The Origin of the Sumerians

[jaylemurph]

20 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Jesus, I should have my mouth knitted closed.

Maybe not proper Angry Saxon, but i hope you all get what I'm at.

 

I’m betting Angry Saxon is an autocorrect error, but if it isn’t, then Abe will have to be our friendly, local cousin Angry Frisian!

—Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I’m betting Angry Saxon is an autocorrect error, but if it isn’t, then Abe will have to be our friendly, local cousin Angry Frisian!

—Jaylemurph

According to some, the Angrivares were a Germanic tribe. The first part of the tribe's name, "Angri" is very probably etymologically related to "Angli" .

That's why I love to address the English as "Angri Saxons", or better, "Angry Saxons".

 

[jaylemurph]

27 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

According to some, the Angrivares were a Germanic tribe. The first part of the tribe's name, "Angri" is very probably etymologically related to "Angli" .

That's why I love to address the English as "Angri Saxons", or better, "Angry Saxons".

 

That’s awesome!

—Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

That’s awesome!

—Jaylemurph

[jaylemurph]

42 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

According to some, the Angrivares were a Germanic tribe. The first part of the tribe's name, "Angri" is very probably etymologically related to "Angli" .

That's why I love to address the English as "Angri Saxons", or better, "Angry Saxons".

 

If I remember my Pokorny PIE reconstructions rightly (and I may not) — the PIE root Angl(n) means more or less what it does in English (a bending or an angle), but in the Germanic languages, it tends to mean “meadow”. I’m betting that would be the related meaning here. 

Although it can also mean something like fishhook — the Angles first enter the historical record as pirates in Armorica and the Angrivarii were along the Weser (I think), so maybe it’s a link from their shared water-going activities?

I’ve been researching Germanic boats and sailing and had no idea they were such competent sea folk — Pytheas of Marsalia/Marseilles knew of their expertise in the third/fourth century BCE* and Caesar in the first. It’s a weird intersection of discussion here and my work. 

—Jaylemurph 

*Well, seems to have done. His work now only exists in quoted fragments (chiefly in Strabo, Hipparchus and Pliny). 

Edited June 12, 2021 by jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

Well, another way of etymologically explain the name of both the Anglii and Angrivarii is by the name of their god or one of their gods: Ingli, or something.

And we have Tacitus' mentioning of the (sp?) Ingvaeones.

But I think we are going a bit off topic.

 

Edited to add:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngvi

Edited June 12, 2021 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

 

double post

Edited June 12, 2021 by Abramelin

[seasmith]

On 6/10/2021 at 4:02 PM, Manwon Lender said:

If you go to Google Scholar and type in the search information it will also open up, that's where both links came from.

 

 

>>>

 

Hello again Manwon,

     I read a wad of Kramer back in the college days, and he was a brilliant researcher,  but a lot of tablets have been 'transliterated' since then; so have delved back further into the earliest myths of Sumer (An, Anzu, Adapa, Gilgamesh, etc),
Ubaid and some Indus stuff (because they all were trading amongst each other for who knows how long) and just hope I'm not interrupting a critical page 7 exegesis of biographical and political import.  ;>)

It will take a little while to condense time spent into a coherent post or two, but that is the intent,

Also have to wade back thru the previous 6 pages of this interesting thread to see if there is any relevance to my trivial comments.

All the Best,

s

[Grim Reaper 6]

18 minutes ago, seasmith said:

 

 

>>>

 

Hello again Manwon,

     I read a wad of Kramer back in the college days, and he was a brilliant researcher,  but a lot of tablets have been 'transliterated' since then; so have delved back further into the earliest myths of Sumer (An, Anzu, Adapa, Gilgamesh, etc),
Ubaid and some Indus stuff (because they all were trading amongst each other for who knows how long) and just hope I'm not interrupting a critical page 7 exegesis of biographical and political import.  ;>)

It will take a little while to condense time spent into a coherent post or two, but that is the intent,

Also have to wade back thru the previous 6 pages of this interesting thread to see if there is any relevance to my trivial comments.

All the Best,

s

Thanks for your reply, I look forward to your response

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

If I remember my Pokorny PIE reconstructions rightly (and I may not) — the PIE root Angl(n) means more or less what it does in English (a bending or an angle), but in the Germanic languages, it tends to mean “meadow”. I’m betting that would be the related meaning here. 

Although it can also mean something like fishhook — the Angles first enter the historical record as pirates in Armorica and the Angrivarii were along the Weser (I think), so maybe it’s a link from their shared water-going activities?

I’ve been researching Germanic boats and sailing and had no idea they were such competent sea folk — Pytheas of Marsalia/Marseilles knew of their expertise in the third/fourth century BCE* and Caesar in the first. It’s a weird intersection of discussion here and my work. 

—Jaylemurph 

*Well, seems to have done. His work now only exists in quoted fragments (chiefly in Strabo, Hipparchus and Pliny). 

Maybe you are interested in what this website has to say about Germanic boats and sailing (and raiding) :

https://frisiacoasttrail.blog/2020/10/29/it-all-began-with-piracy/

Who needs an OLB, eh?

 

Edit:

Sorry for going off topic again.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Abramelin

[Grim Reaper 6]

38 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe you are interested in what this website has to say about Germanic boats and sailing (and raiding) :

https://frisiacoasttrail.blog/2020/10/29/it-all-began-with-piracy/

Who needs an OLB, eh?

 

Edit:

Sorry for going off topic again.

Thanks that's a great link, and some interesting information.

[fred_mc]

7 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

If I remember my Pokorny PIE reconstructions rightly (and I may not) — the PIE root Angl(n) means more or less what it does in English (a bending or an angle), but in the Germanic languages, it tends to mean “meadow”. I’m betting that would be the related meaning here.

...

Interesting, in Swedish "meadow" is "äng".

[Abramelin]

9 hours ago, fred_mc said:

Interesting, in Swedish "meadow" is "äng".

That's because Swedish belongs to the group of North Germanic languages.

[Abramelin]

On 6/10/2021 at 12:18 AM, Manwon Lender said:

Hey partner, here is a interesting paper that is 17 pages long, which attempt to make some interesting connections . 

Pre-Sumerian Substratum : https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/33286061/1359726.pdf?1395534908=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DOn_the_Alleged_Pre_Sumerian_

Sumerian Mythology: https://sebastiansiverand.com/media/pages/metamechanics/the-well/3660012250-1586389587/sumerian-mythology.pdf

Manwon, I get "access denied" with the first link, and I don't read anything specific pointing to the mythological origin of the Sumerians in the second link.

Maybe you can quote the 'juicy bits'?

[Harte]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Manwon, I get "access denied" with the first link, and I don't read anything specific pointing to the mythological origin of the Sumerians in the second link.

Maybe you can quote the 'juicy bits'?

The second link is to a pdf of a short work by Samuel Noah Cramer. The pdf lacks the pics referred to in the text. The entire work can be read here - plates and all.

https://archive.org/details/sumerianmytholog00kram

To read it, you have to join. It's free. Once you join, click the "borrow" button to unlock the entire text (for an hour.)

Harte

[Grim Reaper 6]

10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Manwon, I get "access denied" with the first link, and I don't read anything specific pointing to the mythological origin of the Sumerians in the second link.

Maybe you can quote the 'juicy bits'?

Here are some additional links that discuss what is known as the Sumerian Problem as it is addressed in many papers. This title refers to where the Sumerians as an Ethnic Group may have originally migrated from. To date this problem hasn't been solved, although there are many theories on this subject. I am very sorry for all the problems I have caused by posting links that can not be accessed, hopefully by going to the link below all links will accessible.

If there problems opening up these links they can be opened directly at the site where I down loaded them: https://scholar.google.com/

Physical Anthropology and the "Sumerian Problem": http://antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

Joseph Halevy, Racial Scholarship and the "Sumerian Problem": https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/54494367/Anor_2017-_Halevy_PHEN_002_03-04_321-345-Anor.pdf?1505993823

A New Aspect of the Sumerian Question: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/527651.pdf

 

 

 

[seasmith]

2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Here are some additional links that discuss what is known as the Sumerian Problem as it is addressed in many papers. This title refers to where the Sumerians as an Ethnic Group may have originally migrated from. To date this problem hasn't been solved, although there are many theories on this subject. I am very sorry for all the problems I have caused by posting links that can not be accessed, hopefully by going to the link below all links will accessible.

If there problems opening up these links they can be opened directly at the site where I down loaded them: https://scholar.google.com/

Physical Anthropology and the "Sumerian Problem": http://antropologia.uw.edu.pl/SHA/sha-04-07.pdf

Joseph Halevy, Racial Scholarship and the "Sumerian Problem": https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/54494367/Anor_2017-_Halevy_PHEN_002_03-04_321-345-Anor.pdf?1505993823

A New Aspect of the Sumerian Question: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/527651.pdf

 

>>>

 

 

http://www.warefamilyhistory.com/uploads/3/4/9/5/34957521/sarmatian-scythia_1_orig.png

 

Is "Physical Anthropology" i.e. racial/ethnic makeup the central question of the OP ? Look at the maps above, particularly centering on the ancient Iberia Isthmus, between the Black and Caspian Seas. That whole area of Central Asia has forever been a giant crossroads connecting the Eurasian Steppes, Mesopotamia, South Asia. Arabia, Anatolia, Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean and the Meditterranian Sea. Over the millennia, many tribes and early ethnic groups have migrated, traded and mixed their genes thereabouts. Of course it's going to be a melting pot of ethnicities.

The more interesting question is what made Sumaria the birthplace of cities, written language and sciences such as astronomy ? And, in anthropological time, almost over night.

So we look at their 'deities' for clues. The Sky god AN reigned supreme. Their wisdom was delivered, after "kingship was lowered from heaven" and, the myths say, " after the deluge",  by the Seven Sages / Apkallu / the 'fish-men'. 
That is when the scribes began to write history, and we can say Civilization began in Sumer.

 

Before then  in that region of the world there  were any number of peoples, survivors of what ever catastrophe coincided with the end of the ice age, who were multiplying, mixing and gradually upgrading their living standards. Trade between Ubaidian settlements (see Tell Zeidan/Raqqa_{) and most the areas shown on the above maps, from from Lake Van to Dilmun and beyond} ,
and is attested by stone and metal artifacts uncovered,,
 

They  (Ubaids) did progress over time to more centralized and hierarchical societies,  (as did the folks who lived in Tell Catalhoyuk), but they did Not have cities, kings, reading and writing.

Their deities were depicted as Tall-Headed beings, not the long-headed or round-headed peoples the 19th century anthropologists were debating in your linked article. No, they had lizard or bird-like heads and odd physiques:

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-ubaid-lizardmen-figurines-reptilians-in-ancient-sumer

 

According to the Epic of Gilgamesh, the proto half-god hero, the gods had headquarters high in the "Cedar Mountains" (which are arguably mis-placed by convention in the mountains of Lebanon, a long haul from Uruk. The ancient, now nearly gone cedar forests on the southern shores of the Black and Caspian Seas, would have been a better, down-river route to transport the cedar logs, but that's incidental to the point). 

In other words the source of the Sumerian civilization is likely Ancient Aratta, imho. 
 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by seasmith
words

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, seasmith said:

 

>>>

 

 

http://www.warefamilyhistory.com/uploads/3/4/9/5/34957521/sarmatian-scythia_1_orig.png

 

Is "Physical Anthropology" i.e. racial/ethnic makeup the central question of the OP ? Look at the maps above, particularly centering on the ancient "Iberia Peninsula" between the Black and Caspian Seas. That whole area of Central Asia has forever been a giant crossroads connecting the Eurasian Steppes, Mesopotamia, South Asia. Arabia, Anatolia, Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean and the Meditterranian Sea. Over the millennia, many tribes and early ethnic groups have migrated, traded and mixed their genes thereabouts. Of course it's going to be a melting pot of ethnicities.

The more interesting question is what made Sumaria the birthplace of cities, written language and sciences such as astronomy ? And, in anthropological time, almost over night.

So we look at their 'deities' for clues. The Sky god AN reigned supreme. Their wisdom was delivered, After "kingship was lowered from heaven" and the myths say, " after the deluge",  by the Seven Sages / Apkallu / the 'fish-men'. 
That is when the scribes began to write history, and we can say Civilization began in Sumer.

 

Before then  in that region of the world there  were any number of peoples, survivors of what ever catastrophe coincided with the end of the ice age, who were multiplying, mixing and gradually upgrading their living standards. Trade between Ubaidian settlements (see Tell Zeidan/Raqqa_{) and most the areas shown on the above maps, from from Lake Van to Dilmun and beyond} ,
and is attested by stone and metal artifacts uncovered,,
 

They did progress over time to more centralized and hierarchical societies,  (as did the folks who lived in Tell Catalhoyuk), but they did Not have cities, kings, reading and writing.

Their deities were depicted as Tall-Headed beings, not the long-headed or round-headed peoples the 19th century anthropologists were debating in your linked article. No, they had lizard or bird-like heads and odd physiques:

https://www.gaia.com/article/the-ubaid-lizardmen-figurines-reptilians-in-ancient-sumer

 

According to the Epic of Gilgamesh. they had headquarters in the "Cedar Mountains" (which are arguably mis-placed by convention in the mountains of Lebanon, a long haul from Uruk. The ancient, now nearly gone cedar forests on the southern shores of the Back and Caspian Seas, would have been a better, down-river route to transport the cedar logs, but that's incidental to the point). 
In other words the source of the Sumerian civilization is likely Ancient Aratta, imho. 
 

 

 

 

You make some very interesting points, but to this day their original homeland  has never been identified. We know they were not indigenous people to the area, we know they migrated to that area and approximately when they arrived, but that's where their pre-history ends. When I started this thread what I had in mind was their Orgin. The reason this is important at least to me is to see if any of their future accomplishments would have been hinted at in their past. The entire subject of who they were and where they came from will also complete our knowledge of their history. To date we know a great deal about how effected the world with their accomplishments in developing the Written Word, Mathematics, the development of the Wheel, the Developoment of the Plow, built Levees, and canals. 

So actually their origin leave a very large hole in the historical account of these people. While it is a mystery I also believe it's a matter of time to discover this.

Take care

[seasmith]

2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

You make some very interesting points, but to this day their original homeland  has never been identified. We know they were not indigenous people to the area, we know they migrated to that area and approximately when they arrived, but that's where their pre-history ends. When I started this thread what I had in mind was their Orgin. The reason this is important at least to me is to see if any of their future accomplishments would have been hinted at in their past. The entire subject of who they were and where they came from will also complete our knowledge of their history. To date we know a great deal about how effected the world with their accomplishments in developing the Written Word, Mathematics, the development of the Wheel, the Developoment of the Plow, built Levees, and canals. 

So actually their origin leave a very large hole in the historical account of these people. While it is a mystery I also believe it's a matter of time to discover this.

Take care

 

So you don't think their Knowledge came from an "elder culture" (to use Andrew Collins'apolitical term)  imaged  by them as their gods and sages:
 who came from the mountains and by sea ?
 What's the point of their creation myths then, pure imagination ??

Are you one who just likes an endless debate ?
∫∫:>)

[Grim Reaper 6]

30 minutes ago, seasmith said:

 

So you don't think their Knowledge came from an "elder culture" (to use Andrew Collins'apolitical term)  imaged  by them as their gods and sages:
 who came from the mountains and by sea ?
 What's the point of their creation myths then, pure imagination ??

Are you one who just likes an endless debate ?
∫∫:>)

I don't want a debate at all, I would like to see the mystery solved. On subjects like this where our leading Achaeologists and Paleontologist have not discovered the Sumerian Origin a debate on the subject here is a useless endeavor that can only be fueled by opinions. No, I certainly don't believe their knowledge came from Elder Race, is that wht you believe?

If you do believe that what Elder Race do you believe they came from?

However, looking at a subject like this based upon Scientific theory does not require endless debate. 

[Hanslune]

8 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I don't want a debate at all, I would like to see the mystery solved. On subjects like this where our leading Achaeologists and Paleontologist have not discovered the Sumerian Origin a debate on the subject here is a useless endeavor that can only be fueled by opinions. No, I certainly don't believe their knowledge came from Elder Race, is that wht you believe?

If you do believe that what Elder Race do you believe they came from?

However, looking at a subject like this based upon Scientific theory does not require endless debate. 

...IF there 'knowledge' came from the 'Elder race', where did THEY get it from and where are they? This just passes the question on and doesn't answer it.

If you like you can take this to absurd levels - insisting everything we know came from somewhere/one else and ends 2.6 million or more years in the past with a fine gal or fellow picking up a rock and using it for something.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Hanslune

[seasmith]

56 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

...IF there 'knowledge' came from the 'Elder race', where did THEY get it from and where are they? This just passes the question on and doesn't answer it.

If you like you can take this to absurd levels - insisting everything we know came from somewhere/one else and ends 2.6 million or more years in the past with a fine gal or fellow picking up a rock and using it for something.

>>>

 

No, I don't think Sumerians got their knowledge from Collin's "Elder Culture". (Not every thing is about "race").
I think a certain group of people experienced an evolutionary leap in cognitive ability. That which is called in the literature "abstract thinking". 
That is the faculty used in higher math, writing, and other forms of invention as listed by Manwon.
That ability spread to other cultures partly genetically and partly by learning, just like it does in birds and other animals.
But that is just another opinion among many, in an endless debate.

I'm also of the opinion that to ignore the creation myths of the people being studied is just silly.

 

Trial and error with rocks and sticks is not the same as abstract calculation.

Edited June 14, 2021 by seasmith

[jmccr8]

30 minutes ago, seasmith said:

I'm also of the opinion that to ignore the creation myths of the people being studied is just silly.

For the most part the myths are not ignored but new age it was reptilian aliens is disingenuous

[Hanslune]

1 minute ago, closed for business said:

For the most part the myths are not ignored but new age it was reptilian aliens is disingenuous

Some myths may have some basis but others are so bizarre or impossible that they can be discounted as religious imagery.

Shinto creation myth

Quote

In the beginning, when the universe was created from the pre-existing chaos a number of kami ('gods' in this context) appeared spontaneously. Their relationships gave rise to a brother and sister; Izanagi and Izanami. Izanagi means 'he who invites' and Izanami means 'she who invites'.

Izanagi and Izanami thrust a jewelled spear into the ocean, and the first land formed where the spear touched the water. This was the central island of Japan.

...for some reason I don't think Japan was formed by a spear dripping water...that's just me of course.

[jmccr8]

56 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Some myths may have some basis but others are so bizarre or impossible that they can be discounted as religious imagery.

Shinto creation myth

...for some reason I don't think Japan was formed by a spear dripping water...that's just me of course.

Of course that is true but what seasmith linked to was about reptilian aliens and not standard mythology