The Ark of the Covenant

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

....who is....????  actor? physicist?  comedian?  character on a tv show???  someone from a movie????

Seriously.  No clue here.

A parody character of small-town TV doctors on local news, performed by John C. Reilly, and a spin-off of beloved-by-stoners The Tim and Eric show.

--Jaylemurph

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

A parody character of small-town TV doctors on local news, performed by John C. Reilly, and a spin-off of beloved-by-stoners The Tim and Eric show.

--Jaylemurph

Thanks.  A bit more context there.  Never heard of Tim and Eric, though.  Must be a different generation of stoners.  Anyway... back to the topic at hand...

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

I'm not seriously suggesting it was a granary.

I was pointing out that centuries of christians /did/, based on their reading of Genesis, and that Docy's pronouncement was less than researched.

Of course, I kind of deserve this for even trying to talk sense to her.

--Jaylemurph

And I hadn't been following the conversation closely.

It was kind of fun doing the math, however.  Really highlights how absurd the idea was.

[docyabut2]

Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by docyabut2

[Thanos5150]

16 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I'm not seriously suggesting it was a granary.

Because I was not following the discussion closely I did not know you were joking.... 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

 

Which is inconclusive at best, given the very reasons expounded upon within your own link - some of those being translation with intent to find a specific answer, sloppy/inarticulate scribes, a number of places having similarly pronounced names, at least one of which was in Libya (the subject of rhe stanza in question after all is The Pacification of Libya). 

[docyabut2]

I`m just suggesting Moses did exist. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

18 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I`m just suggesting Moses did exist. 

Because there’s a stela that (maybe) mentions Israel? Would madam like any further straws fo grasp at?

[docyabut2]

 I believe Akhenaten  was Moses.

 

 Moses and Akhenaten one and the same person - Graham Hancock Official Website

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 I believe Akhenaten  was Moses. Moses and Akhenaten one and the same person - Graham Hancock Official Website

Because Moses was Pharaoh? Moses built a city in Egypt? Because “gee they sort of maybe look a little similar if I wish hard enough”?

[Thanos5150]

8 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Because Moses was Pharaoh? Moses built a city in Egypt? Because “gee they sort of maybe look a little similar if I wish hard enough”?

My response in the GHMB discussion regarding Osman's further claim Tutankhamen was Jesus:

 

Quote

Tutankhamen was a very unremarkable pharaoh in AE history and the only reason he is known to us today is because of his cache of grave goods made even more sensational in the era and way it was found. Otherwise we would give a sh[**] about Tutankhamen even less than the AE themselves. 

And you do all realize Tut died a sickly teenager, right? That he was wracked with congenital disease and physical ailments from generations of inbreeding and belonged to a line of people with unusually large elongated skulls? His feet were completely fu[**]ed up with deformities and would have needed to use a cane for most of his life which explains why there were so many buried with him. That is when he wasn't getting carried around. This is not made up sh[**]-we have his body which has been studied extensively. 

If Tut is Jesus then here you go: 

 

Jesus H Christ ladies and gentleman. Oh, and here is his dad, Akhenaten, that is somehow supposedly Moses (WTF?):

"Moses". A freakish and sickly looking androgyne also with enormous elongated skull.

And:

Quote

"Jesus" is the Greek rendering of the name "Yehoshua" with "Christos", or "Christ", meaning "messiah", "anointed one" or in Hebrew/Aramaic "[person to become] king of the Jews". So no, "Jesus" is not a title though Christ certainly was. Regardless, do you think Tut was meant to be "king of the Jews" Eddie? In what reality would it make sense or there be any historical reason to name Tutankhamen "Jesus" and/or "Jesus Christ" let alone have any relevance in any way to the Biblical figure Jesus without such there is no such thing as "Jesus/Jesus Christ" in this context? 

And:

Quote

Yehoshua, or "Yeshua" in Aramic, is the original Hebrew name which translated to Greek is spelled Ἰησοῦς [pronounced yay-zeus]), with an "I". When the Greek NT was translated into Latin in the 4th century it was written as "Iesus", again with an "I". To differentiate between the uses of the Greek "I" it was written as a "J" though still pronounced as an "I". It was not until the 15th century that it began to be pronounced with the "juh" "J" sound becoming the word we know today as "Jesus". Yehoshua=Yeshua=Iesous=Iesus=Jesus. So no, it is not more modern than the Gospel of Phillip and is a name that likely long predates the Bible itself which correctly translated to English would be "Joshua".

 

[Nobu]

Is the exodus story exactly how we are led to believe? Of course not.

But this is a degenerative thread if you guys are actually arguing there wasn’t a man behind the stories of exodus. There were not newspapers or libraries then.:: stories  were passed down verbally.

let the “Jesus didn’t exist” stuff to start next. Same thing.

 

[docyabut2]

4 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Because Moses was Pharaoh? Moses built a city in Egypt? Because “gee they sort of maybe look a little similar if I wish hard enough”?

In Egypt Panagiotakopulu combed the workers'-village site in Amarna, where the builders of the tombs of Egyptian kings Tutankhamun and Akhenaton lived. There, the researcher unearthed cat and human fleas—known to be plague carriers in some cases—in and around the workers' homes.

Bubonic Plague Traced to Ancient Egypt , 

 

Moses `s  plagues 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 minutes ago, Nobu said:

Is the exodus story exactly how we are led to believe? Of course not.

But this is a degenerative thread if you guys are actually arguing there wasn’t a man behind the stories of exodus. There were not newspapers or libraries then.:: stories  were passed down verbally.

let the “Jesus didn’t exist” stuff to start next. Same thing.

The presumption that Exodus wasn’t invented wholly by some clever philosopher-cum-entertainer relies I think on the idea that people in the past weren’t as creative and imaginative as they are today.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, docyabut2 said:

In Egypt Panagiotakopulu combed the workers'-village site in Amarna, where the builders of the tombs of Egyptian kings Tutankhamun and Akhenaton lived. There, the researcher unearthed cat and human fleas—known to be plague carriers in some cases—in and around the workers' homes.

Bubonic Plague Traced to Ancient Egypt , 

 

Moses `s  plagues 

Buboes aren’t boils. People knew what a boil was, a bubo OTOH is a while cartload of scary different. If it was buboes, rhey’d have said “buboes”. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

In Egypt Panagiotakopulu combed the workers'-village site in Amarna, where the builders of the tombs of Egyptian kings Tutankhamun and Akhenaton lived. There, the researcher unearthed cat and human fleas—known to be plague carriers in some cases—in and around the workers' homes.

Bubonic Plague Traced to Ancient Egypt , 

 

Moses `s  plagues 

Also.... finding cats and human fleas in Egypt is like saying “we found sand in Egypt. There was sand mentioned in the Bible. OMG BIBLE PROVEN!”

[docyabut2]

37 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

My response in the GHMB discussion regarding Osman's further claim Tutankhamen was Jesus:

 

And:

And:

 

no Jesus was not  Tutankhamen:)

[docyabut2]

I know Moses in the bible was described  as a deformity when his face was covered  before he died.  i will try to find it again  

Edited August 11, 2021 by docyabut2

[Thanos5150]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:45 AM, Djedi said:

There is of course zero evidence that the Exodus ever happened or that the Israelites were in Egypt for 400 years, the majority of the experts agree that (almost) the whole story is fiction (including Moses). On the other hand, the 350 years of Egyptian colonization / occupation of Canaan is never mentioned  in the OT.

The "Israelites" are Canaanites which Egypt had a continuous hydraulic relationship with the Levant since the beginnings of Nilotic cultures c. 6,000BC which no doubt these peoples migrated from the Levant/Near East in the first place. This relationship was just as continuous and pronounced leading to, beginning with, and throughout the Dynastic Period which by the MK Canaanites were regular staples in Egyptian culture culminating in Hyksos (Canaan) rule of the northern Delta including the founding of the capital city of  Tell El-Dab'a (Avrais) in the 12th/13th Dynasty.  

From the MK tombs at Beni Hasan:

Aegean doric, not Egyptian columns:

 

This of course says nothing of the validity of the Exodus myth, but discounting an intimate relationship with Egypt and the Levant, Canaan, at any point in Egypt's history, is simply not accurate nor warranted to make the argument.  

Quote

The Exodus is a piece of propaganda / legitimization myth in which the Ark is just a side note. One of the main themes is trying to justify how their original main god El became the same as Yahweh.

Myself from elsewhere:

Quote

 

According to Jewish tradition Abraham was born c. 1800BC. This would put his life, and the beginning of the sojourn to Egypt from Canaan, squarely towards the beginnings of the 13th Dynasty in Egypt. Yes, the AE had slaves from the Levant (Canaan), not to mention many other areas like Libya and Nubia, but these were not "Hebrews" but rather various Semitic peoples, often women and war prisoners. There was no such thing as a "Hebrew" during this time nor was there a Yahweh. But they were not an "enslaved people" by any means regardless and Canaan in the 13th Dynasty actually invaded the Nile Delta and formed their own kingdom there....

Moses, if real, is thought to have lived sometime c.14th century BC, in other words the New Kingdom of Egypt. Lots of AE history to be found during this time to help us corroborate the story of Moses of which unfortunately there is none. Interestly though, we do have the The Admonitions of Ipuwer which though the copies found date to the New Kingdom, is thought to be older dating to the Middle Kingdom in which Ipuwer is describing an event 400yrs before his time that would place it in the 1st Intermediate period that spanned from c. 2181-2055BC. Obviously long before Moses and even centuries before Abraham and the sojourn to Egypt meaning this is not the story of the Exodus. Yet compare some of the content found with that of the story of Exodus: HERE.

Ipuwer: 
2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.

Exodus:
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

Ipuwer:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.

Exodus:
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.
9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...
9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.

Exodus:
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.
9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.

Ipuwer:
9:11 The land is without light

Exodus:
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer:
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations

Exodus:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.
12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.

Ipuwer:
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

Exodus:
13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Ipuwer:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.

Exodus:
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

Hmm. If we remove the supernatural elements of Yahweh, Moses and the Hebrews, ect, we have a curiously similar tale. Ipuwer, however, was written long before Moses, historically speaking, not to mention nearly 1500yrs or more before the Exodus was physically written yet there is no mention of Yahweh, or anyone like Him, let alone Moses, Hebrews, ect. 

This is history beyond the Bible.

 

 

Quote

The Ark of the Covenant was possibly constructed in Canaan itself during or just after the Egyptian occupation, could have been in an 'Egyptianising  style' as depicted in Exodus; centuries of cultural exchange with the Egyptian civilization make such a scenario possible.

There are numerous examples/depictions of Egyptian "arks of the covenant" which are sarcophagi/coffins carried by staves going back to at least the OK, later morphed as well into chests representing shrines, in principle no different than the Ark of the Covenant is described:

NK, Tut's tomb: 

Speaking of Tut, relevant to the time period this supposedly happened as well:

New Treasures From Tutankhamun’s Tomb Indicate Surprising Links Between the Levant and Egypt

DNA Study Reveals AE Closely Related to Levant and Anatolian Populations (taken from mummies c.1400BC-400AD). 

It goes without saying the Biblical tale, as most others within its pages, are revisionist history (putting it politely), but to argue against one thing does not mean we should deny the actual history just because it can be misused to support the view being countered. It is what it is. Regardless, all things considered, if real, there is no reason the AoC could not have been made in Egypt by Canaanites.   

 

[Thanos5150]

30 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I know Moses in the bible was described  as a deformity when his face was covered  before he died.  i will try to find it again  

Without putting too fine a point on it, Osman is a kook and this Moses/Akhenaten business is as much nonsense as the Exodus story in the first place. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Djedi]

 

 

9 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Myself from elsewhere:

Quote

 

According to Jewish tradition Abraham was born c. 1800BC. This would put his life, and the beginning of the sojourn to Egypt from Canaan, squarely towards the beginnings of the 13th Dynasty in Egypt. Yes, the AE had slaves from the Levant (Canaan), not to mention many other areas like Libya and Nubia, but these were not "Hebrews" but rather various Semitic peoples, often women and war prisoners. There was no such thing as a "Hebrew" during this time nor was there a Yahweh. But they were not an "enslaved people" by any means regardless and Canaan in the 13th Dynasty actually invaded the Nile Delta and formed their own kingdom there....

Moses, if real, is thought to have lived sometime c.14th century BC, in other words the New Kingdom of Egypt. Lots of AE history to be found during this time to help us corroborate the story of Moses of which unfortunately there is none. Interestly though, we do have the The Admonitions of Ipuwer which though the copies found date to the New Kingdom, is thought to be older dating to the Middle Kingdom in which Ipuwer is describing an event 400yrs before his time that would place it in the 1st Intermediate period that spanned from c. 2181-2055BC. Obviously long before Moses and even centuries before Abraham and the sojourn to Egypt meaning this is not the story of the Exodus. Yet compare some of the content found with that of the story of Exodus: HERE.

Ipuwer: 
2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
2:10 The river is blood.

2:10 Men shrink from tasting - human beings, and thirst after water

3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin.

Exodus:
7:20 …all the waters of the river were turned to blood.
7:21 ...there was blood thoughout all the land of Egypt …and the river stank.

7:24 And all the Egyptians dug around the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

Ipuwer:
2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps... The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong [by right] wheat and barley, geese and fish

6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.

5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which was yesterday seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.

Exodus:
9:23-24 ...and the fire ran along the ground... there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous.
9:25 ...and the hail smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the field.

9:31-32 ...and the flax and the barley was smitten; for the barley was in season, and flax was ripe.

But the wheat and the rye were not smitten; for they were not grown up.

10:15 ...there remained no green things in the trees, or in the herbs of the fields, through all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer:
5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan...
9:2-3 Behold, cattle are left to stray, and there is none to gather them together.

Exodus:
9:3 ...the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field... and there shall be a very grievous sickness.
9:19 ...gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field...

9:21 And he that did not fear the word of the Lord left his servants and cattle in the field.

Ipuwer:
9:11 The land is without light

Exodus:
10:22 And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

Ipuwer:
4:3 (5:6) Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.

6:3 The prison is ruined.

2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.

3:14 It is groaning throughout the land, mingled with lamentations

Exodus:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive that was in the prison.
12:30 ...there was not a house where there was not one dead.

12:30 ...there was a great cry in Egypt.

Ipuwer:
7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

Exodus:
13:21 ... by day in a pillar of cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Ipuwer:
3:2 Gold and lapis lazuli, silver and malachite, carnelian and bronze... are fastened on the neck of female slaves.

Exodus:
12:35-36 ...and they requested from the Egyptians, silver and gold articles and clothing. And God made the Egyptians favour them and they granted their request. [The Israelites] thus drained Egypt of its wealth.

Hmm. If we remove the supernatural elements of Yahweh, Moses and the Hebrews, ect, we have a curiously similar tale. Ipuwer, however, was written long before Moses, historically speaking, not to mention nearly 1500yrs or more before the Exodus was physically written yet there is no mention of Yahweh, or anyone like Him, let alone Moses, Hebrews, ect. 

This is history beyond the Bible.

 

Good example of how the writer(s) of Exodus incorporated parts of another (foreign) story in his own; this happened also in other books of the OT, sometimes it's just a few elements, sometimes it's more outspoken. The Egyptian influence doesn't stop with the end of the New Kingdom occupation either, some texts are clearly influenced by Late Period Egyptian ones. Some examples can be found in this article here. The author of the article is surprised that the degree of AE influence is rather low, but  he apparently missed some stuff such like the Ipuwer story.

The Exodus story was written as a result of the Babylonian Exile according to most modern scholars and was mainly meant as a myth / story of hope, not as a description of historical facts. wiki

All modern scholars agree at least that the Exodus didn't happen as depicted in the OT, but there are some that don't exclude the presence of elements based on historical facts. One such example is Eliot Friedman who in his book Exodus proposes a small scale 'exodus' of Yahweh worshippers who then introduced this god into the pantheon of the Israelites whose main god was El. He thinks this group is referenced in the Bible as the Levite class. They might have been the enigmatic Shasu of Yahu mentioned on a monument of Amenhotep III.

Imo it's virtually impossible to prove which parts of Exodus might hide historical facts if any.

 

[Abramelin]

[Thanos5150]

5 hours ago, Djedi said:

Good example of how the writer(s) of Exodus incorporated parts of another (foreign) story in his own; this happened also in other books of the OT, sometimes it's just a few elements, sometimes it's more outspoken.

To compare the Bible Flood tale of Noah to that of the much older Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh, whose origins of the Flood Myth date back even farther, the Biblical tale is clearly taken from the latter with even many of the details all but identical.  For example (myself):

And like Noah, Utnapishtim also released several birds until they did not come back meaning they had at last found dry land. And just like the Bible that tells us how after the ark had been evacuated, the “Lord smelled a sweet savour” of the burnt offerings, so too had the gods of the Epic of Gilgamesh “…smelled the sweet savour…” of the sacrifice.

Even some of the words are verbatim.

Quote

The Egyptian influence doesn't stop with the end of the New Kingdom occupation either, some texts are clearly influenced by Late Period Egyptian ones. Some examples can be found in this article here. The author of the article is surprised that the degree of AE influence is rather low, but  he apparently missed some stuff such like the Ipuwer story.

I don't think this is all that surprising as the period these books were written not only had Judea become a state, i.e. they had a homeland, but more so were directly dominated by the perpetual conflict and subjugation from the Near East-Assyrians, Babylonians, and Persians. Not to mention the Greeks. Egyptian influence at this time was peripheral by comparison. The author you link above is also surprised no pharaohs are mentioned by name except for those at the beginning of the 1st millennium, the time much of the OT was written, but why would they be? How does the writer of the Exodus, in say 500BC, know what pharaoh ruled for a story they are making up that took place roughly 1000yrs before?  And not only does the story not require it but would be diminished if it did as leaving it with the nebulous "pharaoh" imbues the symbolic power the position holds instead of tying it to a name. 

Quote

All modern scholars agree at least that the Exodus didn't happen as depicted in the OT, but there are some that don't exclude the presence of elements based on historical facts. One such example is Eliot Friedman who in his book Exodus proposes a small scale 'exodus' of Yahweh worshippers who then introduced this god into the pantheon of the Israelites whose main god was El. He thinks this group is referenced in the Bible as the Levite class. They might have been the enigmatic Shasu of Yahu mentioned on a monument of Amenhotep III.

I don't think one needs to be a "modern scholar" to arrive at this conclusion. 

No matter how small, there is a kernel of truth to most every myth. 

[Abramelin]

18 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 I believe Akhenaten  was Moses.

 

 Moses and Akhenaten one and the same person - Graham Hancock Official Website

 

Docy, I didn't even click on your link.

Moses travelled through the desert for 40 years according to the Bible.

Do you seriously think that a deformed, genetically impaired individual like Akhenaten could survive such a demanding journey?

For 40 years?

[Thanos5150]

30 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Docy, I didn't even click on your link.

Moses travelled through the desert for 40 years according to the Bible.

Do you seriously think that a deformed, genetically impaired individual like Akhenaten could survive such a demanding journey?

For 40 years?

And by the time he was done he looked like this: 

 

Truly a miracle. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Thanos5150