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Manwon Lender

The Holy Spear of Christ. Three exist however, which one is real??

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)

The Holy Spear is also known as the Holy Lance. This is the spear believed to have been used to stab Jesus during His crucifixion. The Holy spear has a great significance to all Christians. Many people believe that the holy spear is the relic that is today housed in St. Peters basilica although it is very hard to prove this. Currently there are 3 Holy Spears that exist, however, to date no one has been able to prove which one is real. Below are locations where these Spears currently are: The Holy Spear (vatican.com)

1.)  The Holy Spear in RomeThe first person to refer this as the Holy Spear was pilgrim Antoninus of Piacenza in 570 AD: Anonymous pilgrim of Piacenza - Wikipedia

2.)  The Holy Spear in Vienna: This particular spear is known as the lance of St. Maurice: Saint Maurice - Wikipedia

3.)  The Holy Spear in Echmiadzin: It is believed that the spear was brought in the country by the Apostle Thaddeus: Geghard - Wikipedia

4.)  Where is the true Holy Spear, which pierced the side of Jesus: Where is the true Holy Lance, which pierced the side of Christ? (aleteia.org)             

                                  

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Piney
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

no one has been able to prove which one is real.

None.....

First they have to prove there was a Rabbi named Jesus who was crucified......

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

What makes you think any of them are real?

I am not in any position to say what is real or false when it comes to Christianity. Because I do not believe in Universal all powerful deity's that can snap their fingers and create of destroy all we know. You see I am a practicing Buddhist, and as a Buddhist it is not my place to judge another's religious beliefs. The reason I started this thread is because I am also a history buff. I have always wanted to discuss this subject for the historical content of the stories alone.

Hopefully other members will chime in and offer more information on this subject, that's what is wonderful about this forum. There are number of very intelligent people who have a background in many forms of ancient history. 

Hope I answered your question, and thanks for your post!:tu:

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Manwon Lender
13 minutes ago, Piney said:

None.....

First they have to prove there was a Rabbi named Jesus who was crucified......

My friend I realize that, however, I am interested in the historical back stories on these objects. Hopefully, you or others can shed some light on the claims made about the Spears.

Peace

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Manwon Lender

Note: I am not making the claim that any of these relics were used by a Roman soldier to pierce the side of Jesus Christ. I realize according to biblical scripture that Jesus was Crucified on Mount Golgotha, which is now where the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is currently located. The reason I started this thread was because I am interested in the back stories of the 3 Spears that are spoken about at the Vatican.Com/Archive. The information I am interested in is when these items were first spoken about historically, and where according to the same information they originated from.

I would appreciate, any information on this subject.   Thanks very much in advance!! :tu:

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ouija ouija

Maybe the 'real' one was lost at the time? After all, it wouldn't have seemed to have any significance at the time. 

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Maybe the 'real' one was lost at the time? After all, it wouldn't have seemed to have any significance at the time. 

That's a very good point, it hard to say. But, may be if this thread progresses someone will add some information that will point us in that direction. 

Here is something I have found that you may be interested in.

56487859.pdf (uib.no)

Edited by Manwon Lender

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ouija ouija
32 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

That's a very good point, it hard to say. But, may be if this thread progresses someone will add some information that will point us in that direction. 

Here is something I have found that you may be interested in.

56487859.pdf (uib.no)

I'm not interested enough to read all that!

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Manwon Lender
45 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

I'm not interested enough to read all that!

That's fine, take care.

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ouija ouija
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

That's fine, take care.

Suddenly realised that may have sounded a bit snippy and rude; it wasn't meant to be.Sorry. I was taken aback by how much reading there was to do! I think it would be mainly Roman Catholics that would be interested/believe in this subject. I don't belong to any religion, but having been brought up in the Church of England I occasionally find stuff like this briefly interesting.

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Buzz_Light_Year

I thought it was common knowledge that the Spear of Destiny was in Castle Wolfenstein. :D

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Suddenly realised that may have sounded a bit snippy and rude; it wasn't meant to be.Sorry. I was taken aback by how much reading there was to do! I think it would be mainly Roman Catholics that would be interested/believe in this subject. I don't belong to any religion, but having been brought up in the Church of England I occasionally find stuff like this briefly interesting.

That's  ok, please don't give it another thought, but thank you for clearing that up.. I agree it is a lot to read, I also have not read it all yet myself. I was baptized at birth as a Catholic, according to that tradition I was given a God Father. However, by my teenage years, I had turned my back on all organized religion and I never looked back. I married my wife in 1986, she is South Korean and a Buddist. In the late 1990s, I also became interested in Buddhas teachings. So since that time I have been practicing Buddhism, the thing that I found most interesting about Buddhism is the lack of a God figure. Buddha was just a man who was born and died like anyone man. The only thing that sets him apart is the manner in which he viewed the world, and life. The way he chose to reach an  understanding of life and the world that could lead to enlightenment if followed.

Take care

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Tatetopa

it would be nice if Gungnir turns up during the search. 

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

it would be nice if Gungnir turns up during the search. 

That would be pretty cool Tate, in fact I would rather find Gungnir than the Holy Spear!:yes:

See the source image

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Tatetopa
44 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

That would be pretty cool Tate, in fact I would rather find Gungnir than the Holy Spear!

It tasted the blood of many kings and heroes before they found their places on the feasting benches in Valholl.

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Manwon Lender
Just now, Tatetopa said:

It tasted the blood of many kings and heroes before they found their places on the feasting benches in Valholl.

Well, correct me if I am wrong but according what I have read concerning the Norse legends of Valhalla. Each day there are great battles fought in Valhalla were pretty much everyone dies, and than at night all are resurrected and they feast all night until the next morning!!!!

Sounds like a very interesting version of the afterlife, but it certainly does reflect upon the Norse Society general.:)

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well, correct me if I am wrong but according what I have read concerning the Norse legends of Valhalla. Each day there are great battles fought in Valhalla were pretty much everyone dies, and than at night all are resurrected and they feast all night until the next morning!!!!

Sounds like a very interesting version of the afterlife, but it certainly does reflect upon the Norse Society general.

Yeah.  You will have to read some of the eddas to get the whole story.   Odin was a self-serving, dishonorable, conniving god; not the benevolent proto Santa Claus new agers like to think.  Oracles told him he would die during the final battle of the gods.  He knew he couldn't avoid it, but he was trying. He was gathering an army of heroes to fight for the gods.  He manipulated men, raised great families up to become heroes, betrayed them, set kings against each other  to pick the best for his einherjar.  His daughters, the Valkyrs were harvesting the best off the battlefields.  Everybody else went to Helheim or one of the other afterlife realms, even warriors who did not make the cut to first string.

It is way off topic, but here is are a few verses by Egil Skallagrimsson lamenting the loss of his son,  Odin is mentioned, as the giver of poetry, dark destroyer of kin, lord of spears. .  Ran is the sea god.  It is a mixture of grief and defiance, they were a complex people, not so one sided as movies portray. Its a bit long.

4. My stock

Stands on the brink

Pounded as planar-trees
On the forest’s rim
No man is glad
Who carries the bones
Of his dead kinsman
Out of the bed

7. The sea-goddess
Has ruffled me
Stripped me bare
Of my loved ones:
The ocean severed
My family’s bonds
The tight knot
That ties me down

8. If by sword I might
Avenge that deed
The brewer of waves
Would meet his end;
Smite the wind’s brother
That dashes the bay
Do battle against
The sea-god’s wife

9. Yet I felt
I lacked the might
To seek justice against
The killer of ships
For it is clear
To all eyes
How an old man
Lacks helpers


15. It is rare to find
One to trust
Amongst men who dwell
Beneath Odin’s gallows
For the dark-minded
Destroyer of kin
Swaps his brother’s
Death for treasure

18. I do not relish
The company of men
Though each of them might
Live in peace with me;
My wife’s son
Has come in search
Of friendship
To One-Eye’s hall

22. I was in league
With the lord of spears
Pledged myself loyal
To believe in him
Before he broke off
His friendship with me
The guardian of chariots
Architect of victory

23. I do not worship
Vilir’s brother
Guardian of the gods
Through my own longing
Though in good ways too
The friend of wisdom
Has granted me
Redress for affliction

24. He who does battle
And tackles the hell-wolf
Gave me the craft
That is beyond reproach
And the nature
That I could reveal
Those who plotted against me
As my true enemies

25. Now my course is tough:
Death, close sister
Of Odin’s enemy
Stands on the ness:
With resolution
And without remorse
I shall gladly
Await my own

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Manwon Lender
36 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yeah.  You will have to read some of the eddas to get the whole story.   Odin was a self-serving, dishonorable, conniving god; not the benevolent proto Santa Claus new agers like to think.  Oracles told him he would die during the final battle of the gods.  He knew he couldn't avoid it, but he was trying. He was gathering an army of heroes to fight for the gods.  He manipulated men, raised great families up to become heroes, betrayed them, set kings against each other  to pick the best for his einherjar.  His daughters, the Valkyrs were harvesting the best off the battlefields.  Everybody else went to Helheim or one of the other afterlife realms, even warriors who did not make the cut to first string.

It is way off topic, but here is are a few verses by Egil Skallagrimsson lamenting the loss of his son,  Odin is mentioned, as the giver of poetry, dark destroyer of kin, lord of spears. .  Ran is the sea god.  It is a mixture of grief and defiance, they were a complex people, not so one sided as movies portray. Its a bit long.

4. My stock

Stands on the brink

Pounded as planar-trees
On the forest’s rim
No man is glad
Who carries the bones
Of his dead kinsman
Out of the bed

7. The sea-goddess
Has ruffled me
Stripped me bare
Of my loved ones:
The ocean severed
My family’s bonds
The tight knot
That ties me down

8. If by sword I might
Avenge that deed
The brewer of waves
Would meet his end;
Smite the wind’s brother
That dashes the bay
Do battle against
The sea-god’s wife

9. Yet I felt
I lacked the might
To seek justice against
The killer of ships
For it is clear
To all eyes
How an old man
Lacks helpers


15. It is rare to find
One to trust
Amongst men who dwell
Beneath Odin’s gallows
For the dark-minded
Destroyer of kin
Swaps his brother’s
Death for treasure

18. I do not relish
The company of men
Though each of them might
Live in peace with me;
My wife’s son
Has come in search
Of friendship
To One-Eye’s hall

22. I was in league
With the lord of spears
Pledged myself loyal
To believe in him
Before he broke off
His friendship with me
The guardian of chariots
Architect of victory

23. I do not worship
Vilir’s brother
Guardian of the gods
Through my own longing
Though in good ways too
The friend of wisdom
Has granted me
Redress for affliction

24. He who does battle
And tackles the hell-wolf
Gave me the craft
That is beyond reproach
And the nature
That I could reveal
Those who plotted against me
As my true enemies

25. Now my course is tough:
Death, close sister
Of Odin’s enemy
Stands on the ness:
With resolution
And without remorse
I shall gladly
Await my own

I had no Idea you were into the Norse sagas. I have never read them myself but they seem interesting, so maybe I will read some of them. I have always been interested in the Norse ending of the World. ( Ragnarok ) I think maybe later I will start by reading that one, hey thanks for the idea. 

Did you ever think about starting thread about the Norse Sagas, I think it would stir an interesting conversation. 

Since you obviously know a great deal about it maybe you should start it?

If you do please link me to it, I will certainly support it!:tu:

Take Care my friend

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