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Manwon Lender

At least 35 killed in Gaza as Israel ramps up airstrikes in response to rocket attacks

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Manwon Lender

Tensions between Israelis and Palestinians have escalated further as Palestinian militants in Gaza fired hundreds of rockets into Israel, which responded with ramped up airstrikes on the coastal enclave, as unrest spread to cities and towns beyond Jerusalem. "The deliberate targeting of civilian houses and crowded residential neighborhoods puts more than half of the population of the Gaza Strip, including women and children, in a state of panic," Al Qidra said in a post to Twitter on Wednesday.

Israel-Palestine conflict: At least 35 killed in Gaza as Israel ramps up airstrikes in response to rocket attacks (msn.com)

 

 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

What has to have happened to someone to get to a point where “they are evicting people.... BREAK OUT THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!” is a thought that even occurs, let alone followed through with?

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Manwon Lender
38 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

What has to have happened to someone to get to a point where “they are evicting people.... BREAK OUT THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!” is a thought that even occurs, let alone followed through with?

In reality it is the Palestinian People who suffer during these conflicts and they dont even have a dog in the fight. Hamas and other terrorist groups pick a fight with Israel and the Palestinian people suffer the effects of the conflicts. There are two main forces that are at play here and niether care about the suffering of the actual Palestinian people. Hamas uses them as human shields, and Israel has not honored the United Nations Peace Plan they were signatories too. Its a terrible situation, Israel is targeting settlements and other civilian areas and killing innocent women and children. While Hamas further escalates the situation which only serves their needs and not the needs of the Palestinian People. 

Hopefully Israel will see that what they are doing is wrong, because that is the only chance the Palestinians have.:(

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37 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

What has to have happened to someone to get to a point where “they are evicting people.... BREAK OUT THE ROCKET LAUNCHERS!” is a thought that even occurs, let alone followed through with?

They are on Iran's payroll.  It won't surprise me to see the Hizballah join the fight soon.  I see they are using the tried and true "dead baby strategy".  5 Israelis and 35 Palestinians dead, for what?  The most eye-opening part of this iteration of the "grass mowing" the Israelis are doing, is that the pressure of the Biden administration is having ZERO EFFECT.  They have realized he is their enemy and are now refusing to bend to U.S. pressure to let their enemies kill them with impunity.  If this holds, tectonic events may be on the horizon between Israel and Iran.

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15 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Hopefully Israel will see that what they are doing is wrong, because that is the only chance the Palestinians have.

Give in to their enemy's strategy for the sake of people who SUPPORT their enemies?  Those days are over.  The IDF has been telling everyone who will listen, especially in southern Lebanon, that when the next fighting comes, it will be catastrophic in intensity and duration.  Thousands of residents in southern Lebanon live in free housing provided by Iran.  They know that either launchers or rocket caches are stored there.  Israel has gone so far as to list the location of these homes in advance so that if the day comes that they need to stop thousands of rockets falling on Israel, the world will already have been given notice of their intentions.

The death toll in Lebanon in the next war between the IDF and Hizballah/Hamas is going to be tragic, possibly unprecedented.

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Manwon Lender
8 minutes ago, and then said:

Give in to their enemy's strategy for the sake of people who SUPPORT their enemies?  Those days are over.  The IDF has been telling everyone who will listen, especially in southern Lebanon, that when the next fighting comes, it will be catastrophic in intensity and duration.  Thousands of residents in southern Lebanon live in free housing provided by Iran.  They know that either launchers or rocket caches are stored there.  Israel has gone so far as to list the location of these homes in advance so that if the day comes that they need to stop thousands of rockets falling on Israel, the world will already have been given notice of their intentions.

The death toll in Lebanon in the next war between the IDF and Hizballah/Hamas is going to be tragic, possibly unprecedented.

Hello And then and thanks for your participation in this thread. I have no doubt that this conflict can escalate into a full on military conflict. I also agree that the death tolls will be unprecedented, but lets be clear who we are talking about here. Those death tolls will consist of dead women, children, and the elderly, and in all of this these people are innocent and not a threat to Israel. Now, I looked for information on the 1000s of Palestinians that are provided housing by Iran and unless you can provide a link that discusses this I am unable to support your claim. Like the other comments you made about Palestinians being housed by Iran, I also can not confirm your comments about the Palestinians storing rockets and launchers that you say they are doing.

I support Israel very strongly, however, they are not angles and they certainly have not been the driving force to settle the cause of this violence on thier own boarders. During the Trump Administration, President trump had his son in law Jared Kushner try to begin a Middle East Peace initiative. While the peace plan does address methods that can be used to install a working economic relationship with her neighbors ( United Arab Emirates) it has no details on how the Israeli / Palestinian issues would be solved. Now this the most important issue and it has not been outlined or addressed by the Trump Administrations plans for  peace in the Middle East. Now, my friend over the last 50 years it has become very clear that without a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian issue no peace can ever become a reality for Israel. So basically the Trump peace plan amounted to nothing.

I guess the point we disagree on is your statement that the Palestinians support Hezbollah and Hamas which really isn't the case. The average Palestinian is nothing but a filler on the Chess Board between Israel and the Terrorists. These people want nothing but peace and security for their families and nothing more. Its very easy to say that the Palestinians are terrorists, but in reality nothing could be farther from the truth. So, we will have to agree to disagree on this subject. In reality the only way this issue can ever be solved is buy Israelis offering a true plan for peace, and no matter what anyone says Israel is the only country capable of making this happen.

JIMO

 

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Tatetopa
12 hours ago, and then said:

They are on Iran's payroll.  It won't surprise me to see the Hizballah join the fight soon.  I see they are using the tried and true "dead baby strategy".  5 Israelis and 35 Palestinians dead, for what?  The most eye-opening part of this iteration of the "grass mowing" the Israelis are doing, is that the pressure of the Biden administration is having ZERO EFFECT.  They have realized he is their enemy and are now refusing to bend to U.S. pressure to let their enemies kill them with impunity.  If this holds, tectonic events may be on the horizon between Israel and Iran.

America First.  We have our own problems to solve, China for example.  Nothing we do in the Mideast will change our rivalry with China..  Biden and Nethanyu talked, he may have said go for it or show some restraint.  Either way, it does not matter,  Israel can take care of itself as you have said many times.  The question remains, can the US take care of itself or will it fracture into civil war as you have so many times predicted that I now believe? There is nothing for us to gain by getting more deeply involved and it is ridiculous to believe that we can contribute anything to solving it.  In fact Israel may be  much better off if we keep selling them weapons and otherwise keep out.

We may like to think of ourselves as an international force for good, but we have biffed it as many times as we have helped anybody.   

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Posted (edited)

I'M not sure how my statement is being answered here.  I'm not saying we have an obligation to fight Israel's battles for them.  In truth we NEVER have put boots on the ground in Israel in that context.  My point is that Biden's administration has been exerting pressure on Israel to make them get in line with the administration's policies and Netanyahu has balked.  His support is growing as a result.  It's no secret that I believe it's Obama calling the shots and there is NO love lost between he and Bibi.  I hope Israel finishes the job this time because they have NO friends in the region nor in the U.S. government.  EVERY nation has a right to self-defense.

Edited by and then

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11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I also can not confirm your comments about the Palestinians storing rockets and launchers that you say they are doing.

I didn't say the Palestinians were doing that.  I was referring to the Lebanese. The Palestinians do not attempt to resist the Hamas and when the Hamas and other elements in Gaza attack Israeli civilians the citizens in Gaza are not going to be effective shields to protect the murderers who hide behind them.  

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Manwon Lender
3 minutes ago, and then said:

I didn't say the Palestinians were doing that.  I was referring to the Lebanese. The Palestinians do not attempt to resist the Hamas and when the Hamas and other elements in Gaza attack Israeli civilians the citizens in Gaza are not going to be effective shields to protect the murderers who hide behind them.  

In reality the Palestinians can't resist Hamas or Hezbola, if they try to do so they will be killed. So like I said the Palestinians are nothing but pawns, and they also become the collateral damage in any conflict between Hamas, Hezbola, and the Israelis. This is a fact of life, and it hasn't changed in 50 years.

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3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

In reality the Palestinians can't resist Hamas or Hezbola, if they try to do so they will be killed. So like I said the Palestinians are nothing but pawns, and they also become the collateral damage in any conflict between Hamas, Hezbola, and the Israelis. This is a fact of life, and it hasn't changed in 50 years.

I don't disagree.  My point is that when one side is willing to use human shields to keep their enemies from attacking in retribution, it makes the conflict impossible to win.  Israel does not owe anyone that kind of leverage.  The Hizballah in southern Lebanon have spent Iranian funds to rebuild the damage done by the IDF in the last war, including huge amounts of new housing for those who were made homeless.  The "catch" was that the residents had to accept the stashing of munitions in those homes.  The IDF chief went public with not only this information, they actually provided a map showing where these caches were located.  They then made it as clear as they could that when the Hizballah attack Israel again, those residents cannot expect Israel to hold it's fire.  They've been warned that as soon as the shooting begins, they need to flee because EVERY rocket launching site or munitions stash will be targeted.

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Manwon Lender
2 minutes ago, and then said:

I don't disagree.  My point is that when one side is willing to use human shields to keep their enemies from attacking in retribution, it makes the conflict impossible to win.  Israel does not owe anyone that kind of leverage.  The Hizballah in southern Lebanon have spent Iranian funds to rebuild the damage done by the IDF in the last war, including huge amounts of new housing for those who were made homeless.  The "catch" was that the residents had to accept the stashing of munitions in those homes.  The IDF chief went public with not only this information, they actually provided a map showing where these caches were located.  They then made it as clear as they could that when the Hizballah attack Israel again, those residents cannot expect Israel to hold it's fire.  They've been warned that as soon as the shooting begins, they need to flee because EVERY rocket launching site or munitions stash will be targeted.

Yes and that proves my original point. The Palestinians are nothing but collateral damage that both sides use. The Israelis won't except them as part of their population and the terrorists use them as shields, so basically they are treated as sacrificial lambs and they receive no justice. If Israel excepted them they could no longer be use as shields by the terrorists. All the Palestinians want is a place to call home, and this fact has been a sticking point for more than 50 years. They are a stateless people who do all the dying when these conflicts erupt. However, like I also said, the only people who have the power to change this is the Israelis, because the terrorists like the status quo just like it is now.

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, and then said:

I'M not sure how my statement is being answered here.  I'm not saying we have an obligation to fight Israel's battles for them.  In truth we NEVER have put boots on the ground in Israel in that context.  My point is that Biden's administration has been exerting pressure on Israel to make them get in line with the administration's policies and Netanyahu has balked.  His support is growing as a result. 

Well I think you are probably right about that.  There is some pressure to exert, but not much.  We are not going to cut off the sale of arms to them.  As you say, we have never put boots on the ground there, but that is never a thing they have needed or will need.  Biden made his public position clear, he said Israel has a right to defend itself.  Maybe he wishes Bibi would tone it down a bit but there is not much he can do to force it.  Most people wish that civilians were not being killed on either side. US policy makers would  be uncomfortable if the Palestinian death toll rises into the hundreds. 

I say this without malice to anyone, I don't think we can help solve this situation.  We are not going to bring these people to a peace agreement as a third party mediator with nothing to offer to either side.  Soft power or diplomacy by the US is just not enough to do it.  We can't use threats, Israel is our ally and the Palestinians are not our enemies.  

Meanwhile we have our own problems.  Neither Israel nor the Palestinians will help us in our domestic situation.  For that matter, nobody will.  

 

 

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13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Biden made his public position clear, he said Israel has a right to defend itself. 

That's his public position.  I've come across several reports that his State Department is basically a reconstituted copy of Obama's and they are applying pressure and even threats to force Israel to back down.  Some may consider it a bit of Schadenfreude on my part but I find it refreshing that Obama's efforts to finish the job against Bibi are failing.  In fact, his efforts, along with the unrelenting moves by the Liberal element in Israel have created a situation where Bibi will be removed at some point.  For now, that has created a situation where Netanyahu can act and the world be damned.  Funny how things often don't go to plan for the schemers.

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Tatetopa
12 minutes ago, and then said:

That's his public position.  I've come across several reports that his State Department is basically a reconstituted copy of Obama's and they are applying pressure and even threats to force Israel to back down. 

Of course there is a private side to our policy as well, however the public statement is how most of the world will perceive us.  Same goes for past dealings.  You make the assumption it was all animus on the part of Obama, It is also possible that Netenyahu manipulated the US into some situations we did not want to be in. 

Still it is true that he can act and the world be damned.  Any leader in the world can do as much as NK has proven.   Your last sentence is a tell for the ages, it applies in this situation as well as many others that we are experiencing.  The Israelis  are suffering as well as  the Palestinians, a plea for moderation is about all an outsider can do in this conflict.  Netanyahu seems likely to stay in power, what his direction brings to the prosperity of Israel is yet to be seen.  

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, and then said:

That's his public position.  I've come across several reports that his State Department is basically a reconstituted copy of Obama's and they are applying pressure and even threats to force Israel to back down. 

Or maybe some of your American heroes do not like Jewish space based secret lasers starting fires in California to threaten us.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/marjorie-taylor-greene-qanon-wildfires-space-laser-rothschild-execute.html

GOP Congresswoman Blamed Wildfires on Secret Jewish Space Laser.

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RoofGardener

"...At least 35 killed in Gaza.."

Indeed. At least 25 of them where by HAMAS rockets that misfired and fell short INSIDE Gaza ! 

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RoofGardener

It appears that Israel is increasing the number of troops it has on the borders with Gaza. It has also called up about 7000 army reservists. 

Operation Protective Edge II ? 

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On 5/12/2021 at 9:28 PM, Tatetopa said:

We are not going to bring these people to a peace agreement as a third party mediator with nothing to offer to either side.  Soft power or diplomacy by the US is just not enough to do it.

IMO, it's been clear for several decades at least, that there is no way to bring peace in this conflict.  BOTH sides have to want it and when one side literally speaks of "loving death" the way others love (insert some carnal element) then there is no starting point even for discussion.  Israelis will never have true peace until the last Palestinian "leaves the building".  It's a crying shame but it's also the truth.  The very worst aspect of this is that millions of young Palestinians WOULD be willing to let old scores and blood lettings rest if they could move forward and have a better life.  Unfortunately, the thugs in the Hamas and the other groups will never allow that because once the "resistance" is gone, so is their meal ticket.

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On 5/13/2021 at 5:20 PM, RoofGardener said:

It appears that Israel is increasing the number of troops it has on the borders with Gaza. It has also called up about 7000 army reservists. 

Operation Protective Edge II ? 

From listening to Gantz and Netanyahu, IF the troops move in, they will not stop regardless of which UN or U.S. entity demands it.  They plan on rooting the leadership out of their holes by whatever means are necessary.  A lot of young IDF soldiers will die and a vastly higher number of Palestinians will die alongside them.  Hamas owns this chaos, they lit the fire.  I sincerely hope this will be the last time Israel has to go into this urban cesspool but I'm not encouraged.  What WILL happen is when Israel's leaders balk at Biden's pressure it is apt to change the U.S. policy toward Israel, possibly forever.  

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and then

BTW... 5/14/1948

A new nation is "born in a day".

AM YISRAEL CHAI!

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acidhead

It's midnight in Tel Aviv right this second 

 

 

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Setton
2 hours ago, acidhead said:

It's midnight in Tel Aviv right this second 

 

 

Says the country that just bombed a refugee camp...

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acidhead

 

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Manwon Lender
On 5/14/2021 at 1:23 AM, and then said:

That's his public position.  I've come across several reports that his State Department is basically a reconstituted copy of Obama's and they are applying pressure and even threats to force Israel to back down.  Some may consider it a bit of Schadenfreude on my part but I find it refreshing that Obama's efforts to finish the job against Bibi are failing.  In fact, his efforts, along with the unrelenting moves by the Liberal element in Israel have created a situation where Bibi will be removed at some point.  For now, that has created a situation where Netanyahu can act and the world be damned.  Funny how things often don't go to plan for the schemers.

Do you have links to any of these reports, it sounds like a very interesting read. I have done some searches and I can't find anything on the subject.

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