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docyabut2

The Ark of the Covenant

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Ishmael and Isaac (therefinersfire.org)

The Book of Revelation predicts another sphere of power that will enter this war with 200 million soldiers. This power bloc is called "the Kings of the East". They will move into the Middle East and attack once the war has started. The Bible says they will wipe out a third of the world's population.

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atalante
On 8/26/2021 at 1:35 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Worship (then) involved sacrifices (amongst other practices), they didn’t sacrifice to the Cherubim, nor in fact to the Ark. it was just a pretty box they carried the manifestation of YHWH’s will about in (and secretly a WMD). When the OT writers talk about worship there’s a lot of cultural stuff going on that we miss (the world behind the text according to the RE curriculum) ....

 

Israel Finkelstein has been excavating at Kiriath Jearim since 2017, in search of the legends behind the Ark of the Covenant story.  The following video is a bit long, but there is a summary by Finkelstein near the end of  the video.  

 

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Tom1200
On 8/28/2021 at 2:15 AM, docyabut2 said:

The Book of Revelation predicts another sphere of power that will enter this war with 200 million soldiers. This power bloc is called "the Kings of the East". They will move into the Middle East and attack once the war has started. The Bible says they will wipe out a third of the world's population.

But it also specifies they will be cavalry.  Mounted troops.  200 million horses... that's an awful lot of horse$h!t to clean up...

It's also four times the global horse population, but I'll overlook that small discrepancy.  I suspect there are more glaring errors and difficulties arising from using a 1900-year-old text as a source of future knowledge.

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Abramelin
1 hour ago, Tom1200 said:

But it also specifies they will be cavalry.  Mounted troops.  200 million horses... that's an awful lot of horse$h!t to clean up...

It's also four times the global horse population, but I'll overlook that small discrepancy.  I suspect there are more glaring errors and difficulties arising from using a 1900-year-old text as a source of future knowledge.

Who suggested those soldiers would come on horseback?

And thousands of years old texts can be reliable: remember Erathostenes, calculating the circumference of the earth?

He was pretty close, right?

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And thousands of years old texts can be reliable: remember Erathostenes, calculating the circumference of the earth?

He was pretty close, right?

But he was not predicting anything, he was estimating the circumference of the earth.   Apples and oranges.

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Abramelin
20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

But he was not predicting anything, he was estimating the circumference of the earth.   Apples and oranges.

This is what Tom said:

"I suspect there are more glaring errors and difficulties arising from using a 1900-year-old text as a source of future knowledge."

Some used Erathostenes calculations, in the future, and proved him right.

Ok, E. didn't make a prediction, he only said that about 40,000 kilometers will be the expected circumference.

 

 

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Trelane
7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Who suggested those soldiers would come on horseback?

And thousands of years old texts can be reliable: remember Erathostenes, calculating the circumference of the earth?

He was pretty close, right?

What other forms of cavalry were there at the time that Revelations was written?

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Tom1200
12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Who suggested those soldiers would come on horseback?

And thousands of years old texts can be reliable: remember Erathostenes, calculating the circumference of the earth?  He was pretty close, right?

Point one: Different translations give variations on the common theme.  Here's from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 9&version=NIV

16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: ... and so on.

See the word 'horses'?  It doesn't say 'elephants'.  Or 'camels'.  Or helicopters, tanks, roller-skates or fire-breathing dragons.  Horses.

Point two: Did you mean: eratosthenes ? ( Ἐρατοσθένης)

I can't see how that has any relevance.  I never suggested that everything written in the past is wrong.  Eratosthenes was a clever chap - a mathematician and in some ways resembling what we today would call a scientist.  Much of what he studied was correct, like those other ancient luminaries Pyfagoras, Youclid and Arkimeedes.

In contrast Revelation was written by some drugged-up hippy monk and is nothing but his recollection of incoherent hallucinations recorded as train of thought, with no plot or character development.  As DesertRat said - apples and orangutans.

5 hours ago, Trelane said:

What other forms of cavalry were there at the time that Revelations was written?

I believe the fairie folk of northern Europe would ride into battle on hedgehogs; more-comfortable hamster mounts were not widely available until recent times.  And everyone knows the Incans didn't have horses so they probably rode llamas.

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Piney
1 minute ago, Tom1200 said:

I believe the fairie folk of northern Europe would ride into battle on hedgehogs; more-comfortable hamster mounts were not widely available until recent times.  And everyone knows the Incans didn't have horses so they probably rode llamas.

In the North they rode war beagles. In the Midlands they rode muzzled Welshmen.

5 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

I believe the fairie folk of northern Europe would ride into battle on hedgehogs; more-comfortable hamster mounts were not widely available until recent times.  And everyone knows the Incans didn't have horses so they probably rode llamas.

It's not even that. It's a Greek style satire written as a Daniel style prophecy and I doubt even John of Patmos wrote it, let alone John the Evangelist, who probably didn't exist. 

When Athanasius slammed the New Testament together he tried mixing apples and oranges like Jude (Thomas Judas?) , James and Paul's ( edited by another schmuck) letters.

......wait......Howacome Croydon's not covidtized like Central London? :unsure2:

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jaylemurph
14 hours ago, Trelane said:

What other forms of cavalry were there at the time that Revelations was written?

Elephants.

Chariots.

--Jaylemurph

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Tom1200
On 9/16/2021 at 9:18 AM, Piney said:

In the North they rode war beagles. In the Midlands they rode muzzled Welshmen.

Were the Welshmen gelded? 

They must have been quite a horrifying spectacle - black coal dust flying everywhere and that singing...

On 9/16/2021 at 9:18 AM, Piney said:

......wait......Howacome Croydon's not covidtized like Central London? :unsure2:

We seceded.  Got our own currency, army and licencing laws now.  And no NHS so no covid tests or data.  So many problems simply go away once you stop looking for them.

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Piney
3 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

 that singing...

 

The spittle flying everywhere was a bigger problem. :o

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Harte
On 9/15/2021 at 9:37 PM, Trelane said:

What other forms of cavalry were there at the time that Revelations was written?

Voleback.

Could be trouble brewing there.

Harte

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Piney
8 minutes ago, Harte said:

Vole

 

Uh-oh.....:unsure2:

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Abramelin
On 9/16/2021 at 4:37 AM, Trelane said:

What other forms of cavalry were there at the time that Revelations was written?

I really shouldn't post when intoxicated with ethanol...

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Wepwawet
On 8/20/2021 at 7:21 PM, Wistman said:

???   Is the term 333 found anywhere else other than in Steiner's text/translation, irrespective of his assigned Serpent-Mother meaning? 

 

It took a while, but I've finally received his book. The answer as to why Steiner sees 333 may have eyes rolling back in heads. It comes down to whether a text contains Gardiner sign G1, the vulture, or G4, the buzzard. Both signs in printed form are identical, and can only be differentiated in original insciptions because G4 has a rounder head. But this can be subjective, particularly on inscriptions that are less than sharp and perfect. The signs that Steiner says are the name of a Byblos snake god can then be read as 333 - ri-ri-ri, which is what he sees, or tiw - ti-ti-ti. Due to inconsistencies in the original inscriptions, Steiner says that this shows that the Egyptian scribes were dealing with a non Egyptian name, and did not have an agreed spelling for this name. Steiner points out that when these texts appear in modified form in the Coffin Texts, then the spelling is consistently tiw, but essentialy says that it does not mean that this was the original version, only that it has become the standard version, and also acknowledges that some of these relevant texts are untranslatable.

There, all cleared up with no ambiguities and loose ends :rolleyes:

Edited by Wepwawet
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ThereWeAreThen
On 9/16/2021 at 9:18 AM, Piney said:

In the North they rode war beagles. In the Midlands they rode muzzled Welshmen.

 

It's not even that. It's a Greek style satire written as a Daniel style prophecy and I doubt even John of Patmos wrote it, let alone John the Evangelist, who probably didn't exist. 

When Athanasius slammed the New Testament together he tried mixing apples and oranges like Jude (Thomas Judas?) , James and Paul's ( edited by another schmuck) letters.

......wait......Howacome Croydon's not covidtized like Central London? :unsure2:

You just have to dont you. You'll be hearing from the lawyer who I most definitely can't afford. :angry:

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
On 9/21/2021 at 1:12 AM, ThereWeAreThen said:

You just have to dont you. You'll be hearing from the lawyer who I most definitely can't afford. :angry:

How expensive can a Welsh lawyer be. Something like two sheep ? 

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ThereWeAreThen
4 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

How expensive can a Welsh lawyer be. Something like two sheep ? 

Aye plus fish n chips and a packet of crisps!!

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Kenemet
On 9/20/2021 at 5:49 AM, Wepwawet said:

The signs that Steiner says are the name of a Byblos snake god can then be read as 333 - ri-ri-ri, which is what he sees, or tiw - ti-ti-ti. Due to inconsistencies in the original inscriptions, Steiner says that this shows that the Egyptian scribes were dealing with a non Egyptian name, and did not have an agreed spelling for this name. Steiner points out that when these texts appear in modified form in the Coffin Texts, then the spelling is consistently tiw, but essentialy says that it does not mean that this was the original version, only that it has become the standard version, and also acknowledges that some of these relevant texts are untranslatable.

Did he also bother to explain why the Egyptians would suddenly adopt a minor deity from a country that they had little interaction with?

Were they collecting snake gods?

Is there a prize for "Most Snake Gods In A Single Religion?"  Does having more than five of them prevent hissy fits?  Was it a teenage scribal "thing" like being a fan of Korean boy bands?

 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
17 hours ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Aye plus fish n chips and a packet of crisps!!

Oh I see you want a fancy lawyer.

Over here that will cost you four big LEGO sets and a jar of pickled herring.

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Wepwawet
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

Did he also bother to explain why the Egyptians would suddenly adopt a minor deity from a country that they had little interaction with?

Were they collecting snake gods?

Is there a prize for "Most Snake Gods In A Single Religion?"  Does having more than five of them prevent hissy fits?  Was it a teenage scribal "thing" like being a fan of Korean boy bands?

 

I need to look at this more closely and from other sources, but what he seems to be doing is put the cart before the horse, and having Egyptian gods, Hathor and the Sungod, in some form or other, and there are many, seem to be Semitic gods in Byblos. This is not really in origin, but in that the Egyptian names have become corrupted in Semitic use in Byblos, and it makes it look as if they are then Semitic in origin. He uses examples from the 18th Dynasty were Semitic gods have been Egyptianized, Baal to Seth, and saying that this also happened in the 5th Dynasty, without, it seems, taking into account that it is possible that some of these Semitic gods may have been Egyptian in the first place. and, in my non expert opinion, the PT shows this.

This name Ḫʿy t3w he does in the book translate as "Apparent in Heat", similar to Allen, but instead of seeing it as a version of the Sungod, says that it is entirely Semitic because it appears in the same texts as 333, or, and take your pick, tiw which is undisputably Egyptian in the context, and why it is used in the same texts when applied to MK coffins, and not 333.

A counter argument is that the undeniably dodgy spelling in the PT is not the result of them being Semitic in origin, but that they are errors that have crept in over the hundreds of years from formulation to first being set in stone, and then later corrected in the CT. Steiner does acknowledge this, but dismisses it.

I'll admit that this is above my paygrade, and important elements of the book are in multiple languages, German, okay, French, very dodgy, and Hebrew, no chance.

 

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ThereWeAreThen
6 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Oh I see you want a fancy lawyer.

Over here that will cost you four big LEGO sets and a jar of pickled herring.

OMG I'm gonna study law and move to Denmark! Question, if I don't want the pickled herring can I get more LEGO sets?

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jaylemurph
9 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Was it a teenage scribal "thing" like being a fan of Korean boy bands?

Excuse me! I’m hardly a teen and I’m a big fan of NCT 127. ;)

—Jaylemurph 

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Kenemet
21 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

I need to look at this more closely and from other sources, but what he seems to be doing is put the cart before the horse, and having Egyptian gods, Hathor and the Sungod, in some form or other, and there are many, seem to be Semitic gods in Byblos. This is not really in origin, but in that the Egyptian names have become corrupted in Semitic use in Byblos, and it makes it look as if they are then Semitic in origin. He uses examples from the 18th Dynasty were Semitic gods have been Egyptianized, Baal to Seth, and saying that this also happened in the 5th Dynasty, without, it seems, taking into account that it is possible that some of these Semitic gods may have been Egyptian in the first place. and, in my non expert opinion, the PT shows this.

This name Ḫʿy t3w he does in the book translate as "Apparent in Heat", similar to Allen, but instead of seeing it as a version of the Sungod, says that it is entirely Semitic because it appears in the same texts as 333, or, and take your pick, tiw which is undisputably Egyptian in the context, and why it is used in the same texts when applied to MK coffins, and not 333.

A counter argument is that the undeniably dodgy spelling in the PT is not the result of them being Semitic in origin, but that they are errors that have crept in over the hundreds of years from formulation to first being set in stone, and then later corrected in the CT. Steiner does acknowledge this, but dismisses it.

I'll admit that this is above my paygrade, and important elements of the book are in multiple languages, German, okay, French, very dodgy, and Hebrew, no chance.

 

You don't have to have the paygrade to reason out that this is not a good study.

Let's think about this for a minute to answer the question: "Under what circumstances do foreign gods integrate themselves into a pantheon?"

Now, while you (or any individual) might decide that Amun-Re is a better deity and you'd change your worship, America isn't suddenly going to start worshiping Amun-Re (or Bastet or Thor or any of the others.)  Religion and culture are pretty intertwined.  So there's no case where a lone priest strolls up to a nation and says "how about this religion" and everyone says "yeah!" and converts or adds the deity to their personal altars.

I know of only three routes by which a foreign deity enters a native pantheon:

1) force.  People with a different religion conquer an area, replacing the leaders with their own leaders and possibly even forbidding the worship of the native deities (ala Mexico).  Traces of the old ways may linger and some of the native gods may be incorporated (greatly changed) into the religion of the conquerors.

2) resettlement.  Large numbers of people from religion A move into cities where religion B is practiced.  Their practices become intermingled with local practices (Hyksos, I'm looking at you) and deities can shift to other pantheons.

3) liminality.  Along the borders, where people from one area often marry people from an adjoining area, is a place where you see families changing the nature of worship and bringing both dad's gods and mom's gods into the households.

I don't think there's another way...but if you think of one, we could exploreit.

HOWEVER... Biblyos meets none of those scenarios.  It didn't conquer Egypt and rule for hundreds of years -- and vice-versa.  It wasn't a borderlands with Egypt, and no large number of Canaanites wandered into Egypt and resettled.  Hence, there is no scenario to explain how that deity suddenly left all its fellow deities and hotfooted it down into the middle of Egypt and inserted itself into the Pyramid Texts.

 

 

 

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