The Origin of the Sumerians

[Abramelin]

Manwon, for questions about linguistics, you better ask Jaylemurph. As far as I know he's the only linguist of UM.

Edit:

Your handle is an anagram, right?

Just curious.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Abramelin

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Manwon, for questions about linguistics, you better ask Jaylemurph. As far as I know he's the only linguist of UM.

Edit:

Your handle is an anagram, right?

Just curious.

 

Thanks, for the reply. My username is based upon the Korean monetary system. The Korean system is expressed in thousands, so 1 dollar equals approximately 1000 Won depending upon the exchange rate. The paper money in Korea starts at 1000 Won or Chun-won, next is 5000 Won or Ochun-Won next is 10,000 Won or Man-won and last is is 50,000 won or Oman-won. 

Did you think my username was Manwon or Man - Women, if so you would not be the first to assume that!!

So basically I am not worth very much!

Take Care my friend 

 

[Harte]

I note that when I needed a loan, you - a purported lender - offered me nothing.

Harte

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Harte

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 4/25/2021 at 7:09 PM, Kenemet said:

There's evidence for farming and domestication and long-distance trade in areas beside the gulf, but not evidence for cities.  Calling it a civilization is "iffy" - if we use those metrics, we have to classify the Inuit and all Native American tribes as separate civilizations.

The dates given, by the way, are about the time that farming and domestication shows  up in the Levant.  So while it's a good question whether or not they're a foundation culture, they're not a civilization.

 

Just to be sure here, Kenemet, 

are you saying the Sumerians did not establish a civilization??   Heresy! 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 4/25/2021 at 7:52 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Can we PLEASE not get into an argument with Docyu?

 

Fine. We'll just pick on you instead.  

[Grim Reaper 6]

37 minutes ago, Harte said:

I note that when I needed a loan, you - a purported lender - offered me nothing.

Harte

 

Oh my are you ok!! 

How much do you need? 

I can loan you eejoh - ohsib - pahl - chun won if you need it my friend!!

 

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Fine. We'll just pick on you instead.  

Don't pick on Doucy that completely wrong!

[jmccr8]

17 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I agree with you completely but if you do not have a good working knowledge of a subject, like I dont here its difficult to separate what is good from bad. So the easiest thing for me to do is post what I think is good and let other agree of break it down.

Thanks take care

Hi Manwon

It was through members here like

Sesh, Cormac, Harte, Swede, Jay, Hanslune as well as some others that I learned how to do a proper search and look into personal histories of authors and references to see if they are credible. These members hold my respects as I had found this place by accident when I got my first computer and they taught me how to use it so I could learn to learn both the computer and about the subjects that these people inspired me to be more curious about things I did not know existed.

jmccr8

Edited April 29, 2021 by jmccr8
the usual

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

It was through members here like

Sesh, Cormac, Harte, Swede, Jay, Hanslune as well as some others that I learned how to do a proper search and look into personal histories of authors and references to see if they are credible. These members hold my respects as I had found this place by accident when I got my first computer and they taught me how to use it so I could learn to learn both the computer and about the subjects that these people inspired me to be more curious about things I did not know existed.

jmccr8

That's wonderful and I also give them all the respect in the world because they took you under their wing and taught you. However, I bought my first computer in 1984 it was made by Company Called Wang and it had a MS-DOS Operating System 2.0. In those days there were no Icons, you were required to type in command prompts to take you to the different features up loaded to the hard drive. It was a lot of fun, but if you had no experience with computer operating systems of the time it could be very Frustrating.

So I took my first computer class to learn how to properly use the system. I also took a computer programming class to learn how to use a Microsoft Computer Language that was called MS-Basic, I also took MS Quick Basic, and ended up learning a few other computer languages that were being used at the time. MS-Basic was a simple program to use, but what made it  great was that it allowed you were to make your own computer programs. Then you could store them on a Floppy Disk. In those days a Floppy Disk Drive was the only method used to save data or programs you were working on. 

Doing a proper search for me isn't difficult at all, nor is checking some ones academic credentials. In fact I still access to a Government data base where I can check a great deal more.  The issue is having enough knowledge about a specific subject, and what is excepted as the current theories or facts based upon that subject. To gain that knowledge you can just start reading about the subject and kind of educate yourself, but even then you can't be 100% certain that you are reading the currently excepted subject matter. That's were threads like this come in handy, brain storming as a group is always better than alone.

 Especially  when other members of the group are knowledgeable about the subject being discussed. So even though I do research the authors credentials it is still very easy to supply information that may not be acceptable to the entire group.

For instance, here is a question for you is Sumer, considered a culture or a civilization? If you answer the question please supply a linked source.

Thanks for you post, I hope to hear the reply to the question.

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, Harte said:

I note that when I needed a loan, you - a purported lender - offered me nothing.

Harte

 

I need a favor my friend, especially since I am loaning you some Won! But, seriously what defines a Civilization from a Culture? This is a very complicated subject, if you search academic sites you will find many many different answers. If just search online, it's even worst. If you have discussed before may you could give this Old Country Boy the bennifit of your knowledge.

Thanks 

10,000 Won!

[Grim Reaper 6]

6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Just to be sure here, Kenemet, 

are you saying the Sumerians did not establish a civilization??   Heresy! 

While this may seem surprising it is not a cut and dry question, it's actually a little more complicated than it would seem to be. If If you research it on academic sites you will get a number of different answers, and if you just research it online it becomes even more difficult. 

Like in the link below:

What is the difference between a a culture and a Civilization: Two hundred Fifty Years of Confusion.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1850&=&context=ccr&=&sei-redir=1&referer=https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fhl%3Den%26as_sdt%3D0%252C5%26q%3Dwhat%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bdifference%2Bbetween%2Ba%2Bcivilization%2Band%2Ba%2Bculture%26btnG%3D#search="what difference between civilization culture"

Civilization and Culture

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.940.9285&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Culture and civilization: functional and methodological aspects

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/236643951.pdf

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Thanks, @Manwon Lender, sure am glad the experts all agree.

"The First Civilization on Earth: Sumerians from Ancient Mesopotamia" -  Human Origin Project - Link

[Grim Reaper 6]

49 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Thanks, @Manwon Lender, sure am glad the experts all agree.

"The First Civilization on Earth: Sumerians from Ancient Mesopotamia" -  Human Origin Project - Link

I have read that also, but, I am uncertain if that is a theory or if it has actually been agreed upon. There is no much conjecture about what actually constitutes a Civilization. Not saying your wrong, but I am certainly unsure!

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

8 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Fine. We'll just pick on you instead.  

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

 

sí señor 

[Abramelin]

On 4/28/2021 at 7:02 PM, Abramelin said:

Manwon, for questions about linguistics, you better ask Jaylemurph. As far as I know he's the only linguist of UM.

 

You will have to lure him out of his den. Start talking about dogs, preferably basset hounds.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Abramelin

[Harte]

16 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I need a favor my friend, especially since I am loaning you some Won! But, seriously what defines a Civilization from a Culture? This is a very complicated subject, if you search academic sites you will find many many different answers. If just search online, it's even worst. If you have discussed before may you could give this Old Country Boy the bennifit of your knowledge.

Thanks 

10,000 Won!

There's no checklist. It's a combination of things that has more to do with the way the culture is organized than anything else.

You have to have permanent cities. You have to produce a constant supply of food year round so agriculture of some sort is necessary. You have to have some sort of societal structure that includes division of labor, free time, specialization, an economic system, administrative functions, etc.

Personally, I think a writing system would be required, but it's not to some professionals.Seems it would be hard to do the above without being able to write.

Harte

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, Harte said:

There's no checklist. It's a combination of things that has more to do with the way the culture is organized than anything else.

You have to have permanent cities. You have to produce a constant supply of food year round so agriculture of some sort is necessary. You have to have some sort of societal structure that includes division of labor, free time, specialization, an economic system, administrative functions, etc.

Personally, I think a writing system would be required, but it's not to some professionals.Seems it would be hard to do the above without being able to write.

Harte

Yes as I researched the topic addressed by academics it became very clear that there is no standardization for what constitutes a civilization. Now, this confused me which is normal because I am frequently confused . However, what I did find interesting is that no where in the arguments was the subject of a written form of language being a prerequisite of what constitutes a civilization. All the other prerequisites you described above were included, and many others, such as the fact that many view cultures as part of a civilization and also as a  separate entity. 

Like you I can't conceive that any culture could be viewed as a civilization unless they had the ability to record their Administrative functions and to maintain historical records. Below is my theory of what a civilization must have to be classified as such. But let me say in advance the numerical order I use below has nothing to do with where they may fall into the picture. Because I am not qualified to make such a determination, but I feel that I am qualified to offer a theory based upon what I have discovered while researching the topic.

1) Social structure that is organized into the following: 

  a. Forms if training that teaches skills to specialize in specific forms of labor.

  b. Divisions of said labor.

  c. Defined set of rules and laws that reinforce the norms of the society.

  d. Functional economic and financial system that keeps the society functioning. ( basic needs a functional form of mathematics and written language )

  e. Administrative functions that oversee the social order is maintained.

     e1. A record keeping system that allows the governing body to keep tract of all of the above ( Written Language )

2) Agriculture which supplies a reliable and permanent food source for the population.

3) Perminent Capital city with cities that fall under the government seat which all contribute to the welfare of the entire society.

4. A method to mark time such as a calendar.

5. Military force designed to protect the autonomy of the state from outside interests.

i am certain that everyone will not agree with my comments here. I am also certain that there are more things that should be added to my list above. However, like I said, I have no qualifications concerning this topic my comments above are based upon factors I feel are necessary. Hopefully others will respond and refine my ideas.

Harte thank you for your response, I am great full for your help. Please review my ideas above and give me your assement and add of subtract what you think is necessary or unnecessary.

This also go out to anyone who would like respond to this post. Please share your ideas and critique mine.

 

[Nobu]

Wonderful topic 

[jmccr8]

On 4/28/2021 at 11:23 PM, Manwon Lender said:

For instance, here is a question for you is Sumer, considered a culture or a civilization? If you answer the question please supply a linked source.

Hi Manwon

As a civilization, the links are from educational sources just to show that there are credible online learning centers.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ancient-art-civilizations/ancient-near-east1/sumerian/a/the-sumerians-and-mesopotamia

The ancient Sumerians, the "black-headed ones," lived in the southern part of what is now Iraq. The heartland of Sumer lay between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, in what the Greeks later called Mesopotamia. This territory, once skillfully irrigated, proved very fertile, and major cities had long been in existence before the period when archaeologists can identify the Sumerian people themselves.

The Sumerians were characteristically inventive, and are likely to have been responsible for the development of the first writing. Well before 3000 B.C.E. Sumerians were recording their language using simple pictures. They wrote on tablets of clay, later evolving the script that to us is known as cuneiform, or "wedge-shaped."

 

Silver lyre from Ur, southern Iraq, c. 2600-2400 B.C.E., 106 x 97 cm

This lyre was found in the “Great Death-Pit,” one of the graves in the Royal Cemetery at Ur accompanied by seventy-four bodies—six men and sixty-eight women—laid down in rows on the floor of the pit. Three lyres were piled one on top of another. They were all made from wood which had decayed by the time they were excavated, but two of them, of which this is one, were entirely covered in sheet silver attached by small silver nails. The plaques down the front of the sounding box are made of shell. The silver cow's head decorating the front has inlaid eyes of shell and lapis lazuli. The edges of the sound box have a narrow border of shell and lapis lazuli inlay. When found, the lyre lay in the soil. The metal was very brittle and the uprights were squashed flat. First it was photographed, and then covered in wax and waxed cloth to hold it together for lifting. The silver on the top and back edge of the sounding box had been destroyed. Some of the silver preserved the impression of matting on which it must have originally lain. Eleven silver tubes acted as the tuning pegs. Such instruments were probably important parts of rituals at court and temple. There are representations of lyre players and their instruments on cylinder seals, and on the Standard of Ur being played alongside a possible singer.

Silver lyre from Ur, c. 2600-2400 B.C.E., 106 x 97 cm, silver, shell, and lapis lazuli are original, the wood is reconstructed, southern Iraq 
© Trustees of the British Museum. This lyre was found in the “Great Death-Pit,” one of the graves in the Royal Cemetery at Ur accompanied by seventy-four bodies—six men and sixty-eight women—laid down in rows on the floor of the pit. Three lyres were piled one on top of another.

They were energetic farmers, traders and sailors. Their religion recognized many gods, whose feats and escapades were described in stories that were often preserved for generations. Rituals as well as parties were enlivened by skillful harpists and singers, and Sumerian musical instruments have even been excavated by modern archaeologists.

Book-keeping was a feature of Sumerian life, and very detailed records on clay tablets of offerings, rations, taxes and agricultural work have come down to us. Their favorite board game achieved popularity throughout the whole Middle Eastern world. Imported lapis lazuli and carnelian was much prized for inlays and jewelry.

Archaeology has shown that in about 2500 B.C.E. the ruling elite in the city of Ur went to their final resting place surrounded by their wealth and the attendant bodies of their court personnel.

...................

if you look at the left side of the page you can scroll down the menu for other lessons

 

https://www.sps186.org/downloads/basic/584622/ch1_3.pdf

Civilization 3 CASE STUDY: Ur in Sumer SETTING THE STAGE Agriculture marked a dramatic change in how people lived together. They began dwelling in larger, more organized communities, such as farming villages and towns. From some of these settlements, cities gradually emerged, forming the backdrop of a more complex way of life—civilization. Villages Grow into Cities Over the centuries, people settled in stable communities that were based on agriculture. Domesticated animals became more common. The invention of new tools—hoes, sickles, and plow sticks—made the task of farming easier. As people gradually developed the technology to control their natural environment, they reaped larger harvests. Settlements with a plentiful supply of food could support larger populations. As the population of some early farming villages increased, social relationships became more complicated. The change from a nomadic hunting-gathering way of life to settled village life took a long time. Likewise, the change from village life to city life was a gradual process that spanned several generations. Economic Changes To cultivate more land and to produce extra crops, ancient people in larger villages built elaborate irrigation systems. The resulting food surpluses freed some villagers to pursue other jobs and to develop skills besides farming. Individuals who learned to become craftspeople created valuable new products, such as pottery, metal objects, and woven cloth. In turn, people who became traders profited from a broader range of goods to exchange—craftwork, grains, and many raw materials. Two important inventions—the wheel and the sail—also enabled traders to move more goods over longer distances. Social Changes A more complex and prosperous economy affected the social structure of village life. For example, building and operating large irrigation systems required the labor of many people. As other special groups of workers formed, social classes with varying wealth, power, and influence began to emerge. A system of social classes would become more clearly defined as cities grew. Religion also became more organized. During the Old Stone Age, prehistoric people’s religious beliefs centered around nature, animal spirits, and some idea of an afterlife. During the New Stone Age, farming peoples worshiped the many gods and goddesses who they believed had power over the rain, wind, and other forces of

 

jmccr8

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

@jmccr8 Thanks very much for the information I do appreciate it. However, the question was is Sumer considered a culture or a civilization. I am very aware that there are many credible sources of information out there. However, I have been unable to first establish the exact criteria that defines a civilization and two is Sumer is actually considered a civilization. I have Reviewed around 20 plus academic papers on various sites, and to date the Academic Community still is not in agreement is Sumer is a culture or a civilization. 

In reality I believe it is myself, my belief is based upon the fact that a culture can not be considered a civilization unless they can record historical information. I mean how can a culture rule multiple cities and mange their populations without a form of written communication. But, what is suprising to me is the fact that none of the academic papers I have reviewed do not even mention that in their criteria. If you come across something that breaks this all down please post it, it would be greatly appreciated.

[jmccr8]

44 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

In reality I believe it is myself, my belief is based upon the fact that a culture can not be considered a civilization unless they can record historical information. I mean how can a culture rule multiple cities and mange their populations without a form of written communication. But, what is suprising to me is the fact that none of the academic papers I have reviewed do not even mention that in their criteria. If you come across something that breaks this all down please post it, it would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Manwon

I don't know if these links will help but will post them as they deal with what is culture and what is civilization.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1850&context=ccr

Introduction The distinction between culture and civilization is not well embedded in the English language, but has remained relatively meaningful in other European and in nonEuropean languages which adopted these concepts from French and German scholars. In the English-speaking world, a century-old confusing play of name switching and revisions has made the distinction between culture and civilization difficult. The fogginess of the distinction has been reinforced when powerful streams of Englishspeaking anthropologists suggested that both concepts are identical. “Culture” (from Latin cultura) is the older term and corresponds to the Latin form also in its content; the term civilization (from Latin civis) was coined later, in 18th Century France and later also in England. However, German scholars preferred culture, with its complex of meanings. One can draw a more or less distinctive line between civilization and culture by stating that the former refers more to material, technical, economic, and 1 Botz-Bornstein: What is the Difference Between Culture and Civilization?: Two Hun Published by BYU ScholarsArchive, 2012 Comparative Civilizations Review 11 social facts while the latter refers to spiritual, intellectual and artistic phenomena. The German usage of Zivilisation has always alluded to a utilitarian, outer aspect of human existence subordinated to Kultur, which was perceived as the “real” essence of humans, society, and their achievements. Unfortunately, things are not always that simple because there are cases where the two notions are not clearly distinguished. For example, both culture and civilization can be applied for analyses of religions. Another example is one of the most famous critiques of civilization, Freud’s Unbehagen in der Kultur, which uses the word culture, although Freud clearly means civilization. Consequently, the book has been translated into English and into French as Civilization and its Discontents.

https://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sumer.htm

The Sumerian civilization emerged upon the flood plain of the lower reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers about 4000 B.C. The social structure of the Sumerians was decidedly different from other societies of that and later times. The Sumerian communities were city states organized around a temple and ruled by a priesthood. The bulk of the people of the community were considered to be the servant-slaves of the god of the temple. The insecurities of life justified the role of the priesthood. When calamities occured despite the best efforts of the priesthood this was explained as being the result of the actions of other gods acting in concert which over-ruled the wishes of the local god.

There was a class of craftsmen in addition to the priests and peasants. The craftmen devoted most of their time to producing things for either the temples or the warrior-soldiers which protected the temple community. The people were to devote their lives to propitiating the gods to prevent calamities from befalling the community.

The political structure of Sumer was independent city-states. The map shows the important communities. Note that in Sumerian times the Persian Gulf extended to the area of the city-states. Since then the rivers have filled in hundreds miles of Gulf and Ur which was once almost on the coast is hundreds of miles from the sea. Along with the map of Sumer there is a schematic depiction of the layout of the city of Ur with a branch of the Euphrates River running through the city with a protected harbor at the city walls. There was another protected harbor at the city walls. The temple grounds were separated from the rest of the city.

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-middle-east/sumer#:~:text=Sumer was an ancient civilization,as modern humans understand it.

I am hesitant about using this link but have read it and it makes no outlandish claims and does give an overview of the civilization as well as the culture.

Sumer was an ancient civilization founded in the Mesopotamia region of the Fertile Crescent situated between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Known for their innovations in language, governance, architecture and more, Sumerians are considered the creators of civilization as modern humans understand it. Their control of the region lasted for short of 2,000 years before the Babylonians took charge in 2004 B.C.

jmccr8

[Grim Reaper 6]

55 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

I don't know if these links will help but will post them as they deal with what is culture and what is civilization.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1850&context=ccr

Introduction The distinction between culture and civilization is not well embedded in the English language, but has remained relatively meaningful in other European and in nonEuropean languages which adopted these concepts from French and German scholars. In the English-speaking world, a century-old confusing play of name switching and revisions has made the distinction between culture and civilization difficult. The fogginess of the distinction has been reinforced when powerful streams of Englishspeaking anthropologists suggested that both concepts are identical. “Culture” (from Latin cultura) is the older term and corresponds to the Latin form also in its content; the term civilization (from Latin civis) was coined later, in 18th Century France and later also in England. However, German scholars preferred culture, with its complex of meanings. One can draw a more or less distinctive line between civilization and culture by stating that the former refers more to material, technical, economic, and 1 Botz-Bornstein: What is the Difference Between Culture and Civilization?: Two Hun Published by BYU ScholarsArchive, 2012 Comparative Civilizations Review 11 social facts while the latter refers to spiritual, intellectual and artistic phenomena. The German usage of Zivilisation has always alluded to a utilitarian, outer aspect of human existence subordinated to Kultur, which was perceived as the “real” essence of humans, society, and their achievements. Unfortunately, things are not always that simple because there are cases where the two notions are not clearly distinguished. For example, both culture and civilization can be applied for analyses of religions. Another example is one of the most famous critiques of civilization, Freud’s Unbehagen in der Kultur, which uses the word culture, although Freud clearly means civilization. Consequently, the book has been translated into English and into French as Civilization and its Discontents.

https://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sumer.htm

The Sumerian civilization emerged upon the flood plain of the lower reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers about 4000 B.C. The social structure of the Sumerians was decidedly different from other societies of that and later times. The Sumerian communities were city states organized around a temple and ruled by a priesthood. The bulk of the people of the community were considered to be the servant-slaves of the god of the temple. The insecurities of life justified the role of the priesthood. When calamities occured despite the best efforts of the priesthood this was explained as being the result of the actions of other gods acting in concert which over-ruled the wishes of the local god.

There was a class of craftsmen in addition to the priests and peasants. The craftmen devoted most of their time to producing things for either the temples or the warrior-soldiers which protected the temple community. The people were to devote their lives to propitiating the gods to prevent calamities from befalling the community.

The political structure of Sumer was independent city-states. The map shows the important communities. Note that in Sumerian times the Persian Gulf extended to the area of the city-states. Since then the rivers have filled in hundreds miles of Gulf and Ur which was once almost on the coast is hundreds of miles from the sea. Along with the map of Sumer there is a schematic depiction of the layout of the city of Ur with a branch of the Euphrates River running through the city with a protected harbor at the city walls. There was another protected harbor at the city walls. The temple grounds were separated from the rest of the city.

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-middle-east/sumer#:~:text=Sumer was an ancient civilization,as modern humans understand it.

I am hesitant about using this link but have read it and it makes no outlandish claims and does give an overview of the civilization as well as the culture.

Sumer was an ancient civilization founded in the Mesopotamia region of the Fertile Crescent situated between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Known for their innovations in language, governance, architecture and more, Sumerians are considered the creators of civilization as modern humans understand it. Their control of the region lasted for short of 2,000 years before the Babylonians took charge in 2004 B.C.

jmccr8

Thank you very much, I will go through them and see if I have already read them. Either way though, I appreciate help.

Have a great day.

[Harte]

10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

As a civilization, the links are from educational sources just to show that there are credible online learning centers.

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ancient-art-civilizations/ancient-near-east1/sumerian/a/the-sumerians-and-mesopotamia

The ancient Sumerians, the "black-headed ones," lived in the southern part of what is now Iraq.

Just wanted to chime in here with another nugget.

I've seen the above reference of the "Black Headed People" disputed with a reasonable argument.

The standard belief is that the Sumerians referred to themselves as that, but the dispute says that the use is an exclamatory statement referring to the Akkadians.

"I have become the king of the black-headed people" (paraphrasing the quote here - don't want to look it up) thus becomes a comment on a society that has changed.

This concept and the interpretation when you read about it is further muddied by the fact that the term "Sumerian" is sometimes used as a catch-all for any ancient Mesopotamian civilization that used the Sumerian language, which extends all the way up through the Babylonians, for crying out loud.

Harte

[Thanos5150]

1 hour ago, Harte said:

I've seen the above reference of the "Black Headed People" disputed with a reasonable argument.

The standard belief is that the Sumerians referred to themselves as that, but the dispute says that the use is an exclamatory statement referring to the Akkadians.

The problem is that the Akkadians, and others, also referred to the Sumerians as the "Black Headed People", derived from the Sumerian word SAG.GI.GA, in Akkadian ṣalmat-qaqqadi, making it perfectly clear they were not one and the same.