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The Origin of the Sumerians


Manwon Lender
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Posted (edited)

During my tours in Iraq I had the awesome opportunity to visit the Great Ziggurat of Ur. One of the more remarkable places I had the chance to visit. 

Edited by Trelane
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11 hours ago, Trelane said:

During my tours in Iraq I had the awesome opportunity to visit the Great Ziggurat of Ur. One of the more remarkable places I had the chance to visit. 

Yeah, one reason I worked in the ME was to get to places like that (Ur, Eridu, Ninevah and Bablyon were on the list plus about ten others). i got to all the countries except Yemen and thanks to that #$@#% Saddam Iraq.

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15 hours ago, Trelane said:

During my tours in Iraq I had the awesome opportunity to visit the Great Ziggurat of Ur. One of the more remarkable places I had the chance to visit. 

That's two of us, what year did you get to see it?

I was with the 24th Infantry Divisions jump during desert storm and we stopped around 20 Km from Basra. After the Cease Fire I had a little free time, so I grabbed a driver along with a few of my soldiers and we went to Ur. The entire place was abandoned their was no one there, so we took advantage of the situation and made up our own little tour. We stayed for 3 hours, but it was absolutely the best time of my life, because nothing was off limits to us.:) Archeology has always been a subject near and dear to my heart, so no matter where I have been stationed during my military career and my time as a contractor I took advantage of the situation and saw as much as I could.

Great post, brings back some very fond memories, take care my friend.

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4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Yeah, one reason I worked in the ME was to get to places like that (Ur, Eridu, Ninevah and Bablyon were on the list plus about ten others). i got to all the countries except Yemen and thanks to that #$@#% Saddam Iraq.

While I was active duty before I retired I was part of a UN Peace keeping force in the early 1980s between Egypt Israel, then I served in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and the liberation of Kuwait. Then I was in Somalia in 1993 and last I was sent as part of the invasion of Afghanistan in 2002. Then off and on I worked as a US Contractor working with the  United Nations Command along with the Hague's "Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons" (OPCW). I spent most of my time in Syria, however, during the 10 years I worked in that position all my time was spent in the Middle East, I finally retired in 2019.

Were you also a contractor or like me did you retire from the US Military and then work as a contractor?

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7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

That's two of us, what year did you get to see it?

I was with the 24th Infantry Divisions jump during desert storm and we stopped around 20 Km from Basra. After the Cease Fire I had a little free time, so I grabbed a driver along with a few of my soldiers and we went to Ur. The entire place was abandoned their was no one there, so we took advantage of the situation and made up our own little tour. We stayed for 3 hours, but it was absolutely the best time of my life, because nothing was off limits to us.:) Archeology has always been a subject near and dear to my heart, so no matter where I have been stationed during my military career and my time as a contractor I took advantage of the situation and saw as much as I could.

Great post, brings back some very fond memories, take care my friend.

I visited the site during my 2nd tour in Iraq in 2009. We were tasked to conduct detainee transfer missions from Camp Adder there at Nasiriyah back to Camp Bucca in Basra. We were also out there for about 3 hours then decided to head back to get inside the wire. I'm sure if there were any AQI or Hezbollah guys hiding they probably thought we're were a trap. No way only two trucks of Americans are out wandering about on their own:lol:

Same for me. I've always been interested in archaeology and ancient civilizations. Luckily with the great contributors to this site I've learned so much more than the college classes I've taken.

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7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

While I was active duty before I retired I was part of a UN Peace keeping force in the early 1980s between Egypt Israel, then I served in Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and the liberation of Kuwait. Then I was in Somalia in 1993 and last I was sent as part of the invasion of Afghanistan in 2002. Then off and on I worked as a US Contractor working with the  United Nations Command along with the Hague's "Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons" (OPCW). I spent most of my time in Syria, however, during the 10 years I worked in that position all my time was spent in the Middle East, I finally retired in 2019.

Were you also a contractor or like me did you retire from the US Military and then work as a contractor?

I did ten years active then when the USSR collapsed was moved to the reserves, retired in 1997. Visited when I could the ME from 1983 to 1990, I did love the army's 30 days of leave a year. Then went full time after that influenced by marrying A British born Irish Teacher I met in Dubai who specialized in teaching foreigners English. Given it was her profession to live in the ME I did too. Lived in Saudi, UAE and Bahrain.I did some civilian work with the UAE military in training their artillery but mainly as a day job I set up colleges and vocational high schools. Organize them, opened them and train the local staff, and would then stay a few years as a department head or lecturer then move on. I worked mainly for the Jubail Industrial College, Higher College's of Technology, IAT and Bahrain Polytechnic and a few others in Oman, Kuwait and elsewhere too. Off duty I traveled around and shovel bummed a bit here and there, mainly doing tourism and some digging too, most ground survey work in Cyprus.I got in a great deal of action at Danish sites dealing with the Dilmun. My mother was Danish so I could speak that a bit.

Oh, yes I also worked with a female officer who commanded the the US contingent in Sinai in the early 80's.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Trelane said:

I visited the site during my 2nd tour in Iraq in 2009. We were tasked to conduct detainee transfer missions from Camp Adder there at Nasiriyah back to Camp Bucca in Basra. We were also out there for about 3 hours then decided to head back to get inside the wire. I'm sure if there were any AQI or Hezbollah guys hiding they probably thought we're were a trap. No way only two trucks of Americans are out wandering about on their own:lol:

Same for me. I've always been interested in archaeology and ancient civilizations. Luckily with the great contributors to this site I've learned so much more than the college classes I've taken.

When I was at Ur, there wasn't any threat from the Republican Guard, the cease fire had been signed and all hostilities were over. But, like you my love of history is what drew me there. When we reached our final jump point during the ground invasion, the Divison Chaplain was having a prayer session for the soldiers. Before he finished he mentioned the biblical significance of the area and he mention the city of Ur. Until that point I had not even thought about, so I went and pulled some maps and found out how close we were. That's when I decided to grab some like minded soldiers and take a trip to the city. Man it was certainly worth it, and it's the only fond memory I have of that dam War.

Take Care. 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I did ten years active then when the USSR collapsed was moved to the reserves, retired in 1997. Visited when I could the ME from 1983 to 1990, I did love the army's 30 days of leave a year. Then went full time after that influenced by marrying A British born Irish Teacher I met in Dubai who specialized in teaching foreigners English. Given it was her profession to live in the ME I did too. Lived in Saudi, UAE and Bahrain.I did some civilian work with the UAE military in training their artillery but mainly as a day job I set up colleges and vocational high schools. Organize them, opened them and train the local staff, and would then stay a few years as a department head or lecturer then move on. I worked mainly for the Jubail Industrial College, Higher College's of Technology, IAT and Bahrain Polytechnic and a few others in Oman, Kuwait and elsewhere too. Off duty I traveled around and shovel bummed a bit here and there, mainly doing tourism and some digging too, most ground survey work in Cyprus.I got in a great deal of action at Danish sites dealing with the Dilmun. My mother was Danish so I could speak that a bit.

Oh, yes I also worked with a female officer who commanded the the US contingent in Sinai in the early 80's.

It sounds like you had a very full and wonderful life, It is funny how our paths lead us, through life. I married a South Korean exchange student who going to college in Savannah, Georgia while I was Stationed at Ft. Stewart, Ga. that is why we are currently living in South Korea. Like you I  speak a few languages, I was born in St. Louis, Mo to German Immigrant parents, my mother and father immigrated from Flensburg, Germany in the early 1950s, he had worked for the US Government after WWII, and he was given a US Visa so that he could continue his work in the US.

So, even though I born in the US,  German was my first language, and my mother made sure that I was able to speak it fluently along with reading and writing. At the same time I was also learning English so, I was completely bilingual by 5 years old. I joined the US Army in 1978 and spent 23 years on active duty retiring in 2003. After, I married my wife and while I was working on my degrees in Biology and Chemistry I started taking Korean language classes at the college was I was attending.

I took Korean 101, and Korean 102, the cases were not that difficult and I say that because I have alway had the ability to learn new languages. Now, I am 80% fluent in speaking, reading and writing Hangul, but I have never taken the time to learn Hanja which is a written text using Chinese Charactors. Today it's only used on official documents and during legal proceedings so it isn't practical to learn it. I also speak both Arabic and Kurdish, however, my abilities are passable only, I used the Kurdish a great deal when I was working in the Middle East as a contractor, because the Kurdish factions provided security and acted as translators. I must say they are a wonderful people, who have been treated terribly by the US, it makes me angery.

My MOS in the US Army was Technical Escort, which is part of the Chemical Branch. Because of this when I retired I had no problem going to work as a contractor, I was hired as a Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Subject Matter Expert, and that is why I was working with the United Nations and the OPCW fact finding missions across the Middle East and especially in Syria. Throughout the Syrian Civil War they have used everything from Non-persistence Nerve Agents, to H-series blister agents and Chlorine as a Choking Agent.

Assad is a war criminal and hopeful his regime will fall, if that even happens The Hague will try him for crimes against humanity. The other fact finding missions I was involved with across the Middle East were mainly investigations. Anywhere the US or our Allies located marked munitions or Lab facilities teams were sent to investigate and determine what actions needed to be taken, which kept me and my team very busy. The officer you worked with that commanded the Contigent in the Sinai in the 1980s, what was her rank and name? I may have worked for her, I don't know. Like I said in my previous post I was there as part of the UN Peace Keeping Mission, it was only a 6 month rotation.

Well, like I said you have certainly had a full and wonderful life, it's funny after living like we have when I return back to the United States I have to learn to fit in all over again. I have spent so much time outside the country that, it takes an adjustment period before I really feel at home again. My wife and I still own a home and some property in Lakewood, Washington on the Puget Sound. We may return and live out our lives there, or we may stay here either way it's never boring.:tu:

Take Care my friend. 

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On 4/28/2021 at 5:50 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Just to be sure here, Kenemet, 

are you saying the Sumerians did not establish a civilization??  :blink: Heresy! 

Nope.  But the Sumerians-before-the-Sumerians weren't a civilization.

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30 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Nope.  But the Sumerians-before-the-Sumerians weren't a civilization.

 

Oh, got ya. thanks for that correction. the pre-Sumerians in eastern Turkmenistan were not a civilization but the Sumerians of SE Iraq (??) were. Sounds cool.

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2 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Oh, got ya. thanks for that correction. the pre-Sumerians in eastern Turkmenistan were not a civilization but the Sumerians of SE Iraq (??) were. Sounds cool.

It seems the theory is that the interaction of Ubaidian and Sumerian cultures caused a synergy that led to the creation of our first civilization

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

It seems the theory is that the interaction of Ubaidian and Sumerian cultures caused a synergy that led to the creation of our first civilization

Thanks Hanslune, so I guess I should book up on the Ubaidian society. I know they give a lot of credit to the formation of the civilization to the Sumerians. 

Things like Gilgamesh - "Most historians generally agree Gilgamesh was a historical king of the Sumerian city-state of Uruk, who probably ruled sometime during the early part of the Early Dynastic Period (c. 2900 – 2350 BC)."

But also the texts that are of the creation that are so very similar to the first book of Bible, the Book of Genesis. Interesting stuff!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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3 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

Oh, got ya. thanks for that correction. the pre-Sumerians in eastern Turkmenistan were not a civilization but the Sumerians of SE Iraq (??) were. Sounds cool.

Except that the claim of Sumerian origins starting in Turkmenistan IS NOT the concensus by any means to anthropologists and other scientific groups. There is more evidence to suggest a possible, perhaps even likely, origin amongst the Samarra Culture. 

cormac

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6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Nope.  But the Sumerians-before-the-Sumerians weren't a civilization.

They were not a unified state, though some argue more so a series of ideologically regionally linked chiefdoms, some argue not, but regardless deemed at least a dominant "material culture" if not a cohesive civic one. But when their progressive cultural, civic, and material culture are taken as a whole, while technically not a "civilization" perhaps, they were by far the closest thing to it which from them fuled by the arrival of the Sumerians in short order civilization as we know it rapidly appears. Eridu, for example, one of the many Sumerian cities founded by the Ubaid, covered an area of at least 20 acres with a population of more than 4,000 people. Uruk and Ur during the Ubaid Period were not far behind. Urbanization began with the Ubaid, as did monumental architecture (including the use of palace façade architecture and mud brick not to mention stepped platforms and multi story buildings), large public works, surplus agriculture, temples (including with their corners oriented towards the cardinal points) and local centralized governance, the use of tokens and seals with imagery which given their context appear to be largely administrative in function, cemeteries, large trade and settlement networks spanning over 1,000 miles, planned architecture and perhaps even a standardized unit of measure, etc, etc.

Not related per se' and something I posted before, but I think relevant when considering the possibility of the breadth of ancient societies leading up the arrival of the Sumerians: 

A particularly interesting Cucuteni–Trypillian mega-site is Nebelivka which around 4,000BC had a population of as much as 15,000-17,000 people including more than 1200 structures. One discovered in 2006 is a massive two story "temple" nearly 200ft long and 70ft wide.
trypillia-temple.jpg
Reconstruction:
Temple_of_Nebelivka%2C_Ukraine._reconstruction%2C_c_4000_B.C..jpg

6,000-Year-Old Temple Unearthed in Ukraine

Architectural differentiation on a Trypillia mega-site:preliminary report on the excavation of a mega-structure at Nebelivka, Ukraine

The planning of the earliest European proto-towns: a new geophysical plan of the Trypillia mega-site of Nebelivka, Kirovograd Domain, Ukraine

cucuteni_trypillian_extent.png

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Not related per se' and something I posted before, but I think relevant when considering the possibility of the breadth of ancient societies leading up the arrival of the Sumerians: 

A particularly interesting Cucuteni–Trypillian mega-site is Nebelivka which around 4,000BC had a population of as much as 15,000-17,000 people including more than 1200 structures. One discovered in 2006 is a massive two story "temple" nearly 200ft long and 70ft wide.
trypillia-temple.jpg
Reconstruction:
Temple_of_Nebelivka%2C_Ukraine._reconstruction%2C_c_4000_B.C..jpg

6,000-Year-Old Temple Unearthed in Ukraine

Architectural differentiation on a Trypillia mega-site:preliminary report on the excavation of a mega-structure at Nebelivka, Ukraine

The planning of the earliest European proto-towns: a new geophysical plan of the Trypillia mega-site of Nebelivka, Kirovograd Domain, Ukraine

cucuteni_trypillian_extent.png

 

En Esur: Ancient Megalopolis Uncovered in Israel c. 3000-5000BC

More.

En Esur:
19386322-7543517-image-a-46_1570437568880.jpg

.sxPbER6HsLgfaZhvzkjhXA-970-80.jpg

More images.

Quote

Archeologists [sic] recently discovered an ancient lost city north of Tel Aviv. This large, 5,000-year-old city, bustling with around 6,000 people, was the "early Bronze Age New York," of the region and likely one of the first complex cities in what is now Israel, according to excavation directors at the Israel Antiquities Authority....

"Such a city could not develop without having behind it a guiding hand and an administrative mechanism," they said. "Its impressive planning, the tools brought to Israel from Egypt [and Egyptian pottery] found at the site, and its seal impressions are proof of this." Below some of the houses, the archaeologists also uncovered evidence of an even older city that dates back some 7,000 years to the Chalcolithic period.

Just throwing this in here to give a greater sense of the fact there was a lot more going on in the ancient world around this time than people realize with the promise of much yet still to be discovered.  

Edited by Thanos5150
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20 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

A particularly interesting Cucuteni–Trypillian mega-site is Nebelivka which around 4,000BC had a population of as much as 15,000-17,000 people including more than 1200 structures.

Fun fact: 
b1bf27b58905bb6b97f61e3ce47e3ff3--ukraine-cultural.jpg
This Yin Yang symbol is found on several pieces like these which is particularly interesting as there are many pottery motifs found in the Cucuteni–Trypillian that bear a striking resemblance to the Yangshao culture of China c.5000-3000BC. Compare with Cucuteni–Trypillian pottery.

 

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7 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Fun fact: 
b1bf27b58905bb6b97f61e3ce47e3ff3--ukraine-cultural.jpg
This Yin Yang symbol is found on several pieces like these which is particularly interesting as there are many pottery motifs found in the Cucuteni–Trypillian that bear a striking resemblance to the Yangshao culture of China c.5000-3000BC. Compare with Cucuteni–Trypillian pottery.

 

Did any of these cultures have a written form of Language that is as old as Proto-cuneiform?

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25 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Did any of these cultures have a written form of Language that is as old as Proto-cuneiform?

The Cucuteni-Tripillian culture used what is known as the Vinça script, which is older than proto-cuneiform, but resembles it.

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13 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Cucuteni-Tripillian culture used what is known as the Vinça script, which is older than proto-cuneiform, but resembles it.

This is the first I have heard about this and it is certainly interesting. I have just finish a small review of the subject, and it appears that this script has not been translated and their also apears to be some disagreement among Scholars if it is actually a firm of wrttem language or not. Some of the papers I just finished reading even try to compare this form of written script to Proto-Sumerian. So to say the least I am a little confused, but that could be because my elevator may not be going all the way to the top floor.:lol:

Is there anything more definitive as far as research papers either of you could offer on the subject of the Vinca Script, if so please post a link. I will also post some information I have found and maybe the two if you could add your thoughts on the matter concerning the information we have collected.

Thanks in advance.

 

8 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

 

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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

This is the first I have heard about this and it is certainly interesting. I have just finish a small review of the subject, and it appears that this script has not been translated and their also apears to be some disagreement among Scholars if it is actually a firm of wrttem language or not. Some of the papers I just finished reading even try to compare this form of written script to Proto-Sumerian. So to say the least I am a little confused, but that could be because my elevator may not be going all the way to the top floor.:lol:

Is there anything more definitive as far as research papers either of you could offer on the subject of the Vinca Script, if so please post a link. I will also post some information I have found and maybe the two if you could add your thoughts on the matter concerning the information we have collected.

Thanks in advance.

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/55700890/AlteSchriften-v1.4.pdf?1517585547=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DComparison_of_the_Danube_Script_with_the.pdf&Expires=1620277779&Signature=au3t-8dEEv~jci7Imjapmt6KWe1SB8xG34Tk~-EQB~sVjs0o06DzUkIFTU7DnazQgZP2EvbbBv97pIBiOKR0-3vnsOVmmCkIo3mWwRsUg99hOxkrOhH9BD-xSf1b2m8pSGzxV7-x4V~hQMfahcAdJxtxbLoONlEl4Ooj4tbMNwaDbulZZQH47UkbQXzBCHw3pCqIbDLY3ak7WOZkrdNyUmCF~w6MbI88DSzPAjntwZwFORixZpSpHf~KIsj6ZRyZJLA0ULQ4SMsTjxM-tQvo1k3ebIWarlbOZLJJevDuPU1ieNTzhdLexDIUovPDOkorBX14qs3nrAXDVJwmPqgN4Q__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/kadm.1999.38.1-2.114/html

https://arxiv.org/html/math/0309157?ref=Guzels.TV

http://www.ece.uah.edu/~jovanov/other/LEPENSKI_VIR_and_VINCA.pdf

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/29/2021 at 7:48 AM, Harte said:

I note that when I needed a loan, you - a purported lender - offered me nothing.

Harte

 

I understood your comments, however, I still do not feel you berated me in anyway. Honestly, maybe I am a dimwit but I found  I found your comment humorous and in no way insulting and I still feel the same way. However, It is impossible to ever completely read another's intent when words are written. During face to face conversations it is easier to determine by the persons mannerisms what they true intent concerning a subject actually is.

Harte, no matter what you intent was, I am not offended and if your offering an apology, to me the past is water under a bridge and the future starts with the beginning of each new day.:)

Take Care my friend. 

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21 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I understood your comments, however, I still do not feel you berated me in anyway. Honestly, maybe I am a dimwit but I found  I found your comment humorous and in no way insulting and I still feel the same way. However, It is impossible to ever completely read another's intent when words are written. During face to face conversations it is easier to determine by the persons mannerisms what they true intent concerning a subject actually is.

Harte, no matter what you intent was, I am not offended and if your offering an apology, to me the past is water under a bridge and the future starts with the beginning of each new day.:)

Take Care my friend. 

Dude, of course it was a joke. 99.999% of what I post is supposed to be funny (and it is - to me! :D)

Harte

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