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Corvus corone, the common crow


Abramelin
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I wasn't sure where to post my story about this coïncidence and me connecting dots.

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Outstanding stuff @Abramelin!

Touching on several of my favorite topics in one go...  i've been cultivating a relationship with our local corvus corvidae population for two decades now)

Thank you for sharing.

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Thanks for this @Abramelin.   My mother used to grow a variety of artemisia because her grandmother's middle name was that Artemisia.  It didn't survive when I moved to Texas and I have thought about getting some more.

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As it relates to Ravens... I've been following and enjoying watching Fable the Raven on this youtube aviary channel.

She's a hoot.  Here's a link if anyone else is interested.

 

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Bl**dy brilliant!! :w00t: I love your thought process. This is very exciting! Sounds as if, at the very least, it would relieve a lot of discomfort and limit the formation of scar tissue. I hope she gets enough funding to continue with her research. :tu:

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22 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Bl**dy brilliant!! :w00t: I love your thought process. This is very exciting! Sounds as if, at the very least, it would relieve a lot of discomfort and limit the formation of scar tissue. I hope she gets enough funding to continue with her research. :tu:

I was thinking of the poorer countries: this herb is easy to grow.

It won't cure the disease, but it will help to alleviate the symptoms.

 

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  • 9 months later...
18 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Makes me wonder if the instigators of witch burning were the ancestors of today's  pharma tycoons.  Just kidding. 

You are kidding, but it would be mind-blowing if we found out the ancestors of the pharma mafia were those witch hunters from the past.

Damn.

 

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Seems to me that there is more similarity between big pharma today and the witches of the past 

Both are distrusted, and even hated, by some, despite the good they do 

Like all crafts people, "witches"  expected to be paid, in some form, by their customers 

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38 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Seems to me that there is more similarity between big pharma today and the witches of the past 

Both are distrusted, and even hated, by some, despite the good they do 

Like all crafts people, "witches"  expected to be paid, in some form, by their customers 

Hi Walker

Those feelings of distrust didn't happen till after Christianity and for at least the last 100 thousand years shaman and witch doctors were highly respected in their groups. For Christianity god will heal you so no need for competition.

Edited by jmccr8
which witch
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25 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Those feelings of distrust didn't happen till after Christianity and for at least the last 100 thousand years shaman and which doctors were highly respected in their groups. For Christianity god will heal you so no need for competition.

True up to a point, and in part. 

However, anyone ( and  a woman especially ) who operates outside the bounds of accepted or "legal" practice has always been treated with some distrust by many Eg a woman who could heal you could also kill you (or your animals)    A woman who could make someone love you could also make them hate you. Thus you might always be wary of them  Often, but not always, they lived outside of other social norms eg were not married /lived alone or were not normal (perhaps had a  form of mental illness)  Of course this often occurred because a single woman had to find a way to survive and make  a living.

  Druids ,  for example, were often feared by their communities as  were  Native Australian  Kurdaitcha/  Gadaidga men who, in native belief, could both heal and kill  you with magic. Magic was often associated with sexuality /virginity , which could also cause tensions in early communities . 

quote

The Australian Aborigines of Queensland’s Channel Country were impressed by the supernatural powers of the “bush” Aborigines of the Gulf Country to their north, and regarded them with a certain admiration. But it was an admiration tinged with fear. The Channel Country “shamans” tended to downplay the extent of their powers and believed the northerners, more attuned to the ways of old, were in closer touch with the spirits, and therefore could wield far greater power. “Don’t spit on the ground, or urinate anywhere near where they might walk,” I was warned. “They might do something to you.” They advised me that if I asked too many questions, I might be bewitched. “The Gulf Country. That’s where the real shamans are.”

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/seeking-shaman

The whole article is a very interesting read 

Edited by Mr Walker
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7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

True up to a point, and in part. 

However, anyone ( and  a woman especially ) who operates outside the bounds of accepted or "legal" practice has always been treated with some distrust by many Eg a woman who could heal you could also kill you (or your animals)    A woman who could make someone love you could also make them hate you. Thus you might always be wary of them  Often, but not always, they lived outside of other social norms eg were not married /lived alone or were not normal (perhaps had a  form of mental illness)  Of course this often occurred because a single woman had to find a way to survive and make  a living.

  Druids ,  for example, were often feared by their communities as  were  Native Australian  Kurdaitcha/  Gadaidga men who, in native belief, could both heal and kill  you with magic Magic was often associated with sexuality /virginity , which could also cause tensions in early communities . 

Hi Walker

*spam filter*s are not research.:lol:

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On 2/15/2022 at 5:31 PM, Tatetopa said:

Makes me wonder if the instigators of witch burning were the ancestors of today's  pharma tycoons.  Just kidding. 

Bible uses the word sorcery which is translated from pharmakeia in the Greek.

https://biblehub.com/greek/5331.htm

Quote

from pharmakeuó (to administer drugs)
Definition
the use of medicine, drugs or spells
NASB Translation
sorceries (1), sorcery (2).

 

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On 2/17/2022 at 10:53 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

*spam filter*s are not research.:lol:

 I dont know what you mean

Anthropology , sociology, history,, politics and literature all have  evidences of how people with differences are treated throughout time and across all societies 

Women are almost always treated  with greater suspicion in patriarchal societies Hence the Salem witch trials didn't find any warlocks  

Magic is always a two edged sword. both in its use, and application. ie to heal/ harm, or with benevolent /malicious intent.  Whether its used for personal gain, or to hep others 

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In astrology, Corvus is probably the parazodiac between the zodiac constellations Libra to the west and Virgo to the east (judgement and re-birth). It's close to the ecliptic and the 180' equinox Meridian or mid-longitude meets the 0' Celestial Equator or mid-latitude. And crows or ravens or blackbirds are symbolic of death in our (North American) culture, along with the grim reaper and the skeleton figure.

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12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Hence the Salem witch trials didn't find any warlocks  

Four men were hanged in Salem for witchcraft; one other man was killed for failing to plead to the charge of witchcraft.

https://www.biography.com/news/salem-witch-trials-facts

Google is your friend, Mr W. Maybe you'll find material there to add to your posts.

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When someone with claims to having photographic memory forgets to load the brain... 

~

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20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I dont know what you mean

Anthropology , sociology, history,, politics and literature all have  evidences of how people with differences are treated throughout time and across all societies 

Women are almost always treated  with greater suspicion in patriarchal societies Hence the Salem witch trials didn't find any warlocks  

Magic is always a two edged sword. both in its use, and application. ie to heal/ harm, or with benevolent /malicious intent.  Whether its used for personal gain, or to hep others 

Hi Walker

How's things going, good I hope.

You haven't shown anything that counters my earlier post about Christianity being the biggest factor in witch hunting persecution. Yes anyone could make a false claim against anyone about witchcraft and usually it occurred in Christian communities. Will leave you some reading to ponder before your next answer.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Innocent-VIII

Innocent VIII, original name Giovanni Battista Cibo, (born 1432, Genoa—died July 25/26, 1492, Rome), pope from 1484 to 1492.

Named bishop of Savona, Italy, in 1467 by Pope Paul II, he was made cardinal in 1473 by Pope Sixtus IV, whom he succeeded. His election was manipulated by Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere (later Pope Julius II), whose tool Innocent remained. The executions of persons thought to be practicing witchcraft were increasing throughout western Europe. In a bull of 1484 Innocent acknowledged belief in witchcraft, condemned it, and then dispatched inquisitors to Germany to try witches. In 1486 he persecuted one of the chief exponents of Renaissance Platonism, Pico della Mirandola, by condemning his theses and prohibiting his defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

The Malleus Maleficarum,[2] usually translated as the Hammer of Witches,[3][a] is the best known treatise on witchcraft.[6][7] It was written by the Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer (under his Latinized name Henricus Institor) and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1486. It has been described as the compendium of literature in demonology of the 15th century. The top theologians of the Inquisition at the Faculty of Cologne condemned the book as recommending unethical and illegal procedures, as well as being inconsistent with Catholic doctrines of demonology.

The Malleus elevates sorcery to the criminal status of heresy and recommends that secular courts prosecute it as such. The Malleus suggests torture to effectively obtain confessions and the death penalty as the only certain remedy against the evils of witchcraft. At the time of its publication, heretics were frequently punished to be burned alive at the stake[8] and the Malleus encouraged the same treatment of witches. The book had a strong influence on culture for several centuries.[citation needed]

Jacob Sprenger's name was added as an author beginning in 1519, 33 years after the book's first publication and 24 years after Sprenger's death; but the veracity of this late addition has been questioned by many historians for various reasons. Kramer wrote the Malleus following his expulsion from Innsbruck by the local bishop, due to charges of illegal behavior against Kramer himself, and because of Kramer's obsession with the sexual habits of one of the accused, Helena Scheuberin, which led the other tribunal members to suspend the trial.

The book was later used by royal courts during the Renaissance, and contributed to the increasingly brutal prosecution of witchcraft during the 16th and 17th centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summis_desiderantes_affectibus

Summis desiderantes affectibus (Latin for "desiring with supreme ardor"), sometimes abbreviated to Summis desiderantes[1][2] was a papal bull regarding witchcraft issued by Pope Innocent VIII on 5 December 1484.

Witches and the Church[edit]

Belief in witchcraft is ancient. Deuteronomy 18:11–12 in the Hebrew Bible states: "Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead."

Pope Gregory VII wrote to Harald III of Denmark in 1080 forbidding witches to be put to death upon presumption of their having caused storms or failure of crops or pestilence. According to Herbert Thurston, the fierce denunciation and persecution of supposed sorceresses which characterized the witchhunts of a later age, were not generally found in the first thirteen hundred years of the Christian era.[3]

According to historians such as Martin Del Rio and P.G. Maxwell-Stuart, "The early Church had set out the distinctions between white and black magic... The penalties were restricted to confession, repentance, and charitable work".[4]

Dominican Inquisition origin[edit]

The bull was written in response to the request of Dominican Inquisitor Heinrich Kramer for explicit authority to prosecute witchcraft in Germany, after he was refused assistance by the local ecclesiastical authorities,[2] who maintained that as the letter of deputation did not specifically mention where the inquisitors may operate, they could not legally exercise their functions in their areas. The bull sought to remedy this jurisdictional dispute by specifically identifying the dioceses of Mainz, Köln, Trier, Salzburg, and Bremen.[5]

Innocent's Bull enacted nothing new. Its direct purport was to ratify the powers already conferred upon Kramer (also known as "Henry Institoris") and James Sprenger to deal with witchcraft as well as heresy, and it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg (then Albert of Palatinate-Mosbach) to lend the inquisitors all possible support.[3] Some scholars view the bull as "clearly political", motivated by jurisdictional disputes between the local German Catholic priests and clerics from the Office of the Inquisition who answered more directly to the pope.[6]

Edited to add

There is no other time in recorded history prior to the Catholic church is there evidence of these types of persecutions.

 

 

Edited by jmccr8
the usual
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On 2/23/2022 at 4:45 AM, Solipsi Rai said:

And crows or ravens or blackbirds are symbolic of death in our (North American) culture, along with the grim reaper and the skeleton figure.

But not in Native American culture; there they symbolize the Trickster and the Creator god.

Edited by Abramelin
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23 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

But not in Native American culture; there they symbolize the Trickster and the Creator god.

Not Navajo, to them the coyote is the trickster and they don't envision a "creator god" in the context that you are referring to, or any christian sense.   The only thing I found was "Owls, crows, mice, and coyotes are considered helpers of the witches and evil spirits. "  But I am not sure about the word witches, I never heard a Navajo say anything about witches.  Maybe they have a word that only loosley translates into english as that, and because we do  not really understand their culture that is the word that someone used.

Edited by Desertrat56
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On 2/22/2022 at 7:45 PM, Solipsi Rai said:

And crows or ravens or blackbirds are symbolic of death in our (North American) culture, along with the grim reaper and the skeleton figure.

Not in the majority of  North American cultures.  The owl is more commonly a messenger of death or ominous portents.  As @Abramelin says above, like coyote they can be a trickster of positive force.  There were no reapers until Europeans showed up with fields of grain and the analogy of a grim reaper harvesting humans like a reaper harvests a field of grain.  Central America does have skeleton symbolism, not all of it ominous.  Day of the Dead is more about loving memory of the departed than fear of death.   In the Pacific Northwest Raven stories are generally creative, creating the world, releasing people into the world and, like Prometheus, bringing the gift of fire.   If you live close to nature, corvids seem wise and  sometimes funny.  They have a loyalty to their families and a fierce courage attacking raptors that threaten their brood. 

For Europeans, raven and wolf were more often battlefield scavengers and symbols of death and ruin.  Still Odin had his ravens to fly out daily and bring him news.

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3 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Not Navajo, to them the coyote is the trickster and they don't envision a "creator god" in the context that you are referring to, or any christian sense.   The only thing I found was "Owls, crows, mice, and coyotes are considered helpers of the witches and evil spirits. "  But I am not sure about the word witches, I never heard a Navajo say anything about witches.  Maybe they have a word that only loosley translates into english as that, and because we do  not really understand their culture that is the word that someone used.

Maybe I should have been more specific: the Native Americans of the North West Pacific region.

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/totems-to-turquoise/native-american-cosmology/raven-the-trickster

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On 2/23/2022 at 10:41 PM, eight bits said:

Four men were hanged in Salem for witchcraft; one other man was killed for failing to plead to the charge of witchcraft.

https://www.biography.com/news/salem-witch-trials-facts

Google is your friend, Mr W. Maybe you'll find material there to add to your posts.

I suspected this and should have checked. I probably relied too much on the  common perception and the commonly accepted version.  But you will understand my excuse. I had  to go walk the dogs and didn't take the time to check :) 

None the less, my basic point holds true  14 women hanged,  5 men hanged and ne crushed  ie ina patriarchal society women ere far more likely to be victims of not only witchcraft  accusations bit other "crimes " like adultery .

It is interesting that, in the Salem trials, at least some of the men had  previous civil and religious conflicts with local authorities, including religious authorities   

 

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On 2/24/2022 at 6:51 AM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

How's things going, good I hope.

You haven't shown anything that counters my earlier post about Christianity being the biggest factor in witch hunting persecution. Yes anyone could make a false claim against anyone about witchcraft and usually it occurred in Christian communities. Will leave you some reading to ponder before your next answer.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Innocent-VIII

Innocent VIII, original name Giovanni Battista Cibo, (born 1432, Genoa—died July 25/26, 1492, Rome), pope from 1484 to 1492.

Named bishop of Savona, Italy, in 1467 by Pope Paul II, he was made cardinal in 1473 by Pope Sixtus IV, whom he succeeded. His election was manipulated by Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere (later Pope Julius II), whose tool Innocent remained. The executions of persons thought to be practicing witchcraft were increasing throughout western Europe. In a bull of 1484 Innocent acknowledged belief in witchcraft, condemned it, and then dispatched inquisitors to Germany to try witches. In 1486 he persecuted one of the chief exponents of Renaissance Platonism, Pico della Mirandola, by condemning his theses and prohibiting his defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum

The Malleus Maleficarum,[2] usually translated as the Hammer of Witches,[3][a] is the best known treatise on witchcraft.[6][7] It was written by the Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer (under his Latinized name Henricus Institor) and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1486. It has been described as the compendium of literature in demonology of the 15th century. The top theologians of the Inquisition at the Faculty of Cologne condemned the book as recommending unethical and illegal procedures, as well as being inconsistent with Catholic doctrines of demonology.

The Malleus elevates sorcery to the criminal status of heresy and recommends that secular courts prosecute it as such. The Malleus suggests torture to effectively obtain confessions and the death penalty as the only certain remedy against the evils of witchcraft. At the time of its publication, heretics were frequently punished to be burned alive at the stake[8] and the Malleus encouraged the same treatment of witches. The book had a strong influence on culture for several centuries.[citation needed]

Jacob Sprenger's name was added as an author beginning in 1519, 33 years after the book's first publication and 24 years after Sprenger's death; but the veracity of this late addition has been questioned by many historians for various reasons. Kramer wrote the Malleus following his expulsion from Innsbruck by the local bishop, due to charges of illegal behavior against Kramer himself, and because of Kramer's obsession with the sexual habits of one of the accused, Helena Scheuberin, which led the other tribunal members to suspend the trial.

The book was later used by royal courts during the Renaissance, and contributed to the increasingly brutal prosecution of witchcraft during the 16th and 17th centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summis_desiderantes_affectibus

Summis desiderantes affectibus (Latin for "desiring with supreme ardor"), sometimes abbreviated to Summis desiderantes[1][2] was a papal bull regarding witchcraft issued by Pope Innocent VIII on 5 December 1484.

Witches and the Church[edit]

Belief in witchcraft is ancient. Deuteronomy 18:11–12 in the Hebrew Bible states: "Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead."

Pope Gregory VII wrote to Harald III of Denmark in 1080 forbidding witches to be put to death upon presumption of their having caused storms or failure of crops or pestilence. According to Herbert Thurston, the fierce denunciation and persecution of supposed sorceresses which characterized the witchhunts of a later age, were not generally found in the first thirteen hundred years of the Christian era.[3]

According to historians such as Martin Del Rio and P.G. Maxwell-Stuart, "The early Church had set out the distinctions between white and black magic... The penalties were restricted to confession, repentance, and charitable work".[4]

Dominican Inquisition origin[edit]

The bull was written in response to the request of Dominican Inquisitor Heinrich Kramer for explicit authority to prosecute witchcraft in Germany, after he was refused assistance by the local ecclesiastical authorities,[2] who maintained that as the letter of deputation did not specifically mention where the inquisitors may operate, they could not legally exercise their functions in their areas. The bull sought to remedy this jurisdictional dispute by specifically identifying the dioceses of Mainz, Köln, Trier, Salzburg, and Bremen.[5]

Innocent's Bull enacted nothing new. Its direct purport was to ratify the powers already conferred upon Kramer (also known as "Henry Institoris") and James Sprenger to deal with witchcraft as well as heresy, and it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg (then Albert of Palatinate-Mosbach) to lend the inquisitors all possible support.[3] Some scholars view the bull as "clearly political", motivated by jurisdictional disputes between the local German Catholic priests and clerics from the Office of the Inquisition who answered more directly to the pope.[6]

Edited to add

There is no other time in recorded history prior to the Catholic church is there evidence of these types of persecutions.

 

 

In christian societies, yes, it was the church who persecuted witches, and the bible which made them evil But of course the world existed long before Christianity and there are thousands of non christian cultures.   My point was that in ANY society   the different or the powerless will always be she most common victims. Any   society expects (and often even requires)  each member  to fit within certain expectations and parameters. 

Those who challenged the beliefs, as well as the authority, of a society were often punished 

Eg The control by druids of the population Then the "extermination" of the druids by the  Romans 

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