit was less plausible because that area filled in slowly... so people would have simply moved their settlements away from the rising waters.  While some older villages might be down there, the oldest sequence would be from those moving into the area from Africa and then the ones back along the shorelines (as they moved up from flooding valleys.

In other words, Bob and his family arrive from Africa.  Bob's son Bobby moves into the big river valley.  Bob's grandson Bobby-Bob finds that the land Bobby owns is getting flooded and Bobby-Bob takes his family north away from there.  In the end, we've got Bob living on one side of the rift, Bobby's abandoned farm underwater, and Bobby-Bob and his family living on the other side of the water.

So the origins of the Sumerians isn't "under the water" but it is from Africa.

Now, it might be that in the "under the water area" that there's a huge trading center and that's where the main markers of the culture developed.  However, that doesn't explain the odd and unrelated language (not talking about cuneiform, here, but the actual language.)

Possibly not as broad as one might think. Marsh Arabs have been considered as possible descendants of the Sumerians and MA have been genetically tested. 
 

Quote

 

The analyses carried out on the mtDNA and Y chromosome of the Iraqi Marsh Arabs, a population living in the Tigris-Euphrates marshlands, have shown: (i) a prevalent autochthonous Middle Eastern component both in male and female gene pools; (ii) weak South-West Asian and African heritages, more evident for mtDNA; (iii) a higher male than female homogeneity, mainly determined by the co-occurrence of socio-cultural and genetic factors; (iv) a genetic stratification not only ascribable to recent events. The last point is well illustrated by Y-chromosome data where the less represented J1-M267* lineage indicates Northern Mesopotamia contributions, whereas the most frequent J1-Page08 branch reveals a local recent expansion about 4,000 years ago (Table 2). Although the Y-chromosome age estimates deserve caution, particularly when samples are small and standard errors large, it is interesting to note that these estimates overlap the City State period which characterised Southern Mesopotamia, and is testified to by numerous ancient Sumerian cities (Lagash, Ur, Uruk, Eridu and Larsa).

In conclusion, our data show that the modern Marsh Arabs of Iraq harbour mtDNAs and Y chromosomes that are predominantly of Middle Eastern origin. Therefore, certain cultural features of the area such as water buffalo breeding and rice farming, which were most likely introduced from the Indian sub-continent, only marginally affected the gene pool of the autochthonous people of the region. Moreover, a Middle Eastern ancestral origin of the modern population of the marshes of southern Iraq implies that, if the Marsh Arabs are descendants of the ancient Sumerians, also Sumerians were not of Indian or Southern Asian ancestry.

 

https://bmcecolevol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-11-288

cormac

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Interesting thread.

Ok, so I started googling, and used the next terms: Sumer - origins - myth, and @cormac mac airt

look what I found:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331178226_THE_SUMERIAN_K8538_TABLET_THE_GREAT_METEOR_IMPACT_DEVASTATING_MESOPOTAMIA_-_A_2019_TRANSLATION_ADDENDUM

Abstract. The paper adds new translation knowledge to our 2014 paper: “The Sumerian K8538 tablet, the great meteor impact devastating Mesopotamia”. We present an improved, detailed fixing of the meteor impact day and impact hour, according to data provided on the tablet. A sky map for Northern Taurids meteor showers shows the comet flight path in the sky. Other useful information is given concerning climatic change, following the meteor impact, the meteor impact aftermath and new details for the relation of the cosmic impact to the Christian Bible, in particularly to Genesis and Apocalypse. The meteor impact occurred at 10:56 am, on September 22, 2193 BC, after the meteor emerged at 5:34 am at dawn and after a flight time of 5 hours 22 minutes. These numbers can clearly be deduced out of observation data entries in the tablet’s pictographic records and in comparison to LOD (length-of-day tables) for the corresponding Mesopotamian latitude. The K8538 tablet is property of the British Museum. Unfortunately, the museum is staunched in its opinion that this tablet represents the Babylonian sky as a so-called “planisphere”.

I hope you've noticed the supposed date of the impact..

I do have serious doubts about it, and I didn't want to rekindle a dead thread about exactly that date. You know which one.

Yes, this is about the Umm-al-Binni impact crater.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_al_Binni_lake

And the guys in my former post have calculated the date of the impact: it's the 22nd of september, 2193 bce.

Either they must have read the Oera Linda Book, or they never even heard of that book.

What do you think, Cormac?

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

30 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yes, this is about the Umm-al-Binni impact crater.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_al_Binni_lake

And the guys in my former post have calculated the date of the impact: it's the 22nd of september, 2193 bce.

Either they must have read the Oera Linda Book, or they never even heard of that book.

What do you think, Cormac?

I think the Impact Crater theory is dead at this point.

Quote

Abstract

The Umm Al-Binni Lake is one of the well-known lakes within the Ahwar of southern Mesopotamia in Iraq. It is located about 45 km north of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The Umm Al-Binni Lake has been postulated as a-meteorite-impact crater, particularly by geo-archeologists, based on indices such as shape, size, depth, and the presence of a perceived lake-rim structure. However, no unambiguous evidence of such an impact has been put forward to date though. The lake measures 3.4 km in diameter, and it has a polygonal shape, with a maximum depth of 3 m. The age of the alleged crater was estimated to be less than 5000 years (or earlier than 3000 BC), based on the reported deposition rates of the Tigris–Euphrates delta sediments as a result of the Holocene sea-level changes of the Arabian Gulf during that time around the Umm Al-Binni Lake area. In the current study, using geophysical data and remote-sensing techniques investigates the origin of the Umm Al-Binni Lake. The results of magnetic and gravity analyses showed that the Ahwar area of southern Mesopotamia, including the Umm Al-Binni Lake, was subjected to the differential subsidence of the basement faulted blocks, as the distribution of the lakes is mostly controlled by such basement tectonic zones of weakness. Satellite imagery also showed some evidence of anthropogenic activity that contributed to the shaping of the southern sector of the Lake rim, which locally displays an angular shape. None of the latter evidence could support any meteorite-impact origin for the Umm Al-Binni Lake.

Also from Figure 1: 

Quote

Fig. 1

From: The geological origin of the Umm Al-Binni Lake within the Ahwar of Southern Mesopotamia, Iraq

 

(Left) Location map of Umm Al-Binni Lake, (Right) Google Earth image of Umm Al-Binni Lake. (Bottom) Longitudinal Zones Map of Iraq (After Jassim and Goff 2006). Note the linear features on the Google Earth image, primarily along NW-SE and less abundant NE-SW trends, which may indicate tectonic basement-lineaments impressions at the lake shores within the lake environs and compare them with lineaments in the map. Also, note many other smaller geomorphological depressions, which are very common phenomena in the Mesopotamian Plain

cormac

Edited April 26, 2021 by cormac mac airt

[Abramelin]

Ok, so we agree it's not about the supposed crater at the Umm Al-Binni site.

But then their calculations about the date of some impact still remain.

 

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 hours ago, ted hughes said:

I wonder why civilization/invention started so slowly. Sumer had agriculture, writing and other stuff about 5-6k years ago, we humans did much the same until the last three hundred years when we suddenly decided to have an Industrial Revolution, and in the last 100 years went from horse-drawn carriages to vehicles on Mars. What caused that exponential development, I often wonder to myself?

I’d argue it was because we are a fundamentally conservatively minded species. “If it works, why change it?” that sort of thinking. 
Changes only happened because of outside driving forces. I mean, rhe Greeks had steam engines, or at least the technology and know-how needed to create steam engines but didn’t because what they had worked for them. 
The IR only happened because plague had decimated work forces, so someone needed to come up with a solution to keep things moving along, not to improve things but to bring things back to a previously accepted level. 
Why did we go to the moon? p***ing contest between the superpowers, not a desire to explains human knowledge. 
Why do we not still have Concorde? Too expensive to fix the problems and to maintain the planes, stick with what we had. 
Why do we still use coal fired power stations? Because “it’s reliable” and there’s a lot of money in the mining industry, therefore a lot of influence with those in power. 
Last time I had my heart checked, the GP stuck a wee little device on my finger, got my pulse, blood oxygen level, blood pressure etc. I asked him, knowing that my grandfather had been wired up to a huge bloody machine to do the same job in his retirement home why they didn’t use those same smaller things in retirement homes, his response was “they’re used to using those machines”. It’s not as if a GP in a low socio-economic area has more money than a retirement home in an affluent suburb.  

[cormac mac airt]

25 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, so we agree it's not about the supposed crater at the Umm Al-Binni site.

But then their calculations about the date of some impact still remain.

 

 

But then a date without an impactor is rather meaningless. It’s a solution looking for a problem. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

But then a date without an impactor is rather meaningless. It’s a solution looking for a problem. 
 

cormac

I assume they calculated the date of some impact, based on their interpretation of the Sumerian tablet, and then looked for some impact 'in the neighbourhood'.

If it's not Umm al-Binni, then it must be another one.

No doubt, if he had been still alive, Alewyn would have come up with the Burckle Crater.

 

 

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I assume they calculated the date of some impact, based on their interpretation of the Sumerian tablet, and then looked for some impact 'in the neighbourhood'.

If it's not Umm al-Binni, then it must be another one.

No doubt, if he had been still alive, Alewyn would have come up with the Burckle Crater.

I think it more likely someone was trying to force-fit an otherwise unevidenced impactor into their narrative. 
 

cormac